some thoughts on the quipment debate

[et]

Vermonster,
I agree that the compound doesn’t make one a better hunter and I will step out on to hallowed ground and claim that many of the hunters today are better at hunting then Pope& Young ever were. They were great pioneers in the sport. I have never heard of Ishi taking 50 yard shots most of what I can remember is him describing getting close.
On the target range the compound is supreme. Shooting a 300 round is my best example. With my heavy(mass) recurve I can consistently shoot in the 250's. The 19 oz longbow I am shooting this winter, to work on form, I will probably have a high score of 230 this year at least right now that is the goal( today it looks like 220 will be good). A couple of years ago I had our shop owner set me up with all the bells and whistles for fun. After a couple of practice rounds I was able to shoot 294 and 296. I consider myself an OK shot but I am certainly not in the ranks of many dedicated shooters. The compound is what allowed me to shot such a high score.

The key with Trad shooting is the time and the practice to become proficient, which is the anti thesis to what the manufactures are selling and what the compound represents. Target archery has shown that trad gear is good way out beyond 40 yrds. I would question if any bow should be used to shoot at big game past 40 yrds given the unpredictability of animals movement and the increased scrutiny all hunters have come under. (Which I also blame the manufactures to a degree for the way, they have portrayed hunting in the public eye.)

Our opinions are probably much closer aligned then this brief thread would indicate so I am content to acknowledge that I long for the archery that was and may never be again. et

[jindydiver]

Originally posted by vermonster13:
Just because a person doesn't choose to use Traditional equipment or hunt the same way as I do, doesn't make them less of a hunter or less ethical. What I am saying is do not judge a hunter by the equipment that they choose. We have bigger fish to fry than each other.

Too right, if you make a personal choice to use a style of bow you should be happy for yourself, not looking to berate others because they didn’t make the same choice.

I understand the arguments run deeper than that (scopes on muzzleloaders etc’) but this argument looks the same as that made by the vegetarians:- “we should all be doing it my way because it is the right way”.

I am glad I live in a country where we have very few closed seasons and very few restrictions on what we can do once we hit the forest.

[et]

I would like to point out that those of us who have concerns about the effects modern equipment has had on bow hunting, have not judged or berated people who have chosen other equipment. This has been a discussion on how all of the gadgetry effects Bowhunting in general and how there is a fear that those of us who hunt using equipment that at lest resembles the gear that was used when we where given the archery season are going to lose hunting opportunities because of the modern gadgeteers influence. I shoot with compounders and have friends that use the darn things but if their choice starts to limit the archery season I can not and will not be supportive of the damage they are supporting.

There are unfortunately way to many "hunters" out there like Brain describes and I don't have time to fry them, but I will fry their apologist and before long join the ranks of the  anti-hunter, who hunts. et

[wapiti]

et you got the jist of what I 1st stated. Technology in itself is not a bad thing. If the compound makes it easier for the beginer to get started and not quit in frustration I am all for it. The key point is, how much do we need? Too much of a good thing will kill you and so will the advances in technology kill our hunting heritage. This goes for the rifle hunter as well as the bowhunter! This is not an arguable statement. John Q. Voter elects those that either set the seasons of appoint those that do. 80% of John Q. Voter does not hunt and what he perceives as ethical vs. unethical makes a big difference. We need to get back to basics of hunting or this advancement in technology is going to make our passion nothing but something to dream of.

[Old Ways]

I have been reading the viewpoints of both sides of this debate. Although I see what V-13 is saying, the problem is that the mindset of the new archers is being corrupted by TV and magazines and the shop owners into thinking all this gadgetry is "needed" to succeed. This is turning them more into consumers than hunters. Although there are real hunters out there that use the high tech gear (I use to successfully stalk deer with a compound) the majority seem to be trying to buy their way into getting a deer. Here in Michigan many of these "hi-tech" hunters are content to illegaly use an ATV to get to a tree stand or blind (maybe several) that are heavily baited (illegal)and then sit until the re-programed deer come into feed so they can "whack" one with their sophisticated, draw and hold all day, hit a nickle at 50 yards, archery equipment as it comes in at last light. Which might be after legal hunting hours because the lighted sight pins or the laser dot still let them aim.

There has to be some restrictions put on methods and equipment not only for fair chase but also for environmental concerns related to the manufacture of this extra and un-needed stuff.  

Teddy Roosevelt once said "...The rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions—these are the men who are the real enemies of game."

[vermonster13]

I do agree with that. A lot of the stuff folks have issues with isn't legal in my home state anyways. The biggest advantage to the compound here is the let off, which I don't really consider an advantage in my shooting. I prefer the weight and using my fingers and being able to get a clean release without needing a mechanical release.

[ratgunner]

Old Ways,I see your point but...why does the compound or other technology make these people become outlaws?Do you think if they were only allowed to shoot trad they would'nt do those things ?Or maybe you think they would just quit?Then we might loose our right to hunt with a bow because of not enough numbers in our ranks.But I'm betting they would'nt quit or change thier behavior.  

[Brian Krebs]

oldways: Teddy Roosevelt once said "...The rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions—these are the men who are the real enemies of game."

 Wow Wow WOW. You know you put that thought on the shelf since Teddy was around- and look where we are: right in the middle of what was right about what he said!!

 Ratgunner: I don't believe anyone implied that only traditional bows should be allowed- or that peope that hunt with compounds are outlaws... not convinced you authored it either.
 I do see the positive of compounds; in getting some people interested in bowhunting- but the problem is that the compound industry has taken the lead in: "thinking bowhunting".
  That- THAT- is our punishment- and it will lead to more punishment.
 If there are 100 compound hunters for every traditional bowhunter; and things are decided by democracy- well: unless we have our ducks in order; we will certainly lose.
 I am saying that it is no sin- to make a statement about what traditional bowhunting is; and what it is not. It is not a sin either to have a solid stance on it.
 We are not the wavering ideology- we are the strong ideology: and that will be our saving grace.
 Not that many years ago I argued that in the future- the increased numbers of bowhunters that hunt with compounds- will eventually weigh on all of us. I was laughed at and even physically threatened with death for saying it.
  Now the very same people see that THEIR way of bowhunting; with 65% let off bows and heavy arrows and such - is being changed: and they feel the pain of that. And now they are saying "WHOA!" to an out of control wagon that is being pulled into the future by technology.
 And they are seeing that what I said: was not out of hatred for them; but out of concern for bowhunting.
 I bet that within 10 years- compound bows- will be called 'cam bows'; and that their will be built in range finders- and pins that automatically adjust to the distance to the target.
 One pin; set the laser point on the target; the pin moves to the appropriate place; the arrow held back in place with a bar; until the trigger is pulled and the arrow is released.
 We already see axle lengths that are closing in on twenty four inches.
  What we can expect too: is that all the romance and 'witchery' of bowhunting; will come down to accuracy- and there will be tests to prove that you are "worthy of the privilege to hunt".
  The path of technology will take all of us- to a place that no traditional bowhunter will want to be.
 And if you have not been called irresponsible; or laughed at or scorned yet: because you use a traditional bow- well get ready- your turn is coming.
  I hunt with a longbow; I hunt with a flat bow; I hunt with a recurve bow; all bows that have existed well back in our history; and are rooted in history: with fine men representing them. Like the guy we called Ishi; and Fred Bear; and Dal Lowery; and soo many others!!!!
 I am not asking for people to honor those people that have graced our planet and our lives; and have built integrity into what bowhunting is: I am demanding that we honor those people.
 Demanding that we make a stand; and set our feet with no intent of retreat. That we insist- that those we honor not be forgotten : by making what they stood for recognised; and keeping that integrity alive in what we do.
 I just don't have any faith that the path of technology (and as mentioned the era of the "want over the need") is going to get ideological before... bowhunting is considered by the public; and by society. Creating an impact upon ALL bowhunters.
 'ALL' meaning traditional bowhunters will be judged as the same group; and suffer the consequences of actions; as upon that entire group.
 Its not so hard to say that a section of water is for 'fly fishing only'; and is it not a reality: that traditional muzzleloader hunters have their place and recognition.
 What in the heck is wrong with us claiming the same separation of thought and action?
 ???   ???

[wapiti]

Here is an example of techology gone too far. When I lived in Sheridan ,Wy and hunted the Bighorn Mnts. there was a guy from WA that hunted the entire season looking for the big one. He used a compound bow with a site the he engineered which I guess came natural since that was what he did for a living. His site was a can't miss because of the distance . How it worked was he had a prgram developed from his computer at work that took in the following data, speed of arrow, weight of arrow, draw weight of bow, lenght of arrow etc. etc. The site was one pin and had a machined cam the allowed the site pixture to open and close with the pin always centered in that picture. You moved the site picture open and closed settling the top and bottome on the back and chest of the elk. when you did all you had to do was release the arrow and it was perfect for distance. no estimating and no using a range finder. This thing worked as I tested him out to 80 yds having him make several shots at different distances. He never even came close to missing. You couldn't change ANYTHING or the site didn't work including shooting at a deer as a deer's chest is not the same as an elk. He did however make a site for deer also so you could interchange the sites if the next day you wanted to go after a deer.
  I never heard of this being patented and I don't believe he was seriuos about selling it as he had the time and money to do what he wanted. But this kinda of stuff is what is happening to todays bowhunter. We are loosing the skills of hunting and once lost then the seasons follow as the public is NOT going to see the point of public hunting. We may loose out to hired guns to control the population in time. V13 is right. Lead by example but do not let things slide. See the need for some technology but also see the the destructiveness of too much.

[Old Ways]

ratgunner - I did not insinuate that all compound hunters are lawless. What I am saying is that the trend seems to be this win at all costs, bag the trophy buck to be a winner attitude. Use whatever it takes to do it. Screw the ethics, screw the heritage, screw fair chase, screw the envirionment. We have seen it in sports with drug use, cheating, etc. Now it is becoming a problem in an activity that some of us feel has been our right since the dawn of man.

We each have to choose for ourselves what path we will follow. Each decision we make shows others what path we are on. I for one, as I refine myself, choose to walk in a way that shows my respect for the game I pursue and the very planet we and they live on.

I once hunted with a compound but everytime I held it in my hand it said I was more into technology and less into nature. It said I believed a gadget could make me a better hunter. Now I prefer a bow hand crafted of renewable, natural materials. Now I prefer to trust my instincts and my skill.

It is not only bow hunting where I have made changes. I use to have a motorboat now I choose to canoe. I use to race motocross, now I race mountain bikes. I use to heat with propane, now I use the sun and environmentally safe biomass. I use to be a consumer but now I live a simple life. These are just a few of many changes I chose to make in my life to help our planet. In doing so I also helped myself. I am happier.

Do I condemn others for their path. No. But I do try to make them see where it is heading. When the compound was invented it was with good intention. So was alot of the other gadgetry. I should know, I hold a patent for a high tech bow design. But like they say "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Like Brian said we need to make a stand. Not just for the ethics of bow hunting but for all things that are right. Who decides what is right? Well, if the very fabric of the planet suffers because of our decision then you can bet it is a wrong one.

And like V13 has said we can best win others over by education and our example. Tell and teach others the beauty and heritage of traditional hunting. Tell them of Fred, Ishi, yourself and others who have honored the old ways. Let them see and feel the beauty of a fine wood bow in their hands and experiance the magic of it launching an arrow. Help them appreciate the trees that make our bows and arrows and teach them to respect the game they pursue.

[ratgunner]

Well I'm not argueing about it ,I agree with some of what you said.But from talking to some oldtimers who are no longer with us,I know there were alot more outlaws and unethical hunters in the
 "good old days" than most realize.People looked at things differently,maybe not get the big one at all costs but sure as heck get the freezer filled at all costs was the attitude.I also know this from a few old game wardens[some of who were also outlaws].Point is technology doesnt make you unethical.

[fxe]

I don't see that big of a deal in compound vs trad.I shot a compound until this year.I limited my shots to 30yds. with the compound it is now 17yds. with my recurve.As already stated I think most new trad hunters are former compound shooters.Some have stated that the compound is to effective at killing game.In my state it is not really a problem.Just remember they surley outnumber the trad shooters.The last thing we would want would be them trying to ban trad by saying look they even admit it's not effective and givin people the idea of wounded deer laying everywhere.

[ratgunner]

Yeah I flyfish but I dont go around complaining that the spin guys are catching all the fish.If you hang out with compound shooters like at Archerytalk they arent even aware there is an equiptment debate.  :cool:

[Old Ways]

I don't think anyone here is really comparing compounds to traditional. It is more a discussion of where to draw the line on all the technology being used in what is considered archery. Might as well just allow crossbows with night vision optics  if there are to be no restrictions.

I disagree that a compound is too effective and that traditional equipment is lacking. I have a 100% rate of recovery with my traditional equipment. Something I cant say for my wheel bow days. My best bucks have also been taken with trad  gear. The problem is that technology is trying to push the limits of what archery is all about. I saw an "outdoor show" the other week (looked like they were hunting in someones backyard)and they filmed and bragged about a 60 yard kill shot. That is a high risk shot with any archery gear. But that is what alot of the high tech bow crowd eat up. It is more about speed and distance and less about skill and finesse. Relying on gadgets instead of skills is sure to result in a greater percentage of lost game.

Personnally I have found a recurve or longbow to be a better weapon for stalking than a compound ever was. Don't need any of that other stuff either. No tree stands, no blinds, no carbon suits, no rangefinders, no release, etc, etc, etc.

Ratgunner - funny you should bring up fly-fishing. Here in Michigan there are some streams that are only open to fly-fishing. They are considered "quality" fishing areas. It is interesting that you see alot less litter in those areas. No discarded bait containers, lure boxes or piles of tangeled line. Makes me wonder, do people that want a quality experiance like fly-fishing or traditional hunting have more respect for nature too?

[wapiti]

Thanks Old Way. You get exactly what I am saying.

[ratgunner]

So your saying tradhunters and flyfishers are better caliber of people ?Maybe.But who gets to decide where the lines are drawn ?And lets say we ALL only use trad gear and flyrods,now do you think all that litter will stop or will it just change from lure packs and worm containers to tippets and strike indicaters ?

[ChuckC]

We as humans, especially in the USA, are geared toward competition and toward increasing technology.  We often do not think of the simpler way, but rather, the better way.  This holds true in hunting, in cars, in homes, in everything we do.  The last 50 years has seen an explosion of technology unlike anything the world has ever seen before that.  

It is not going to stop.  The cat is out of the bag.  What possible new participants hear about, read about, or see (TV etc) hunting, it is the new way, the "better" way.  

Our very lives are run by commercialism...to get the better one.  Look around, which truck has the most power in its class (whatever that is)  the most room, the most towing capacity.  They always have a disclaimer so they can say  "best"  or "most".  Not "pretty good".

I saw a billboard somewhere on one of my trips...about high speed internet "fastest speed in the city"  ("under 19.99" in small letters).

This is what we are and what we do....compete.  

Is it good....well, not in my mind.  But I am one of 300,000,000 of us in the US.  Most see only what they read or are told.  

I believe many of us buy into this, really believing this as God's truth...I did for a short time.  Compounds are faster , sights are more precise, releases allow better reproduceability, all of these things are true.....and...they are easier for the average person to master.  

"Heck, it makes sense to use the bestest and the fastest to make the best most assured kill.  It's good for the critter and good for me..."  it does make sense...kinda.  Then you start saying...well, I practice out to 50 yards, 75 yards, 100 yards.  Now things start to unravel. Besides...if I can shoot 75 yards, left and right,  why I can cover that whole woodlot.  If a trophy walk past...its mine !

We are what we are, competitive beings.  Some of us think a little differently and are wired in a fashion that it is the trip and not the destination.  The getting there, not the trophy.  

Some of us like to use as little technology as we can get by with  AND STILL do the job well.  We get great joy out of outfoxing the critter using our inate skills.  

But not everyone thinks this way, heck, most don't.  We have to deal with that.  Not them.  

Life is not gonna stop cause we say so.  There may come a point when the populace says "enough", but I really believe that the small group of us can do nothing except "shine in the publics eye" as doing it well and doing it right.

A buddy and I killed a couple does in a northern forest a few years back.  Last minute of the day and we chose to come back and trail in the light of the next day, after some fruitless dark time searching.  Next morning, we found both and drug them out past some younger people gearing up to go fish.  They saw our deer and shook their heads and then saw our bows and said..."at least you did it the right way".  Their meaning was loud and clear to me.   I agree, I did it the right way.  But  so many others do not agree.
ChuckC

[Old Ways]

ChuckC - I hear you loud and clear. I just heard on the news that a study was done on young Americans and the new generation are more materialistic than ever. They want it all, they want it now and they don't want to have to pay or work for it. They don't want to share or give either. That is sad.

To me this thread is about more than just archery. It may be true that it is too late to change the minds of people. It seems they are content to consume this planet until it is dead. At the rate it is going it might not last much longer anyway.

I'm not one to give up though. I believe in taking a stand for what is right regardless of what my peers do. Preach it enough and maybe someone will hear it. Might not do any good but it makes me feel better than just sitting there and watching it burn.

I aplaud the many on this site that are here because they want to do things the natural way. I only hope that they are striving to achive a natural balance in other aspects of life too.

[wapiti]

Old Ways we need more like you . NEVER GIVE UP!. Yes things are the way they are but also things can change.  Chuck C stated well what is happening. It doesen't have to stay that way. We can change the course. As Vermonster13 said "lead by example". It is truly the only way to fight the commerialism of our hunting hertitage. I think the vast majority of the public will see it this way if we speak loud enough AND long enough. And by speaking I do not mean just writing a letter now and then or getting on a thread like this and posting as you are preaching to the choir. Get out and talk to people and let them know. TALK TO KIDS and get them involved. Thanks for listening folks.

[ratgunner]

I see the light now.I'm gonna throw away my bows till I find the worst one and the most mismatched arrows then I'll be doing it like you guys.