SW PA deer slaughter ???

[Dale Hajas]

Vermonster13 there are 2 Whitetail management groups already involved in Pittsburgh area. One- I dont remember which- has already lost some ground. Whatever the case, the PA hunter has trashed these groups to no end, without ever knowing the amount of good that has been done.

My brother hunts in a group that hunts a different area around Pittsburgh. This group is controlled by the local police. I believe they determine who and how many bowhunt there. Hopefully politics will not deter any of the other programs from doing wondrous work.

[vermonster13]

I'm on your side Dale. We need to educate the general population on the good this kind of hunting can do and sharing the meat helps illustrate the point. I have said many times, the selfishness of hunter's does more to hurt us than all the anti's combined. We fight for many different things amongst ourselves while they combine for one goal, stopping us.

[Steve Kendrot]

Dale,

I think it all depends on the specific human/deer population in question. Landowners willing to allow recreational hunting as a management tool is the first hurdle that must be leapt, and often the largest. Probably the second is the presence of a motivated, responsible, ethical, and highly self-regulated hunting community as Ray Hammond mentioned. Those two factors combined with a community with enough green space to safely hunt and minimize conflict with non-hunters would be good places for managed hunting to keep reduced herds in check. Lacking any of those three, I would say recurring culls are probably the wiser (and more effective)choice. Unfortunately, the best efforts of a volunteer force often fall short of what is needed to keep a deer herd in check.

Immuno-contraceptives (birth control) are getting lots of attention these days. My personal belief is that death is a much more natural and predictable method of population control than birth control. The concept will not go away, however, and I have little doubt the current questionably effective birth control methods will be imroved upon. I doubt to the point where they can control free ranging populations, but that won't stop people from trying and claiming it is a silver bullet. Sportsmen should follow the issue closely.

[LCB]

Wish someone could fill me in on why I need to be concerned about immuno-contraceptives. Isn't this a bit of a conspiracy theory??

Chuck

[Dale Hajas]

Chuck contraceptives have been proven to be successful deterrent to population growth in animals.

However the only place that this is true- OUTSIDE A LAB- is the wild horse population down along the outer banks. The horses there are basically in a captive state. They are not free ranging animals like deer. In other words their location does not permit the horses to run all over the place. The IC's can be administered to the chosen animal time after time again.

Whereas deer, once a doe was given the IC's she would then have to be given it again and again and again. Hard to do here in PA or any other state that isnt an island or LAB.

IC's have been proven to be SOMEWHAT successful ONLY as long as hunting is also used as part of that management plan.

Now it's been about 4 or 5 years since I was in the BE program here but at the time I was active, this information was current.

What we will see IMHO is that sooner or later  the local news stations in the 'Burgh will be plastering the homes of Pittsburgher's -and the tri-state area- with IC uses. The important FACT here is that most of 80% of those folks DO NOT HUNT. But they do vote.

Steve Do you have any current info on IC's, that would prove any different on the above wild horse scenario??
 
Thank You

[LCB]

Dale,

Thank you for the explination.

I can't help but think that a program like this would be costly, time consuming, and eventually fail due to lack of support. How on earth could they controll the dosage?????

I understand what you mean when you speek of political support, and can see where your concerns stem from.

Thanks again.

[Dale Hajas]

Chuck the general public would never be told the entire truth, and yes it would be extremely costly.

[Steve Kendrot]

There are a number of Imuno-contraceptive studies in the works. A big one is funded by HSUS and is being conducted at the National Institite of Standards and Technology in Gaithersburg MD. A fenced population of several hundred deer and IC was implemented without prior control of the herd. Results were less than stellar. There are numerous other deer studies throughout the country ongoing as well. Its definately not conspiracy theory. Currently there is not a bait delivery system for deer, but they are being developed for other species. Matter of time I imagine. The problem I have is many of these eficacy studies are done in confined populations and then proponents suggest they will be as effective on free-ranging herds.

[Dale Hajas]

"Currently there is not a bait delivery system for deer, but they are being developed for other species. Matter of time I imagine."

My fears are starting to come to fruition.

Imagine "laced White oak stands" as a possible scenario. Crabapple trees maybe. In small areas like this area near Pittsburgh IC's thru an edible medium may become a viable option. Or at the least we will be told that.

Steve your input has been greatly appreciated.
 
Thank You!

[fflintlock]

Anyone read the Feb. / March issue of Primitive Archer, there's an article relavent to this discussion, pg. 6, The Stage of Hunting in the U.S.

[Dale Hajas]

Thanks I'll have to pick one up!

[fflintlock]

It's not much, 1 page, but it points out an increase in hunting and shooting, of all weapons and an increased intrest in "managment of animals", from hunters and nonhunters.
 I was thumbing through it last night and remembered this conversation.

[ratgunner]

Seems like the perfect solution here is to use bowhunters.This is probably on land where the homeowners don't allow acces.It could be public land but,too close to houses to shoot a firearm.

[Steve Kendrot]

Dale, truthfully, the IC "threat" doesn't alarm me too much. There are so many challenges and hurdles to refining any delivery system, injectable or ingestible, that I doubt it will ever be effective at anything but a local scale with confined populations. And...make no mistake, the agenda in developing IC is not to replace hunting- It's to make money baby. Talk that it will replace the need for hunting is a marketing tool to make it appealing to the non-hunting public.

[vermonster13]

No, to get funding from large bank-accounted anti-organizations. Most of the non-hunting public still supports hunting especially when seen as beneficial.

[Ray Hammond]

Steve,
You are right, recreational bowhunters (the bowhunting public) is NOT an effective management tool.( I did not see your post ref. my website when I originally posted this) I swear I read through the whole thread before posting this...oh well, old age creepin up, I guess!)

There are other alternatives to recreational hunting- see our website and see what CAN be done with bows in urban and suburban environments-  www.swmnga.org  

We have 55 members and the AVERAGE member takes 6 deer per year...but many limit out on their twelve tags each season. Bowhunting, when done properly rather than just letting anyone with a bow participate, CAN be a tremendous tool in the arsenal of game departments...they just can't get past their own meager experience with recreational bowhunters...which is NOT what I am talking about.

[Steve Kendrot]

Ray, That's a great website and a great organization. The members sound like wonderful ambassadors for bowhunting and I tip my hat to the organization. I have a whole bunch of questions, please don't interpret them as skepticism.
How many applicants do you receive a year? How many are denied membership? Is there a large contingent of  non-member urban bowhunters in these same areas? Do you ever fight image problems caused by non-member hunters? How large is the area covered by SWMNGA? If all 55 members took their max of 12 deer that's 660 deer out of what kind of area? The relative importance as management tool is dependent on the size and geographic scope of the herd . The biggest benefit may be to individual property owners, (and that in itself is reason for the program to exist), but I wonder if on a regional level, take by your organization scratches the surface.

Again Ray, I am NOT criticizing, just looking to better understand. I have a friend in a MD housing development that is struggling with deer problems. They don't seem interested in sharpshooting, but have had limited success with bowhunting efforts. (I have not participated- BTW).

[Hatchet Jack]

They do it in my part of the state. Pennypack Park and Farmount park. They  also bring in the snipers at Phila national airport and they shot all my huntable deer around Northeast Phila airport. I been hunting   there since I been a kid. All the deer are all but shot out by the snipers   :mad:      

Hatchet Jack

[Ray Hammond]

we operate currently on 9 properties, they range in size from 20 acres to 1500 acres...total? Maybe about 5000 acres.

We get lots of applicants we turn down.There are a lot of wannabes out there, who will TELL you how great they are to get access to big bucks. We've gotten pretty good at separating the men from the boys, though.

Not everyone is cut out for this stuff- shooting does when a big buck is nearby? It's not easy..but its what you NEED to do to keep the access. We allow our guys to shoot one big buck per season..but it has to be a gagger. Most bucks taken in one season? About 6. they all broke P&Y minimums by a good margin.

we don't operate where we are not exclusive. Too many problems could be created by non members operating on the same property and our group being blamed for their actions?

We operate in 13 metro Atlanta counties. No criticism felt at all...we do too many good things for too many people for me to let anyone's opinion about us trouble me too much anyway.

We offer to help ANYONE form their own group to EXPAND the effect of what we are doing beyond our capabilities. We are always looking for opportunities to expand ourselves, as well, but I refuse to hire members and not have places for them to hunt...so its a catch 22 in that I do it for free- and have to work, as our other board members do- to earn a living. So its a labor of love.

If I made money at it I could afford to go out and find new properties every day, accept new members, and have a bigger impact.

I do not see any lack of validity to what we are doing and we are having a decided impact on the properties we do operate on..if we were not they would not be bringing us back year after year.we just don't have the numbers of guys or access to enough locations to regionally impact the deer herd- YET.

But its coming. All that has to happen is for the housewives to hit a deer with their minivan, or have their pansies eaten and their tunes change from "oh, aren't those deer cute?" to "kill every one of those flower-munching rats!"

If anyone wishes to start an urban hunting program just let me know and we will keep you from reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

[Dale Hajas]

Ray- there are already 2 different WMA groups here in the 'burgh. They get so much crap from other hunters it's absolutely ridiculous.

Steve again thank you for your participation.

Your statement -"Talk that it will replace the need for hunting is a marketing tool to make it appealing to the non-hunting public." Is absolutely true. There-in lies the true goal- the non-hunting public will decide against bowhunting.