SW PA deer slaughter ???

[2manybows]

Dale,
      I live in NW PA. The deer are near non-existent in my area. If you have high population where you hunt. Please invite me down for a hunt this fall. I have been 2 yrs with no meat in the freezer. I almost forget what it tastes like.
     
       And the coyotes were proven. 5 to be exat were taken with tags, the numbers were traced to State Farm Ins. That was in 2004 and 2005.

[2manybows]

vermonster13

Would it be okay to post it over there ? I do not want anyone upset for posting it in 2 places ? If someone else wants to post it there it is fine by me.

[Dale Hajas]

FWIW I have invited folks for 3 years to come hunt with me. When they heard they had to paddle a canoe upstream after the hunt they all clammed up and I got no takers....        

BTW my wife has been in the ins. business for over 25 years.

[LCB]

Hey Dale I'm ready to row!

There is no way you will get me to buy off on the insurance company stocking yote's. If you have any understanding of coyote's you will easily understand how they got here, if you think that they kill fawns and drag them back to the den for the pups, you are mistaken again.

I would love to sit here and educate the masses on the coyote, but I got to start getting in shape for the upstream canoe trip. Dang we could be like the bald Lewis and Clark:)

Good post on the cull Dale?????

[Dale Hajas]

2many- you started this thread complaining about a deer cull in the SW part of pa. Then you state you are from the NW. The cull taking place is because there are TOO MANY deer in this SW area. Either there werent enough hunters to do the job or there werent enough deer killed.

It didnt take long for this thread to digress.

I ask you sir- is it more important that you have too few deer or that there is a deer kill taking place without the participation of local hunters??

The latter is of utmost importance to me.

[vermonster13]

Yes, they are seperate issues. Anyone know the history of why hunters aren't used anymore?

[Ray Hammond]

fellas,

If you would spend your time DOING something positive you could kill two birds with one stone.

Take a look at  www.swmnga.org   That's an organization I founded in 1999 to take care of situations just like what you are talking about.

It takes time, dedication, and care to operate..it takes time dedication, and care to select members who will operate within the rules and believe in the mission. It takes time, dedication, and care to meet with potential landowner/clients and explain the benefits and win-win that the program has for all involved- the landowner, the hungry, and the hunters.

But if you will take the time to do it the landowners will see the benefit of using you, and you will have gained hunting a friend for life by your good deeds as well as provided you and the members of the organization some fantastic hunting opportunities on private ground, golf courses, subdivisions, commercial spaces, and airports as well as other areas you may run across.

If you don't like the way the rules are written, write new ones and get folks to accept them instead of complaining..that never gets any of us anywhere.

Recognize this planned extermination has NO effect on hunters good or bad- it isn't hunters at all doing it- they are USDA sharpshooters- and if you will meet with those sharpshooters they will likely become your biggest proponents with prospective landowners, helping you actually get properties to hunt on.

But, starting a hunting group to help the public with an overpopulation problem coupled with donating the venison to homeless shelters or food bank networks WILL have a positive effect on the public.

If I can help, you but need to call.

[Dale Hajas]

Chuck there is NO WAY in a million beers that I'd believe that they were stocked by anybody! The 1st one that was known to exist on record, was actually trapped right near me in Greensburg back in 1964!

How many times over the years I have heard the ole rumor about 15 fawns being found outside a coyote den?? SHOW ME PICS!!! I WILL then follow!!    

Now as far as Insurance companies being behind the deer management plan:
 
Deer/auto collisions are considered comprehensive coverage. Should a company raise rates it is done by county, after given approval by a state board.
So if you hit a deer your insurance does not go up until the ins company asks for and is granted a raise FOR ALL POLICYHOLDERS in that area- not JUST the accident victims. The risk is then that you get mad and move your business to another company- where you face that same risk again.


Here's a similar example:

More cars are stolen in Philly(I dont remember the danged county it's in). So all things being equal(past driving record for example) your insurance for the same car would be a bit higher if you live in Philly as opposed to living here in Westmoreland, maybe even to the point if you have a sought after car.

Chuck yer welcome to hunt the mighty Loyalhanna with me! I've been offering and actually pulled the offer before last year. Yer bigger than me so ya gotta sit in back!!    
 
Hey you ever go up to the Laurel Mountain Ski resort road??It goes over to Linn Run. They just did a timber cut there and fenced OUT the deer. So now would be a good time to start to see the effectiveness of deer exclosures, if yer interested.I'm going to take pics of different times of the year.

Thank God the moderators took this off the main forum page! WHEW!  

[vermonster13]

Your welcome Dale.

If you folks want to talk about coyotes start another thread though.

[Dale Hajas]

Ray- you are absolutely right!! As a Bow Ed instructor I had the honor of instructing the very 1st classes of the Whitetail Management groups that have permission to Bowhunt particular areas of Pittsburgh. I instructed for several years thereafter, as the IBEP program was mandatory to become a member of these orgs.

I was also fortunate enough to be part of a small team of bowhunters that help create the current program of the Penn. Game Commissions Advanced Bowhunter Education Program which is still mandatory, to be part of the deer management programs in the 'burgh.

The WMA groups to this point have split into 2 groups over there. Not only have I been able to "train" many of those bowhunters my students have taken over and now are the Bow Ed Instructors for those same organizations. I am VERY proud of them!!

I'm also VERY proud of the WMA groups!! Those deer management groups have done a wonderful job of thwarting the animal rights cult for many years now. As I said, now that it is OUT of the hunters hand and into the pockets of the general public.

The deer management groups take a thrashing from bowhunters that arent a prt of it. It's a shame because they have done so much good for bowhunters all over the state.

I apologize for taking this thread off topic.

[2manybows]

[Dale Hajas]

[2manybows]

[2manybows]

I guess before it is closed I will add my fianl coment. Yes if we allow this to happen in SW PA it will open the door for it to happen even in my neck of the woods, and I do not want them in my backyard.

So as you see it all related to my original topic.

I thank the rest of you for participating

[Dale Hajas]

Best wishes to you sir. I hope to see you doing positive changes for PA bowhunters.

[vermonster13]

Now play nice. This thread is important to some folks and if you can't agree at least agree to let the thread accomplish something positive.

[Steve Kendrot]

Many of you guys have your facts a bit off. Many parts of PA and the entire eastern seaboard for that matter, have tremendous problems with overpopulations of deer in urban areas. In many of these areas hunting, particularly bowhunting, is impractical to get the herd under control. We're talking housing developments with half acres lots and deer densities in excess of 100 per square mile. Its been tried and doesn't always work. These hired "hitmen" are actually  highly skilled marksmen employed by the USDA Wildlife Services program. They are professional wildlife biologists and utilize state of the art technology to cull the herds quickly, accurately and humanely. If USDA is involved, they are conducting it at the request of private landowners and are permitted by the state wildlife agencies.

Relocating deer sounds like a nice solution to the uninformed, but the reality is it is prohibitively expensive and results in very high mortality rates for the relocated deer. Add to that the risks of disease transmission etc. and it is neither economically nor ecologically effective.

I know this because I am an employee of the USDA WS program and have been involved with this work in three states. I am also an avid traditional bowhunter. We often do recommmend recreational hunting as a management option when it is socially acceptable and realistic for controlling the problem. We have however, seen many instances where managed bowhunts have been ineffective in meeting population reduction targets.

I'm always amazed at how quick some hunters are to criticize professional wildlife managers. Do they not realize that most of us are in the field because we love to hunt and fish also? In this day of QDM, foodplots, and trail cameras, every hunter becomes a backyard biologist. Part of being a responsible conservationist is to make informed decisions. Managing wildlife is far more complicated than simply providing hunting opportunities.

[2manybows]

I would love for this thread to accomplish something positive. That is why I posted here to begin with. I remember the role we all had is stopping the hunt for money "game show" .

Everyone has their opinions. And if Dale would like to put past comments to rest I will do the same and let the thread continue to better our sport.

Once again, I thank you for your comments.

      Great Minds do not always think alike.

[vermonster13]

Check the story out at the top of this site to see what kind of opportunity urban hunts can be.

 http://www.mikehanback.blogs.com/

[Dale Hajas]

Steve Thank you for a great post. You have confirmed many of the points I tried to convey.

Again, this area WAS being hunted by bowhunters at one time or another. The political climate is now one where ALL facets of the equation are looking other ways when it concerns bowhunters and suburbian wildlife(whitetail) management.

There ARE other methods to control animal populations, when hunting just doesnt work. We will measure the success of the hunter IF bowhunting is used to maintain that status of the herd AFTER reductions. I do not expect it to happen.

 My biggest fear is that eventually there will be a way to transfer a sterilization drug to the deer herd-as well as other animals. I would bet that some college, some chemical lab or company, somewhere in this country will be using mast trees-food sources- to deliver sterilization to wildlife. A scary possibility for the entire state, whatever the habitat. Deer herd in deep snow near food sources- say a corn field or an area with much browse. These areas get treated and deer do not multiply at traditional rates.

Steve I would like your thoughts on the maintenance of these areas AFTER the reduction.
What is commonplace practice afterward??