Controversial Predator Control

[vermonster13]

Nowhere do I see any accusatory tones in this thread. He is putting a question out there is all. I can tell you from a hunting public image standpoint, a raptor hunting season would be disasterous. It would do more damage to our image than everything done by PETA and HSUS in the last 20 years. As far as your chickens, well you let them free range and you take chances with a lot of different animals making a meal out of them. No disrespect intended, but we have a enough trouble with our image without creating new problems.

[Jerry Jeffer]

Humans have been removed from nature? Can't agree with that one. Humans are a part of nature, and impact it every day. #1 reason for any decline in animal population, loss of habitat. Shawn touched on that one. I don't know of any reason to control raptor populations. I certainly don't see the rodent population hurting any. Tree rats and smaller animals is what I see raptors eating. Do they eat other things? I'm sure. When I see Coyotes moving in to urban areas, that signals me that there might be a few too many around. Same goes for Bears, like in NJ. I don't see so many raptors to peak my interest in thier number. Ok, I'll shut up.

[Danny Rowan]

Raptors should never be hunted or killed. Their benifits are numerous. No didadvantage that I can see. They are not the problem, yotes are the problem in almost all cases of low rabbit and small game bird populations as well as skunks,coons,possums and others.

They are our brothers and sisters and only take what they need to survive. NEVER.

Danny

[Stone Knife]

I'm not that fond of hawks or any other bird of prey although they are nice to watch in action. I guess i don't like the competition, i don't believe that any animal is my brother i feel that they were put on this earth for mans use whether it be for food or clothing etc. I walked for about 5 hours on sat looking for bunnies i saw some tracks and did see one rabbit that quickly went into his hole. I did see some fox tracks but no sign of a fox kill, i saw no sign of a kill by any bird of prey or by human. Yet i saw only one rabbit, one would have to ask themselves what happened to all the rabbits, grouse, and in the summer the woodchucks. I would have to say loss of habitat around here, the modern farming practices don't allow for hedgerows or much else that gets in the way. The rotation of crops is maybe two to three years at tops then the fields are plowed back up only after tons of liquid manure are spread over them this has caused the woodchucks to live almost solely in the hedges that are left and the edge of woodlots. When at one time they were all over the fields again less suitable habitat means less animals. Just down the road from me their was an area of about 100 acres plus of thorn apple and brush, it was fairly wet unfarmable we all thought not so it ended up being bulldozed and tiled now it's open crop land. That one area had the greatest impact on the deer numbers around my house than anything i can remember. Yes there's more feed for the deer and other animals but no place to go and hide in the harshest part of winter, the land can only support so many. And the habitat that these creatchers need shrinks daily. Just my opinion right or wrong.

[Steve H.]

I DON'T disagree!  I am hearing some frieghtful responses as to why not, because they are warm and fluffy type stuff and that is scary from hunters as it's the same mentality and rhetoric that anti-hunters use, such as "how could you shoot it, the bunny is so cute, and cuddly".  I'm not saying a full out onslaught with a bag-limit of five any raptors per day....

In MY area, Juneau, AK we are OVERRUN with bald eagles and Freakin' RAVENS and seagulls.  It is to the level of filty at times.  No managment can happen as they have federal protection and once animals get federalized they generally are NOT managed.

[Al Dente]

You hit it right on the head Clint.  The pesticides did so much damage that we're lucky to have seen the rebound of the birds of prey.  It's unfortunate but the DEC has mismanaged the wildlife for many years, and then lie to us, the sportsmen.  They still deny a coyote problem, haven't done a deer study for nearly a decade (except for CWD testing), and are now conducting a 5 year beaver study. The coyote explosion is the main reason for the small game and upland bird decline.  Raptors don't kill for the sake of killing, coyotes do.

I've not seen a rabbit, woodchuck, quail, or pheasant for years.  But have seen several packs of 12-15 coyotes running the hill and valley by my place.  I do not want to see coyotes eliminated, every creature has its' place,  but they are the problem and they need to be addressed.

I proposed a year long season, but the DEC scoffed at the idea, saying YOU need to go out and kill more.  I countered them by asking for the logic in ending the season at the end of March, instead of letting it go until after the first fawns have dropped in May.  No repsonse from the 3 DEC so-called wildlife managers at the podium.  It's OUR fault the coyotes have decimated the wildlife and expand their areas and numbers.

I, personally will never hunt a bird of prey.  I prefer watching them glide and hunt the early mornings from my stand.

I'm sick of the DEC turning a blind eye to sportsmen's concerns, then having the nerve to ask for license fee lincreases.  With nearly 40 million dollars collected for licenses last year, they better wake up.

[PEREGRINE]

Well, I have yet to read a more controversial post on this website. I have worked with hawks for over 3 years now as a falconer. I love raptors!  I think the bowhunting community could learn from the falconry community. Falconers are a small minority that  is besieged by anti-hunting types of organizations. Falconers have learned to watch their public image carefully and know that they are under constant public scrutiny. The idle, admittedly unscientific opinion that raptor populations might need to be "managed" is very inflammatory and damaging to the bowhunting community in general. Especially considering the waning popularity of hunting. On a personal level I am ok with management if scientifically applied even for raptors. I only take issue with such a controversial post in a public forum. In my opinion not much good can come of it.

[Stone Knife]

we are OVERRUN with bald eagles and Freakin' RAVENS and seagulls. It is to the level of filty at times.  

You don't need to go to the sea to see seagulls around here  just look in the parking lot at McDonald's or near our dairy farms there are thousands of them. The parking lot at one of our local schools look like it was painted white with the fecal matter from these birds pretty sick if you ask me. They need to be thinned out for sure.

[Jerry Jeffer]

Seems there are many localized problems with Birds, predators etc. Obviously the problems are not every where. I agree there are many species that go unchecked by game management. This is why we must write letters to the "people in charge" state, federal etc. Try to get your concerns noticed. This is the only way any thing will ever happen. That is how antis keep the NJ bear hunt from happening so often. If you really think there is a problem, this is a great place to discuss it, but to make things happen, there are others who need to know. I am willing to take part in population control of any wildlife if it is determined to be necessary. Limits and Regulations keep it healthy.

[Izzy]

Just got back from bunny hunting.I saw one but no shot.Saw 2 redtails and was in awe at their beauty.One landed in a large oak 70 yards uphill from me so I watched.In a few minutes squirrels began to appear in the oak grove and began barking at the hawk.He flew off when I tried to shoot it(with my cannon digital)sorry for that one I couldnt resist.Anyway they were awsome to see.I saw one grouse and not a lot of tracks on the light snow above the crusty stuff.There used to be a ton of them there along with one of the last strongholds of pheasants in my area.I got to thinking about this topic alot more.I still feel that there is no reason that they cant be treated like any other part of the ecosystem that is constantly manipulated by us,mankind through hunting or other means.I too was alarmed as was JeffH at how people were so emotional over the topic and humanized birds of prey.Theres not a lot of people who can honestly say a deer of any species or a strutting gobbler is less regal than any bird of prey and also not a lot who wont hunt them because theyre too beautiful.Im not interested in having "raptor hunting seasons"obviously unacceptable by the majority of the non hunting public and as you can see here the hunters as well.My main interest was to see how other people feel about it.Im sure the issue varies from region to region.Im also sure that its our responsibility as hunters to do whats right for the environment.We're generally the only ones that do.There are a lot of things in life that are unpleasant but necessary, I do them everyday in my profession as a police officer.Im a hawk hater by no means but they are just another part of the ecosystem to me and should be given no sacred status.Sure there was a time when it was needed but that times come and gone.Sorry if I offended anyone but I feel that some of you here are as concerned about the wild as I am and this just never crossed your mind.Just interested in what people thought at this time.Thanks

[mullet]

Well the only thing I can add to this is  when the hawks set up camp at he Dove field you might as well go home.The owl is another one that will kill a load of birds.I watched one kill a half a dozen chickens in two hours.

[Al Dente]

No offense at all.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I try not to humanize/Disneyize any creature.  But like I said above, they are not opportunistic killers, they kill when they must eat or feed their young, unlike coyotes which will kill and keep on killing.  Glad to see you had the chance to see a bunny and a few red tailed hawks.

[nick_the_tinkerer]

My 2 cents...

I think Land Developers do more damage than all the raptors and predators combined.

I feel no need to kill any predator or raptor w/o seeing the complete effect in the area / enviorment that I'm at. Example when I go deer hunting and I see more coyote sign then deer sign then it's time to reduce the pack; with respect and admiration.

I have much more resentment to people that have been  dropping off their dogs in the woods and stray cats then anything else.


Do not get me wrong I have a cat, and a dog and I love those little buggers, but they are a house cat and dog and not harmful to any wildlife or song bird.

I think more than anything we have to see the balance, and worry about human intervention rather than raptors or other predators.

I know for a fact that our local Fish and wildlife has release falcons in the downtown area to control the pigeon population. I hear them every morning when i get to work and it;s nice to know in the concrete jungle there is some balance in the wildlife.

I know I'm rambling and it's late, I cant sleep,  but I hope everyone gets my drift..meaning...etc.


let me know what you think of my comments...

Take care


Nick

[JStark]

In the hunting and anti-hunting communities I see the arguments about specific cases at times as mere false reasoning, when really the person just wants to happen what they want and how they want it.  For anti-hunters, it's often the anthropomorphizing of animals, and the numbers they use to argue to not hunt a particular animal don't really matter, they would want the same conclusion regardless.  

For hunters, I often hear 'management' of herds or predators, when oftentimes (not always, mind you) the real reason for the pro-hunting position is simply because the hunter wants to hunt it, or doesn't want something else hunting what he hunts.
So I am happy to hear this question couched in terms of a science-based look at raptors.  I left another forum online because I read 'sss' as a response to another hunter's picture of a mountain lion.  
 
I feel much more comfortable when I hear a hunter use 'management' of game to mean that he isn't going to hunt a particular animal this year, because he's seen 'em get hit too hard lately, when I see that his consideration of hunting includes not hunting when it is inappropriate in his place.

When I consider habitat loss, pollution, yayhoos and scalawag poachers in our midst, I would rather see us consider a native animal as having first consideration, even to the extent of fewer days hunting particular game, and even if it means eradication of non-native species we love to hunt (feral pigs, not javies, and turkeys in California come to mind).  Thus, I oppose hunting hawks.  Looking at coyote expansion in the last hundred years, I have no problem with hunting coyotes.

[strick9]

I STRONGLY AGREE WITH JMILLER,,,JUST DELETE THE REST OF MY POST AS TO NOT GET BLASTED..BC USE IT..

[Traxx]

I have as much reason to admire raptors as anyone.Its the way i was raised.I love seeing Hawks and Eagles,out and about,its Lela Wakan to me.Haveing said that,I have to agree,with SteveH.If in need,i dont see why raptor populations,shouldnt be managed,the same as any other species.
All those Raptor feathers,you see,in all the old NDN,pics,didnt come from roadkills.

[Drew]

in my area red tails have hit a population growth, and many areas have a ton of them. they do take a toll on the game bird population but so does everything else habitat loss, farming, and other predators. I have a friend who is studying raptors for the michigan DNR, and they have relocated some to urban areas to help clean up with the rodent control and pigeons which i think really helps. I won't want a raptor hunting season just maybe some agencies doing work to relocate some to needed areas and i'm sure just like everything in nature the growth is a cycle and will eventually come down again.  One season I never understood is Crow, we are allowed to shoot them here, but no one does anything with them and they are nature's garbage men cleaning things up.  

I feel coyotes in my area get a bad rap, everyones says that harm the deer populations. After all the reading, researching and trapping.  I feel they may take a few deer but way less then those deer getting hit by cars. the deer roadkill provides more than enough food for coyotes.  It's also a proven fact that something like 80% of a the deer found in coyote stomachs is roadkill or carrion(from the book Eastern Coyote and the story of its success).  Coyotes are like any other animal if there is enough food they will populate and disperse expanding their territory.
If coyotes are a problem in your area find a trapper or try hunting them...hunting a predator is a true challenge and most coyotes will put you to the test of your abilities.  

I think we need predators no matter what type, and nature always has a way of balancing out the populations unless humans step in..we usually screw it up.  I wonder why, we can't even control our own species.

Good post, makes everyone think and got some reactions from people.

[Jesse Minish]

I wonder how many of you have ever seen coyotes kill for the sake of killing? I have not. I have seen eagles kill salmon drop them on a river bank go kill another one and eat it. Leaving the first one to waste. In my little part of the world we have only a few coyotes a few rabbits and a ton of hawks and eagles. Hawks will kill much larger game than just rodents. Using a deer distress call I had a hawk about stick his talons in my face. Indians are as spiritual as they come but they also killed rapters to use for ceremonies. I like to see these birds as much as anyboby but I do not see the problem with a selective harvest. Where I live I can not blame the coyotes for not having rabbits, squirrels, or any other game because we do not have very many. We also do not have very many deer I wonder if that is the coyotes fault? I think it is funny how people can love one predator but hate another.

[Bonebuster]

Drive a ways on any highway in Michigan. You will see raptors perched in trees all along the way.
They are all small game hunting.
 
Birds,rabbits,squirrels. They kill, they eat, and they go rest. Just like me.

Coyotes,kill anything and almost everything they come across. Whether they are hungry or not. They never rest. They never stop. Opportunity knocks and they open the door. Every day they are bigger, smarter, faster, stronger, and hungrier.
Coyotes of today are not the same as yesterday.
They will be different tommorrow. Hunt them, and you will find they have few weak points. (They can`t hide from the hound dogs nose)I love them.
 
Coyotes HATE cars. And noise and lights. They don`t hunt next to a road. Thats why the hawk is perched along I-75. He hunts where the coyote doesn`t.

[Izzy]

When I 1st brought this topic up, I never meant to suggest raptor hunting seasons nor did I intend to vilify them.My intention was to suggest that if needed, organizations such as The Ruffed Grouse Society,Turkeys Unlimited,Pheasants forever,Ducks Unlimited and so on could apply and be issued permits to kill however many their studies determined what was necessary.I couldnt believe how many people despise coyotes but gladly tolerate hawks and owls doing what all predators were meant to do.I find it hard to believe that any wild animals including yotes kill for the sake of killing,it goes against their very own survival.For an animal to waste their own resources just doesnt seem plausible.They have evolved to kill for survival only.Again,not to say that raptors kill too much in all circumstances but they should not be protected at all costs while every other predator is not.And to the people who say they should never be killed legally because of their helpfulness in eating vermin, why havent we stopped killing snakes?Im not trying to sound like a scientist, just trying to make people question the reasons that they think raptors are off the table.