HH bug got me ... Part One!

[Mudd]

X2 what RC said.....!!

God bless,Mudd

[David Mitchell]

I'll ditto that RC.

Thanks RC...that is good to know.  I was counting on a "good deal"  

Rob suggested that I talk with the bowyer - give him parameters and have one made for me.  I'll prolly do that up front 'till I feel more at ease to pick-up a good used one tho..

It does seem there are a few experienced Hill boys here that don't agree on this issue.. not surprising.

I am at the beginning of my learning curve here.  Just beginning to weigh these considerations.

Thanks again..

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by SpankyNeal:
Guys the facts are that alot of Hill bows today are built to a formula for the masses! Riser length, limb tapers, and tiller all have to be adjusted to an archers EXACT draw, hand width, and grip depth and not just to bow length in order to get the proper arc in the limbs for EACH archer! You absolutly will not fit to the same length bow from one bowyer to the next and get optimum performance from each. A 68-69" bow might work fine for you from one bowyer, but from the next it either stacks or is too slow and thumpy! As I stated previously, the difference in a Hill bow that has truly been fit to you and one that has not, is like the difference between night and day...there is NO comparison! As for the stuff printed in older writings from Hill and Schultz, they didn't write everything they knew and they continued to refine there bows after those texts were written. The later information was passed only to a select few people especially from John who was very tight-mouthed about his designs. In his later years as John refined his designs and started to incorporate different profiles, he actually shot bows much shorter and lighter than he did early on! I say all this to remind us all that designs and materials continue to evolve making your bowyer the only true source of accurate up to date information for what you need now!

Spanky

i don't believe that at all.  not in my experience after getting a glut of craig built hills, and a few by other far lesser known bowyers.

the real problem is that a LOT of hill style longbow archers don't know what they're ordering or what to specifically request.

there COULD BE some esoteric nuances that a 'bow-tique bowyer' could offer over a more 'mass produced' bow such as what craig offers.  in fairness, craig is NOT a mass producing production line bow company, he WILL listen to you and in most cases he'll accommodate your longbow needs and requirements.  this is true for the very vast majority of bowyers.  you just need to know what to order.  for you.  not for me.

so what's really left?  

overall bow design, materials, craftsmanship, tillering, finishing.  pick a bowyer and get yer feet wet.  we've all been there and it's all a crap shoot of sorts.  just look at the classifieds.

lets also put all of the bow design, bow materials, length vs width, "what's best for me", yadda yadda yadda stuff in perspective - if you think that these "slight nuances" are gonna be deal makers or breakers for you to bring home the bacon, yer definitely nuttier than me, and i'm a bona fide nut case when it comes to longbows.    :D

the arrow is still the god of archery - NOT the bow.

Rob said:
"and i'm a bona fide nut case when it comes to longbows."

Rob...I figured....HA!  That's the real reason I bend your ear.  Maybe I am too picky...yeah, I am but it is the "nuances" that I like....and that is why I can take your "nutcase" list to craig and get what I want.

Rob, buddy...don't forget to take your meds..     :eek:

[Buckwheaties]

All of these "nuances" have got me wondering?? I have a Robin Hood "in the mail" to me. I talked to Craig b4 I ordered it. I told him that I have a 27" draw and a tight fitting work glove size hand. (a tight medium/ a little loose large) He suggested a 66" or 68" bow. Ok I ordered it @ 66" with a slightly smaller dished grip. I am under the impression that shooting a Hill is different than shooting most other longbows, so if that's the case, won't "I just learn to shoot it the way it is?" Like, get use to it and learn to like it? How can someone decide what's right for them without shooting alot of other Hill style bows to figure out the "nuances?" I hope my info to Craig was enough to get me in the ball park? Oh, one other question.. Can I turn a dished grip into a locator grip if I want to or is the dished design wrong to allow it?

[WESTBROOK]

What a great thread this has been! Lots of great info and Purdy bows!

Rob, I think you'll be pleased with the string follow bows. You'll find its not same as a bow that has "taken set". It'll be a sweet shooter and still push an arrow with the best of them, I know mine dont run out of gas at 20 yds!

Macatawa, you'll be fine with a 68" bow.

A Hill bow, handfull of woodies and walk in the woods...Its good for what ales ya!

Eric

 

[SpankyNeal]

Rob, I guess I don't understand exactly what I said that you don't agree with, but I did not mean that Craig or anyone else for that matter, were mass producing bows! The more nitpicky the bowyer is about your various measurements, shooting style etc. and the more you are as well, the better the bow is going to work for you. If you go to a trad expo and pick a bow off the shelf that is tillered for a 28" draw, that bow was designed for a generic, average person with a 28" draw....will it work for you maybe, maybe not! The nuances are not a make or break deal, they simply can turn a good experience into a great experience!

As for used bows, unless the bow is tillered very close to my 26.5" draw I don't buy it...works fine with other bows, but not Hills.

Spanky

[Nate Steen .]

Rob,  I'm going to politely disagree with you, no hard feelings...

Back when Hill wrote his books, he was writing to the masses, and still using mostly unfiberglassed bows.  He preferred longer bows and they fit him because of his size and draw and the durability of a longer unfiberglassed bow.  His bow formula with reflex worked for a longer bow.  He taught bowyers how to build his style of bows with these specs in mind.  At that time, he preferred those specs......

fast forward to the 70's...John Schulz was building bows how he was taught,  long and with much reflex, and his preferred bow was 68" for a 26" draw...but his bows at that time were heavily reflexed and the longer length kept them stable yet very fast shooters...but in the back of his mind, he remembers Hill tutelage about string follow bows, and he gradually changed his bowmaking to follow Hill's personal instruction.  Schulz's personal bows became much shorter...the bow in his video is only 64", because he was departing from the radical reflex bows to a softer string follow style as per Hill's instruction.  His bowmaking was modified to take advantage of Hill's preferences in bowdesign and modern materials like good fiberglass and his later bows built for Hill himself used this thinking....

fast forward to the 90's...Schulz is now only making all bamboo/wood bows following Hill's early bowmaking principles, but allowing for current technology  and making short bows sized to the individual shooter.  He shot bows as short as 62"...

I'm stating this to say that as time has progressed, the Hill style bows design as made by Hill and Schulz (his ace student) also progressed.  If we make a static statement concerning Hill's or Schulz's bow preferences,  we need to look at the time period and bow design that statement refers to, or we are in the wrong context of the statement.

Rob,  You have stated numerous times that you have had a gaggle of Hill style longbows.  I don't know how many you have now, but I wonder how many you've sold because they weren't 'right' for you....not in cosmetics, but in shooting characteristics.  You've had a chance to specify how you like the bow to be made, and yet they still might not fit you.  I've seen a photo of your bowform...in my opinion it is very much a target/recurve form.  That is not a bad thing at all. It is YOUR form.  However, I've seen way too many guys with a target/recurve form not be able to shoot a Hill style bow well, not because of the bow, but the style of shooting wasn't conducive.  The Hill style bow has it's own nuances in shooting and it's more critical of those nuances than recurves or r/d bows are.  Maybe the reason you've not found the holy grail of Hill style longbows is that your shooting style is more conducive to a r/d bow or recurve...that statement is not meant in a demeaning or derogatory way, nor does it reflect on your joy of holding and shooting a hill style longbow... it's just food for thought.  Discussions like this help newbie Hill style longbow shooter think about their choices and what fits best for them.

[tg2nd]

I know a bowyer who has learned from Schulz. If he's in the right mood he tells you the true storys about riser length, bow length, etc. But only if he's in the right mood! I think that's the point with a lot of people. There are not "secrets", but little, tiny details. These details can make a huge difference in a bow.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by SpankyNeal:
Rob, I guess I don't understand exactly what I said that you don't agree with, but I did not mean that Craig or anyone else for that matter, were mass producing bows! The more nitpicky the bowyer is about your various measurements, shooting style etc. and the more you are as well, the better the bow is going to work for you. If you go to a trad expo and pick a bow off the shelf that is tillered for a 28" draw, that bow was designed for a generic, average person with a 28" draw....will it work for you maybe, maybe not! The nuances are not a make or break deal, they simply can turn a good experience into a great experience!

As for used bows, unless the bow is tillered very close to my 26.5" draw I don't buy it...works fine with other bows, but not Hills.

Spanky

basically, your initial statement ...

   

Originally posted by SpankyNeal:
Guys the facts are that alot of Hill bows today are built to a formula for the masses! ...

as i've stated, most bowyers will make at least some accommodations to their designs, but in most cases, you gotta know what you want and know what to ask about.

the rest are all about the nuances - short or medium or long riser, every aspect of limb design, tillering, shelf design, handle and grip, and ad naseum.
 
let me repeat - the bow is not nearly as important as the arrow.  when a bow "fits" you well, then yes, that can and typically will enhance accurate consistency.  but it is NOT a panacea for criticality.  

to those who think the bow is THAT critical, you are officially absolved of your worry and pain.  go forth with a friendly longbow and your best arrows and kill something good for suppers.  

put this all into proper perspective.  we are traditional bowhunters and our weapons range from a simple rasped and scraped stick of wood to a laminated carbon/wood/glass/foam/whatever thing that has little resemblance to that primordial stick.

it DOES matter, but not that much.  really.  trust me on this.  getting a longbow that puts you in the ballpark for feel and performance isn't as difficult as some would have you believe.  really.  we all can have a tendency at times to obsess over minutiae.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Rob,  I'm going to politely disagree with you, no hard feelings...

no, not at all, sir!  it's fine and good to disagree and debate.

i'll be blunt yet again.  i don't care at all about how howard hill made or shot his longbows.  

i care about the looks of an american flat longbow, the long, narrow and thickish limbs, the short riser and well bent limbs.  this is mostly about aesthetics and not cast performance because most any decent r/d "longbow" will outperform the best "hill style" longbow, pound for pound of holding weight with the same arrow.

to those who wish to emulate howard or john or any other howard-like disciple, cool.  have at it.  i will tell you this - you are better off working on your own form, as it applies to your physique than someone else's if you wish to excel at trad bowhunting.  

and for the record, nate, i do NOT have a "target/recurve form".  you want to discuss the nuances of that, pm me.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by tg2nd:
I know a bowyer who has learned from Schulz. If he's in the right mood he tells you the true storys about riser length, bow length, etc. But only if he's in the right mood! I think that's the point with a lot of people. There are not "secrets", but little, tiny details. These details can make a huge difference in a bow.

no no no, those differences MIGHT make some kinda difference in a bow.  maybe.  

there are *SO* many variables in a piece of wood 'n' glass that to think a human can clone that precise goodness from bow to bow is like believing in the tooth fairy.  i'm a luthier, i equate bow building with acoustic quitar making - if someone knew how to clone either *perfectly*, every time, they would be ... GOD.   :cool:  

however, a good bowyer should be able to make your bow journey easier in many ways, and deliver a bow to you that, for the very most part, will make you a happy archer and hunter.

[tg2nd]

Perhaps i believe in the tooth fairy?? (brought me some money as a child)  

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by tg2nd:
Perhaps i believe in the tooth fairy?? (brought me some money as a child)      

yeah, and ya know what pt barnum said?  

[tg2nd]

Sorry, but I don't know pt barnum or what he said. Hope you tell me.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

PT Branum said "A Sucker born every minute"

My first hill longbows were made by Schulz, then Schulz went on to make his own trimmer line.  The next Hill bows I got were not made by Craig or Schulz.  One made by Meggs was quite different than either one, not a bad bow.  One day I made a tiller board and took a 66" Schulz and traced it at different draw lengths.  When comparing the two i noticed quite a difference in how they bent.  The Meggs bent much more at the handle, so I changed it to match the Schulz and then went a little further.  I flight shot the bow many times before I did this.  In the end I reduced the poundage of the bow by 8 pounds and it did not slow down at all.  It shot the same arrow, with same authority, the same distance.  I had another longer much heavier Hill, not built by Craig, I was tempted to try something with that one, but the tips were nearly as thick as the rest of the limb.  But I did flight shoot it.  it would not shoot as stiff a spine as the 64 pound Schulz, which was 25 pounds lighter nor would it shoot any arrow as far. I sold it to someone that thought he had to have.  Todays hills are more like those first hills, with a gentler reflex than the Meggs i had or the other ones.  I say all this to point out that a little change here and there in the Hill style bows that I have seen over the years can make a substantial difference.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by pavan:
...I say all this to point out that a little change here and there in the Hill style bows that I have seen over the years can make a substantial difference.

and i do believe you and that you are correct, sir.

however, i consider that a "substantial difference" be put into the grander scheme of things, to whit, is it so large a difference as to be night and day, or at the other end is it a subtle difference?  and to who - me or you or ... ?  what does all of this really mean to the average trad bowhunter?

iow, each of us are 'experiments of one' when it comes to subjective stuff like longbows.  and each of us has likes and dislikes, and some of these qualities are poles apart.  

in the end, all that matters is bow that is a joy to the eyes, feels good in the hand, pulls sweetly, releases gently, and helps your good arrow to hit the mark and bring home the game.

it's not rocket science, nor does it ever need be.

all the rest is curious interest.

[Ben Maher]

Rob stated ...
 

 in the end, all that matters is bow that is a joy to the eyes, feels good in the hand, pulls sweetly, releases gently, and helps your good arrow to hit the mark and bring home the game  

Sums it up nicely !