some thoughts on the quipment debate

[wapiti]

Here is some thoughts of some of my feelings on the equipment debate that rages from all our "friends" in R&D and marketing of outdoor products. I am not against them just the use of much of it while bowhunting.


  "It is the opinion of many that it is ok to use electronice devices, range finders, soda straws for arrows etc etc etc. I agree they can be useful. I think we need to draw the line and here is one way to think about it. Food dosen't make you fat. Eating everything in sight will! Eating a little chocolate dosn't hurt either but eat enough of it and most will have have health problems! Look at bowhunting the same way. If you use enough of these devices and begin to lean on them to to replace the skills required to get within close range and make a good shot, track and recover that animal then bowhunting is going to suffer the same fate as ones health on a poor diet. Lets put the activity of bowhunting back up
where it belongs. If you like a challenge but just don't want to learn to get up close and personal with the animal there are ways to kill the animal woithout eroding bowhunting. One would be to use a primative muzzlleloader during the general rifle "

[Old Ways]

wapiti,

I just read your post and thought it was interesting. Just the other day I stopped by a local archery shop. It use to be small with just the basics. Now it was huge. Filled with all this high tech stuff. Guys where in there spending a fortune on all that $#!+. What the heck is happening to hunting? All these magazines and shows that suppport using that stuff are producing a bunch of consumers not hunters. Funny thing is man had successfully hunted game for 1000s of years with just the basic bow and arrow and did just fine. Now you have these sissy wannabe hunters that rely on gadgets not skill. Just makes me shake my head and sigh.

[JStark]

It's probably tough on the owners, too.  Getting bomarded with all the latest gadgetry to sell.  Going to industry events and seeing other guys really selling!  

If it would make me a decent living, pay for my house and get my kids through school without my wife working, then I'd jump right into selling all trad. gear.  

But, seeing as I live in California, I don't see that happening any time soon.  Anybody here pay a grand per month to live in a trailerhouse?  I have.  

It must stink to be the middle man.  Consumers running over you to buy the latest piece of plastic crap from China, and dealers shoving it down your throat...

[ratgunner]

The way hunters buy all that stuff really helps the economy and supports the right to hunt.Think about it.If you and I dont wanna use it fine,who cares if Joe Shmoe is useing it ?

[Al Dente]

The problem is that there is no line in the sand to say where it ends.  As long as manufacturers can upgrade and make technological advances, they will...to sell their product as the latest and the greatest.

Hunting should not be easy, that's why it's called hunting and not shopping.

With all of these innovations, you are taking YOU out of the whole loop and learning process.  The hunter becomes a slave to his/her equipment, and relying on it solely to do the task of killing an animal as quickly and ethically as possible.  When that doesn't happen, they don't blame themselves, they blame their equipment.  The more compicated tackle becomes the more prone it is to failure.

What if your range finder is out of whack and the distance isn't true and you wound the animal becuase you're not as adept as you should be in judging yardage?  What happens then?

We've all seen the shows and videos where the "hunter" or should I say sniper shoots a ram from 2 mountains away, and the guide congratulates him on making a great shot.  Great shot, maybe, lucky shot, hell yes.  Hunting should be an uo close and personal experience, not a target shoot.  There's plenty of competitions for that all across the country.

There must come a time when it is said that it's too much and it needs to stop.  Compound bows are nocking on the door to 99% let-off, then what?  

Everyone was up in arms at the Texas outfitter that had the computer hunting package on his ranch.  You paid a fee to "hunt" an animal from your computer.  You guided the scope and pulled the trigger via you computer, wherever the hell you were.  That's hunting, I think not, but it's technology isn't it?  If you disagree with that but want to keep pushing the envelope on other avneues, then you're a hypocrite in my opinion.

I hunt with a stick and string to get away from the bells and whistles that scream at you from the shelves and catalogs.  K-I-S-S!!!!

While it is a free marketplace, these manufacturers are turning a blind eye to the much bigger problem on hand.  You're taking the sportsmanship out of the sport.  There will be no more challenge and then there will be backlash from the public arena towards ALL hunters.

[vermonster13]

Lots of guys hunt with rifles yet nationally less than 20% harvest animals. I think guys worry to much about things that aren't real issues and let the things that are most important slide by. If we don't increase hunter recruitment, land access and keep a lid on the diseases being spread, no technology other than video games will keep hunting alive and then only as a memory.

[Sawtooth]

I've had this debate in other circles.  IMO, when the HUNT itself is eroded, the line has been crossed.  Do the gadgets make me (or anyone else) a better HUNTER?  Do they enhance my ability to track game, identify flora and fauna, recognize weather changes, build a fire, get as close as humanly possible to my quarry?  Some do, some don't.  It's not really black and white.  If it were, we'd all be shooting selfbows, knapped stone points, etc., etc.  But we're not.  As Al Dente alludes to above (and Aldo Leopold said so many years ago), "...the hunter has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct.  Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience..."  

What I've seen with younger bowhunters just coming up is that the high tech archery equipment "looks cool" and a lot of young people think in terms of "high tech" (read...fast, visually appealing, instant gratification, etc).  They aren't really thinking about the value of woodsmanship and building a body of knowledge about the outdoors that will make them a better hunter.  I see this firsthand, quite often.

[Old Ways]

One of the things that is destroying our environment  is the manufacturing processes involved to make all the junk people think they need today. This country won't seem to wake up until the planet is dead. When we by this junk we may support the economy like "good consumers" but we also share in the destruction of the planet. Every little bit counts.

A simple stick bow and wood arrows can be made with near zero environmental impact and can serve it's owner/maker well. A high tech compound has it's riser cast in a foundry, machined by coal powered electricity, uses plastic parts, requires another plant to produce it's scope, release, dampers, aluminum or carbon arrows, plastic vanes, plastic quiver, etc. has much more damaging  impact on nature to do the same job.

If we don't take a stand to be part of the solution then we are part of the problem. Each year, each day the planet get's a little sicker. Every purchase we make, every decision we make can either have a negative, nuetral or positive effect on the environment.

We have been conditioned by school, the media, peers, etc. to think newer is better, more is better, and so forth. But if we don't change our thinking and habit's the truth is that the planet will continue to suffer. Ecosystems will die off. Eventually there wont be any game to hunt anyway.

I try not to be hypocritical in saying this. I try to practice what I preach. I will not buy or eat "fast food" because those places damage the environment on many levels. I don't buy anything disposable. I think landfills are wrong and we shouldn't have stuff that needs to be thrown away. I recycle everything that can be recycled. I use renewable, low pollution forms of energy for my house. I drive as little as possable and I am currently working on a biodiesel truck so when I do have to drive it will not be another form of pollution. I plant trees and get involved in environmental clean up projects. I try to help others to think green in their lifestyle.

I'm just a guy that has noticed that man really is ruining the earth. It's not like there is another one we can go to. So even though this thread is about all this modern crap that is eroding bowhunting, it is also important to state that it is this same junk that is helping to erode the planet.

[wapiti]

Vermonster. The issue of too much technology being used is a direct effect on the things you mentioned. Recruit kids yes but do it without offering up an easy way. "Here kid, use this latest ripfire bow and needle missle carbon arrows devloped through the space program and go kill yourself a big ol deer" That is a big part of the problem. Perception by the public of what hunting is through the efforts of the hunting industry has begun to sour the 80% that don't hunt towards the 10% that do. This reduces hunter numbers, access to public land and the elecrion of officials who end up governing these activities.

[wapiti]

Old ways. To be a consumer is a good thing. It is a part of nature. The problem begins at what point are we overconsuming. I for one believe we passed that stage along time ago. I am 1/8 souix and have a strong draw to the old ways of comsuming what you NEED. Needs and wants are different. Satifying wants is natural but we are in an unnatural state of uncontrolled wants today.

[vermonster13]

If you think the compound bow offers an easy way then you are mistaken. The things you long for while they would be nice are part of world that has passed by sadly. The population of todays world couldn't begin to be supported without much of the technology that exists. There are much deeper problems that bring about these issues that are in the fabric and culture of this world that we live in. Hunting is about choice and what it means to each individual, we need to lead by example and just remember(or just look in PowWow for examples)that in this day many hunters are brought to our fold from compound bows today. Few start here anymore.

[wapiti]

I said nothing about compounds and do NOT dislike those who choose to use them. Look back at the original post and see my point that too much of anything is what is bad. Too much hi-tech is bad and that is what is killing us. Yes I was brought into the group from compounds but I also started years ago when the super speed rage was in its infancy. The newbs are starting out with the wrong ideals, reasons, drive, goals whatever. The public sees this attitude and that is aboslutely crushing us as hunters. It goes the same for rifle hunting. Technology in todays equipment isn't the only problem but it is one of the big ones. We as citizens need to stand up and say enough is enough. We can not stop technology but we can limit, change and stear its direction and the use of. I for one say enough of the attitude 'well thats the way its is today'. I think many feel the same or there wouldn't be as much traffic on this forum.

[vermonster13]

Compounds were mentioned by another participant Wapiti.

While what you say sounds good to yourself and some, we trad archers are a huge minority. To get a better idea of what you wish to oppose, visit a site like Archery Talk and read some threads.

I try to pick my battles when it comes to hunting, I have very limited resources and try to make the best I can of them. Some monsters are just to big to tackle head on. Education and leading by example are the tools we can use most effectively. Confronting other hunters or telling them the way they do something is wrong will never lead to the results we would hope for.

Also don't take this as a condemnation or attack. I try to show both sides and prevent threads from becoming to tunnel visioned at times. We're a pretty closed community here and tend to agree a lot more than not and that doesn't always prepare us well for the reality beyond us.

[wapiti]

Hey I love playing the devils advocate at times. too. Opens a few eyes now and then! The equipment issue isn't about primitive or traditional or any single "group". It is about hunting in general, at least IMHO. What sparked the whole issue is the debate going on in MT and how many want to change the long established bowhunting rules to suit those individual wants. Many want the 'no electronic devices' rule changed and allow lighted nocks. pins etc. T truly didn't start the thread to slam any one group of hunters or even archers.
  Yes I have been to trad talk and they can keep the carbon limbs and metal risers. If they can shoot em well thats great. Many like the heavy risers etc. I just don't care for the feel. I carry my Toelke not because it is the 'best' or the 'fastest' but it is what feels right to me and it is ethical and fair in my eyes and John Q. Public. The fact that I love wood just might be a factor too. LOL

[Old Ways]

Wapiti - I agree that things have gone way too far but I also believe in not giving up or going with the flow just because it is easier. I am part Native American (Ojibwa) also and I think of how our forefathers would have been sickened to see how this country has been destroyed. I also agree "we are in an unnatural state of uncontrolled wants today" as you put it and that is the point I was trying to make. People think they "need" things just because they have it presented to them. Our forefathers lived just fine with none of this crap and I wish people today could at least try to.

You are also right in saying, "The newbs are starting out with the wrong ideals, reasons, drive, goals whatever". I wasn't allowed to bow hunt until I learned to sneak up withen 10 feet of a deer. I had to learn to respect the animal before I ever got the chance to "whack" one. I also was taught that anything I killed was to be for food only so if I shot a mouse or sparrow guess what I was eating.

A thread like this can step on toes but it can get people thinking too. The magazines, commercials, hunting shows and even our peers can make us think  we can only succeed by using this or that. A few people see through it while others need a wake up call so a thread like this is good.

Vermonster13 - I agree with you that "Education and leading by example are the tools we can use most effectively". That is why I only teach traditional archery, still-hunting and stalking. I try to steer my friends, students, etc. away from the commercialization that is everywhere and especially when it comes to natural activities such as hunting. When a thread like this comes up I try to get others to see what I see. To think before they buy. To try to be part of the solution not add to the problem. You are right, "Some monsters are just to big to tackle head on" and that's where threads like this can help to get people to think for themselves based on sound reasonings of others.

[Brian Krebs]

Idaho just made equipment restrictions on muzzleloaders: because they were taking too many animals with the technology advances.
 The writing is on the wall for bowhunting seasons- they lifted restrictions on let-off and arrow weight in the same meeting.
 Fish and Game employees are openly stating: that they intend to shorten bow seasons; because of the increase in technology; and the effect upon game taken.
 Our fish and game though just makes recommendations to the fish and game commissioners. While the commissioners acted on muzzleloaders and the letoff and arrow weight rules...they have not yet made any decisions about making a 'traditional bow only' area(s). However: they have to know what fish and game biologists are thinking.
 Traditional bowhunters here have asked the commision for special traditional bow only hunts- and the loudest screams of agony in the past (when this issue was addressed before) has been from compound bow hunters- and even traditional bowhunters.. not rifle hunters.
 Idaho bowhunters are (pardon the pun) shivering in their quivers- over the fate of bowhunting seasons.
 The traditional muzzleloader seasons were excepted sometime back; and there was no screaming about it.
 The new rule change- which would not allow modern technology in the muzzleloader hunt happened; and I think the same thing should happen with traditional bowhunting.
 Because I don't want the old way of hunting with a bow to ever be punished by the actions of people using modern equipment: be it because of increased take; or increased hunter preasure or as the result of actions by those that only hunt with a bow as 'another thing to hunt with'.
 That group is our enemy; not as individuals- but in their effect as a group. This may not have struck yet in some eyes- but it is clearly a real threat.
 This 'tradgang.com' is about traditional bows; and what is best for its interests.
  I am flat out saying that making traditional only seasons- in areas where there is no existing hunting opprotunity- ( like a time period that is now closed to hunting- but is biologically a candidate for hunting) should be the thing we should support and put great efforts into.
  I know the very thought makes some want to run in fear of the unknown- but it is our duty: to stand strong.
  I am not suggesting that anything be taken away from compound bowhunters- that will happen in time by the biologists; and the muzzleloader season problem proves it.
 I am suggesting that where it is biologically ok to hunt a species; where no hunt now exists: that a traditional bow only season be established.
 I know - as I have stated from talks with fish and game officials here in Idaho- that bow seasons are going to be shortened.
 IF there is a traditional definition and seasons in place; the lost time in the bow seasons that exist now- might not include traditional bowhunters.... that is the word from our fish and game!!
 And I am aware of increased preasure from the increased technologies of bowhunting- certainly we should all not go down in a ship that we have nothing to do with- and is headed in a different direction as traditional bowhunting.

[et]

Brian, are you going to be at the ISB meeting Saturday? If you are it would be good to talk abut trad seasons.

Vermonster 13, I fully disagree with your statement "If you think the compound bow offers an easy way you are mistaken". It is the easy way, accuracy can be bought and range extended with very little practice. At lest the trad bowhunter has to work on outdoor skills to get close or spend a significant time investment on longer range shooting. Who hasn't been just out of range with their equipment and wouldn't just increasing your effective yardage by 5-10 yards led to a shot opportunity? My observations lead me to believe that the modern gadgets triple the new comers perceived effective range and doubles it for the more experienced hunter.
 I spoke with my region commissioner and made recommendations against lowering the arrow weight and as far as I know every bowhunter organization in Idaho did as well.  The reasoning for doing so was for "youth and women" hunters to have a better trajectory ie. to make it easier, we wouldn't want Jr to have to work at developing their skills would we. This push to increase hunter ranks by making it easy is flat out toxic IMO. There will always have to be new "advances" for the manufactures to stay in business and take the hunt out of hunting.

This is only site I am aware of where on hears opinions like Old Way and Wapiti and it is great to hear like minded individuals. The majority of folks that I know that share these views never visit hunting forums. I am getting so cranky about "hunters" that I am getting ready to drop out of all the organizations that I belong to. Then I get annoyed because as I see it isn't really the "hunters" it is just the "hunters" that the manufactures are creating.

I agree that the best we can do is educate and model the skills and behavior that we value. However I will not delude myself into thinking that the majority of folks I get to teach in Bowhunter Ed are not going to fall prey to the mass media publications.  
The lets all stand together, and if it’s legal its ethical argument makes me miss Paul Watson and the "Sea Shepherd" all the more.
et

[vermonster13]

ET less than 12% of bowhunters are sucessful in getting some venison each year. That doesn't translate into easy in my book. Part of the fallacy we get into is giving compounds more ability than they possess. Pope & Young were shooting farther than 99% of the compound shooters of today do.

Traditional equipment is no where near as limiting as most would like everyone to think either if you take the time to practice and shoot. Letting everyone believe that the effective range of traditional equipment is limited to 20 yards doesn't do us any favors.

[Brian Krebs]

V13- using percentages of kill is a totally misleading science.
 If of the 12% that make a kill are comprised of 90% traditional bowhunters... what would that say?
 It would come down to interpretation.
I have been in the woods hunting elk and heard cars and trucks driving up the road ; stopping; turning off the vehicle; bugling; slamming the doors of the vehicle and driving up the road further and doing it again- with another vehicle every 15 minutes... maximum.
 Now experienced hunters -with whatever bow- are not doing that; they are sitting over wallows; stalking; glassing; and as the amount of bugling is insane; by the inexperienced: not bugling.
 The success rate might not have a dang thing to do with the type of bow. It might well have to do with the type of hunter.
 So that statistic is not reflective of who is getting the kill. Is it hunters with 10 years of experience or more; is it young hunters with legs that can carry them further into the places the animals are; is it indeed the easier shot placement with a compound bow; or is it traditional bowhunters with 20 years or more experience?
  In and of itself; the percent of kill is just a statistic; not anything more than that.
  However- improving the statistic will reveal more.. then again : do you want to compare the kill percentage of people hunting with a traditional bow to a compound bow- or would you like years of experience tossed into the statistic?
  I think - like in the case here in Idaho; where the increased kill in the muzzleloader hunt led to restrictions in the equipment: was not well thought out. I like the result of it; but the thinking behind it- well I question it.
  I think the factors that effect my hunt more than anything; is the advancement of technology- not only in bows and range finders and such: but also- in the purchase and uncontrolled use of ATVs.
  Here in Idaho; we have areas where no motorized vehicles are allowed. If you hike back into these areas and an ATV zooms by - with no required off road sticker on it to identify it- there is nothing you can do about it.
 Forest service officials are limited to telling children they must wear a helmet; and they cannot legally chase an atv in an area closed to atvs- unless they do so on foot or on a horse.
  That kind of intrusion is effecting my hunting more than anything.
  The fact that there are compound bows strapped to the front of every single one of them in the fall - well that is an interesting statistic.
  The more people believe that if they can afford to buy something; it should give them more- and they should expect more- the more we suffer by hunting the old way.
  I have met atv hunters who just do not understand why a road is closed - and marked closed- when they can drive up or down a hill and get around the closed gates. They have the money- they should be able to drive where they want.
 And the fact that they are also using a bow that is supposed to make it easier- just re-enforces their mindset that breaking the law is justified.
  Think about it- who do they have to follow ? What leader is out there to set another example for them? Who is stopping them? Who dares to question them?
  How do you get into their thick  skulls; that because they took two days off to hunt; and that they have an atv that can go anywhere; and they have a tag- that they do not have the right to do whatever they have too: to kill an animal?
  It looks soooooo easy on tv - doesn't it?
And when ATV ads show 'road ends' signs morphing into ' fun begins' signs: who will hold them to the light of truth?
  When the apparent heros of bowhunting are people that hunt high fence and kill big animals consistantly: and not the beanpole; okra chomping kid with a homeade bow- that hunts for months to kill a doe: what is the average guy interested in this thing called 'bowhunting' supposed to think that 'IT' is?
 Seems like the masses of tv shows and compound hunters are stomping our ten thousand year old relationship with nature into a mudhole- yet if someone says that: the traditional world runs for cover screaming " don't make them mad!" " they will destroy us!".
  They are already working to that end.. friends.

[vermonster13]

Nothing misleading about it. Just because a compound is used, doesn't guarantee success. Just because a person doesn't choose to use Traditional equipment or hunt the same way as I do, doesn't make them less of a hunter or less ethical. What I am saying is do not judge a hunter by the equipment that they choose. We have bigger fish to fry than each other. If they ever do a study the is comprehensive on kill rates and other things by weapon beyond what has already been done, we may not like the results.