Never Cry Wolf

[JBiorn]

Heh-----yeah, I got it. Me slow sumtyms. Heh.

This is an important thread for us western hunters, for sure.

 Jeff

[Tim Kosteczko]

wow, you guys can keep them we have enough trouble with the coyotes.

[J-dog]

They would worry me if my kids lived around an area with them around. I think? I would like to hunt a wild area that has them. I know the Western guys drama, it is bad, but I hope that when they are allowed a season things will get better for you the guys living/hunting out there. I like to trap and that would be pretty cool to get one.

That pic with the pug???? I would lay him low, and then stand court. I just can't see letting an animal be a danger to you your kids or your animals???????? that is ignorant.

Jason

[Steve Kendrot]

Some of my most exciting hunting experiences have involved close encounters with predators. I wouldn't trade those experiences for the world, and I'd gladly trade some of my own kills for the opportunitity to share the woods with wolves, cougars, griz, etc... It saddens me to know that so many who have the opportunity take it for granted, or worse yet, resent the animals for doing what they are meant to do. I'm glad to see there are some who do appreciate them. Those who complain should be thankful they live in a place that can still support wolves. They could be losing hunting opportunities to pavement and stripmalls like so many of the rest of us.

Steve

[IB]

Steve....You make some very valid statement in regards to being glad that we live in an area that supports these animals. Please do not take what I am about to ask you in any way as argumentative or in any way offensive. You are a wildlife biologist so I hope you can shed some light on a question that has haunted me an others that live with Wolves.

How is it that these Wolves can be considered "Endangered" #1 when they were Re-introduced from a species that were not native to this area and #2..The species that was introduced is thriving in Canada and some of our states.
I ask this question in total sincerity and NOT trying to raise anyone's hackles. I REALLY would like to know the answer and can't get it from Feds. here.

How long does it take for our wildlife to adjust to their presence after not having them around for 75+ years?

[Firstarrow]

IMO - in the lower 48 wolf regulation should be like coyotes... Protected in the National park system (Pseudo balanced environment), open season outside... Speaking of the west there are few areas that can sustain the current hunting pressure long if the wolf gets a foot hold.

Do we want to keep our status as the dominant predator or are we willing to relinquish it to the wolf.

IMO - if a person wants to bring wolves in just for the sake of hunting them in the future. HEAD WAY NORTH where you can actually take one, Where human populations are low and game populations can still be managed at huntable populations despite the wolves, grizz and other predators.

Having said all that I would love to head north and hunt with the wolves, and Grizz.

Thanks for posting the Photo and Experience, I have to admit it would be way cool to experience.

Isn't it amazing how the Wolf brings forward so much emotion.

It brings out the good and the bad in all of us. The funny thing is depending on where you are standing the good for one may be the bad for another.

Best in hunting to you all.

[IB]

I hope no one mis-understands me.

I love the wildelife Wolves included, it's just that my livestock and my business don't like being eaten.

[denny]

Three different days this past season I had wolves start howling while I was working bulls deep in drainages in Idaho, I can't say whether or not there's any reason to be afraid, but alone with just a stickbow it tends to get your attention. I didn't sight them and honestly I wasn't hoping to but they were close and I found a fresh elk kill.

[Steve Kendrot]

Vance,

I doubt I can answer your question to your satisfaction. As you know th eFWS administers the Endangered Species Act. Wolves, and other ES, are divided into Distinct Population Segments under ther ESA. Each population segment requires its own receovery plan. Its been a while since I've worked on wolf recovery issues, but as I recall, Mexican wolves, northern rockies, great lakes and the Northeast are disctinct population segments for wolves in the lower 48. Therefore, each segment requires its own recovery plan. The intent of the ESA is not merely to ensure lots of wolves exist somewhere, (as is the case in AK and Canada), but to ensure that their former geographic range is represented as well. As you know, wolves were extirpated from 98 percent of their native range in the lower 48. Its my opinion (and you know what they say..) that the  "non-native" wolves being introduced into the northern Rockies goes, is largely anti-wolf rhetoric. There may have been slight genetic differences between the original Yellowstone/Northern rockies wolves and those introduced from neighboring Canada, but functionally they are the same critter. Wolves are generalist predators and will adapt to whatever prey is available. Considering that no Yellowstone wolves remained, The nearest neighbors across the border seem a logical choice to me. At one time, taxonomists recognized 24 subspecies of wolves in North America. Now they recognize only five (Mexican, Artic, Northern Rockies, Great Plains and Eastern Timber). Great plains were thought to be extinct, but are now believed to be the same wolves found in MN and WI.

 http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/intermed/inter_sci/wolf_subspecies.asp

The ESA provides two levels of protection, endangered and threatened. I beleive the northern rockies wolves have been downlisted to threatened haven't they? The next step is delisting, but before that can occur, the states hosting wolves have to demonstrate that they have management plans in place to ensure the longevity of those populations. I think ID and MT have plans that meet FWS approval, but WY does (or at least did) not. For some strange reason, moving straight from threatened to vermin status doesn't instill confidence that populations will be maintained...

I'm droning on incessantly as biologists are prone to do, but its a complex and politically charged issue and fun to discuss. To recap and answer your questions...#1 the introduced wolves were native, or at least native enough     , and #2
as stewards we have an obligation to restore species to once occupied habitats wherever possible. And consider this: If deer were extirpated from 98% of their range in the lower 48, how many of us on this list would be content knowing that there were still a bunch left in Saskatchewan. Darn few I bet. Why should we feel differently about wolves?

[IB]

Thanks Steve...That was far more than I have ever gotten from those working with them here. And I do understand what you are saying. Can't say that I whole heartily agree.

They truly are very awesome to watch and see and I can't say that I have any real fear for myself.

I have seen what they are capable of doing and at the present have no real fear of anything.

Living here I seem to find myself with a foot in both camps where Wolves are concerned.

Thank you Steve

[flungonin]

sss

[Steve Kendrot]

Well, I envy that you have first hand experience. I hate being a remote observer. Its easy to support wolf recovery when you don't have to live with the consequences. I do know wolves cause problems and I beleive in controlling those problems. I just don't think the fact that they cause problems gives us the right to deny them a place in our world.

[9 Mile Archer]

Boy, guess I dropped a match on a dry prairie!  For me it's this way:  Wolves are spectacular animals that are neat to see once in a while.  I don't want them exterminated but I do want them controlled.  It is generally bad when the people’s hands are tied by the government that is there to protect them.  When wolves are in your paddock eating your livestock or mauling your family pet in your front yard, you should be able to deal with them without fear of falling into a legal battle that will bankrupt you.  As for protecting wild places, I am behind it 100%, this is not about protecting wild places this is about setting boundaries for uncontrolled apex predators.  I chose to live out here and I plan to accept events that come with living in close proximity to wildlife, but I also plan to protect my family and property when necessary.  Reintroduction of the wolves is an EXPERIMENT by the Federal biologists. It needs to be seen as an experiment and treated as a test not as the mandated law of god.  For better or worse the Rocky Mountains ecosystem is radically and forever different from what it was when the wolves lived here with the Native Americans.  Whether they can live here now or not has yet to be decided. What I do know is that if they are going to make it here they have to be controlled via human intervention and the people whom live amongst them need to feel involved and included in the management process.  As of yet I don’t think the Feds have done a great job of doing that. JMHO

[Walt Francis]

I tried to staty out of this, but couldn't.

Unfortunately, I see wolves every couple of weeks during the winter from my house.  In fact I saw two this afternoon on the ranch Doug Campbell manages when I headed home after a day of knife making/instruction (but that is another story).  I do not live in the city but not in remote wilderness either, I live in a subdivision near a ski resort.  Say what you like, but the federal government forced the wolves on the citizens of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming (and now Oregon), despite the opposition of these states residents.  If the majority of residents of your state would like to import them, you are welcome to take ours.  I believe most every state had them before the Europeans arrived and if you want to revert to another time period and make room for them in our state, have at it.  Watch them decrease you game numbers by 70%, reduce the recruitment rate to 6-7%, and increase the age structure to just over 12 years, as has happened here, then tell me it was good for the wildlife.  However, the key issue is the wolves are not in danger of extinction and, in my opinion, are simply being used as a tool to replace man’s role in game management in the western states.

Now, Do you want to know how I really feel?    

I have to agree with Flungonin: SSS

[9 Mile Archer]

Walt,
Could make that a little clearer for me.  :D  Oh ok I think I understand you, SSS.    Anyone have some gas this fire....

[Brian Krebs]

Steve:
  With all due respect; our fish and game had a gag order put on them to keep their mouths shut about the wolves. That included the fact there were already wolf packs here; that were documented to be here; at the time of the 're-introduction'.
 The promise of the re-introduction was to reach a level of 100 wolves including 10 breeding pairs; we now are at 700 wolves and 41 breeding pairs in Idaho.
 The wolves that WERE here; were called "red wolves" they were 1/3 smaller than the introduced species. In the written logs of Lewis and Clark; they mentioned that the wolves in this area ( I live on the 'Lewis and Clark Trail' in Idaho); were 'much smaller'- than other wolves they saw in their travels.
  I do not agree that the introduced wolves are in anyway close to being what WAS here before the 'reintroduction' of the larger species.
  The actions of elk to escape wolves had always been to run uphill in deep snow to mire down the wolves and limit their attack system.
 These bigger wolves have no problem with the deeper snow; and have hammered our bull elk (which winter in bachelor groups at higher elevations than the cow elk;calves and spikes).
  If it all is 'retoric' why are fish and game officals ordered not to talk about it???
  The governor we had at the time of the forced re-introduction; is now the secretary of the interior. Our new governor has openly stated he wants wolf tags issued now and to let the shooting begin.
  Wolves are incredible animals; I raise dogs; lived my whole life with dogs around; and I see the 'dog' in them- but every species needs to be controlled or they overpopulate and other species suffer.
  In Idaho; the species that are being effected are: elk; deer; bears; antelope; moose- that I personally have seen. I have to wonder why we are seeing fewer Mountain goats; and how the sheep are being effected.
  But everything is being eaten. People I know that have trap lines loose everything they trap in some areas to wolves.
  When I hear wolves howl; I hear coyotes eventually answer back. I know coyotes howl to get pheasants to cackle in the dark; then hunt them down; and I wonder if that is happening to the coyotes by the wolves.
  I do know people here that trap and hunt coyotes; and they are seeing less coyotes.
  There are missing dogs and cats; and I lost a donkey colt to the wolves.
   Its easy to sit in a chair in the east and speculate on what we in the west are going through.
  I assure you that the clock is ticking. Either a control hunt is put into action; or a lot of good people: will become outlaws.
  ( SSS. )
This wolf situation was wrong from the get go; and again; WE HAD wolves already!!!!!!!

    :mad:    :mad:    :mad:

[Brian Krebs]

Red wolf: 26" at shoulders; 60 pounds average; main diet deer and small game. pack sizes 10 to 12.

The introduced gray wolves are 30 inches at the shoulder; 85-115 pounds and up to 145. Packs up to 37.  Main food: elk; deer; moose; dall sheep;caribou ( we HAD Caribou in upper Idaho prior to the 'reintroduction- although I don't know if the caribou population decrease is related at all: to the wolves);moose....and other game.

Although red wolves according to your link Steve - do not inhabit Idaho; I know biologists who are under a gag order: not to say they are here ( it would have stopped the introduction of the gray wolves!). However: their WIVES are not under gag orders- and they talk openly about the red wolves and the fact that their biologist husbands: would be fired for talking about it-- and lose their pensions!
    This is the state of wildlife biology?
  At what point do we recognise the wolves need to be controlled?
  I have visited 'pro-wolf' sites where they openly say that they hope the gray wolves kill all the elk and deer; "SO THAT HUNTERS WILL HAVE NOTHING TO HUNT".
  That would of course include traditional bowhunters!!! ( as in please think before yanking this topic)

[Ben Woodring]

It is embarrassing to me that folks in unaffected areas (I'm from OH) would have the ordasity to even have an opinion. I don't expect someone from Idaho to tell me how to manage my groundhog population next to the bean fields (awsome trad bowhuntin opportunity!) The idea we have a "responsability" to try and return the eco-system to a pre-industrial revolution state is slightly insane I think. Unless we want to start shipping people off the continant!

[Chad Sivertsen]

I will offer my comments here. I am not anti or pro wolf....yet. I love wild country and have spent a fair amount of time in it. Predators are part of the balance.

Lived in NW Montana for 20+ years and we have always had a few wolves. During that time they seemed to hold their own but experienced little population growth. It appears something has changed and the wolf population is growing.

In the fall of 2005 I discovered an area in the mountains that had a high deer population with several fine mature bucks. I didn't get one of those bucks but all year looked forward to the opportunity to pursue them during the 2006 season. Well it was very disappointing, I saw 2 or 3 deer a day in 2006 compared to 15-30 the year before. Same place, same conditions following a mild winter. I couldn't figure it out, sure seemed strange. When the snow came so did the realization that all the deer tracks from 2005 had been replaced with wolf tracks.

A lot of things have changed in the West. 200 years ago game wintered in the valleys and summered in the mountains or on the open prarie. Today those valleys are cities and ranches and the prairies are largely fenced and becoming more populated by the day. There was more room to roam and the factors in the entire equation were much different.

9 Mile- Were you near one of the Thompson Lakes? The area I spoke of is Thompson River country.

Chad

[Steve Kendrot]

Red wolves native to Idaho??? I've not seen that referenced anywhere in any of the peer-reviewed scientific literature. If you can find me a reference, I'll gladly read. Contrary to popular belief, not all government employees and wildlife biologists fly to work in black helicopters...no matter what their wives say.

The introduced wolves in ID and WY were introduced as an "experimental population" in order to allow the flexibility needed to manage problems, including killing livestock depredators. That's not to say that recovery was ever meant to be an "experiment". Contrast this with the naturally expanding population of wolves in NW MT which was afforded full protection as endangered under the ESA.

If you beleive that I disagree with the management of wolves, than you have not read my posts carefully. I fully support delisting and regulated hunting as well as livestock protection. Blind persecution is not an enlightened conservation perspective as far as I am concerned.

Every taxpayer has a stake and therefore a say in what happens on federal lands. I beleive local residents should be able to manage the problems as they need to on private lands.