Coyote pups,,, pics

[Montana Slim]

Coyotes are a 'weed', in the sense that they can adapt to a wide variety of habitats.  I completely agree that they (along with coons, badgers, skunks, foxes, etc) take their toll on upland birds and waterfowl.  The nest success rates for birds in CRP or native grassland compared those in agricultural settings are absolutely astounding. This is primarily due to predeation by the gang mentioned above.  As for deer... I have my doubts on how seriously coyotes affect morality rates in deer.  Growing up in MT and spending ALOT of time outdoors I have seen plenty of 'yotes and plenty of game.  The thing we have is HABITAT.  The more intact natural habitat you have, the less susceptible the area is to 'invasive' species.  If you want to eradicated coyotes for hurting your game populations, you had better eradicate real estate developers, feral hogs, and housecats before you start in on the yote dogs, they are just a by product.  Hunting as "big money" is a whole other conversation woodduck - lol

PS - I have shot a few with a rifle, but I would definately not have killed those pups (maybe if they were feral kittens...).  I also don't think you were in any danger from the 'wrath of the coyote" a 40lb coyote is not likely to take on a person...

*Great pics by the way, that was a lucky hike and you have got something to remember it by


Ray

[gwhunter]

Where is the poll that Osagetree was talking about?

[Steve Kendrot]

Northern Prairie Wildlife Research center has spent a lot of time examining duck nest success in CRP fields throughout the midwest. They have found that in areas where coyotes are the dominant predator, as opposed to fox, duck nest success is often significantly higher. Coyotes suppress fox populations and possibly  skunks, coons etc.. and as a result exert less predation pressure on nesting waterfowl. With their larger home ranges, their densities are lower and they don't focus as intesively on the nesting waterfowl as the smaller predators do.

[Dan Chamberlain]

I'm reminded of a time I was gun hunting in Polk County Wisconsin where I grew up.  Saw a young feller pointing his rifle up a tree.  I asked him what he was going to shoot and he replied:  "Porkypine."  (I spelled it like he said it.)

I asked him:  "Why"

He Replied:  "They eat trees!"  This last said as if he were speaking to an idiot.

I asked him:  "If you look around, do you see a shortage of trees?"  We were in a forest.


I know there are varied opinions on this matter and there's room for all of them.  But coyotes have been around longer than we have and their populations expand and decrease in concert with the abundance of their food sources, just like any other wild animal.  Right now, because of a decrease in the severity of much of the winter kill based on almost thirty years of warmer winters, and the increase in habitat from farm set asides and posted land, the deer have exploded!  With that explosion, has come the coyote. With the coyote has come the controversy.  

To borrow from Falkner: "When the last ding-dong of doom has clanged and faded from the last worthless rock hanging tideless in the last red and dying evening, there will still be one more sound..." and that's the "Coyote's howl."  

Dan

[Kingstaken]

Maybe some feel to have the feeling to eraticate these pups, think those want to make them extinct. I don't feel that's the case.
In the morth east here, I've lost two deer to them while waiting to go back in the morning. I guess ones answer is not to wait. But thats what were taught. To dark, go back. We are seeing an explosion in the polulation.  Even with doing drives with 16 hunters, I've seen them come from directions where noone had driven or posted. Their all around.
Were simply are stating to control.
The thread that was removed by our illustrious members in charge where we were asked to vote on two questions. Who would have eraticated and should hunters control or leave it to DEC? The voting showed that those who had voted at the time I did, would not have done it,yet on question #2 said Hunters should control them. Makes no sense.
Same ole same ole.
You will kill scorpians, and snakes found in your back yard, I've even seen fawns taken, yet leave the pups alone.

[Osagetree]

gwhunter,
The poll was pulled, as some felt it was not an appropriate forum for this subject. It was also a multi topic thread which is not permitted. (I'm glad it was pulled!)

Steve K.,
Excellent info, thanks for taking the time to respond. You're brave man for chimming in. Thanks!

Vermonster13,
You sure know the public reactions to topics in this forum! Your input is valued by myself,, for sure!

Montana Slim,
Did you know my last name is "WEED"?
No wonder I did not kill the pups!    

Shawn,
I think most realize and understand the way you and alot of others feel about the dogs.
I respect your outlook and agree you should kill every yote you see. Heck, I'd like to hunt them with you if I ever make it that far north.

I never thought this post would turn into such a discussion, Verm13 saw it coming.....

I intend to return to the den tomorrow. I will spy it from the other side of the hollow with my bino's to see if they have been moved. I'll probably take one of the books Ray Hammond sent me and sit for several hours reading and watching the den from a far and down wind to hopefully determine if they are there. If they are there, I hope to return a few weeks later and observe again. When the pack is finally gone I'll try digging around in the den to see if any bones left behind.


Studies mentioned here state that many fawn carcasses were found in the dens during those studies. I'm no wildlife biologist, and I always thought that a mating pair helped rear the young together. By catching game, eating as much as they can before returning to the den. Then, the adult would regurgitate the materials for the pups to eat. This went on until the parent’s began teaching them to hunt. How could those yotes in the studies mentioned in this thread drag 20 or more fawns into the den and still have room for 5 pups and all those bones, hair and skulls? Maybe I need a link to educate myself more on their breeding and rearing behaviors....

Two years ago, I had two road killed deer taken to an area and left them for baiting in some yotes in hopes to shoot one. Before the baiting began, we had tried calling and had gotten responses from the yotes. But we never did get a shot at one. When they howled and carried on you would have thought there were 20 or more in a pack, probably only 4 or 5 dogs. Anyway it took the yotes a week to completely clean up the two deer we had left for them. I have to admit they were very effective stripping off the hides, I have seen people skin deer with less efficiency. They pulled the skins off over their heads to get to the good meat. We never did see a yote on the deer as they only hit it well after dark. (No spotlights were ever used!)

During that time, I did find a red fox close to the bait area dead and lying on its side in the open grassy field. I inspected the fox closely and found small puncture holes in several places on the carcass. (There did not seem to be a bite pattern) Though the fur seemed intact, I could not determine if it had been bitten several times. Or if the rabbit hunters who left as I pulled in that evening had maybe shot the fox with the attitude the fox was killing their rabbits???????  I felt it was the rabbit hunters that killed the fox! Rabbit hunters may kill more foxes than the yotes! Ever see a red fox run? You think a yote is a trickster watch them foxes run and evade!


Bobwhites are being reintroduced to this area that I hunt, and at this time there is no season for the quail. But, I saw plenty birds in the deer season. I hear them all day long during spring turkey season.

In this area, I also hunt wild turkeys. Between my wife two hunting buddies, and me we usually take at least three Toms every year from this 11,000-acre area that is designated for public hunting.


Every year for the last five to seven years we have seen or saw coyotes killed by gun hunters and black powder hunter while hunting deer or turkeys. Just this past season I got a shot at a yote running, but just my percussion cap went off. I’m sure over that time, some bow hunters have harvested a yote or two, we just don’t hear about it. Heck,,, I almost got an arrow off at one this year! Mickey said it was a pipe dream at 25yrds… LOL!

I consistently harvest nice deer from this area every year, even though it is public hunting, even though we have a coyote population. I see deer, turkey’s squirrels, rabbits, ducks, geese, bobwhites, foxes and other animals. I think that in my area there are a lot of hunters with fairly good ethics. We like to hunt, our DNR does a great job, Ohio has an open season for yotes and a lot of armed conscious farmers/landowners keep things around here in check. I feel blessed for what I have close to my home in regards to hunting area and game diversity, I thank God every time I’m out in the field.

STATS FOR MY State/County:
This info comes from the ODNR website and is based on bow hunter observations only!

I live in the most southern county on the Ohio map. I hunt public land bordering the next county to the east (Lawrence/Gallia line)

2005 Ohio Bowhunter Survey

The Ohio Bowhunter Survey is a program the Division of Wildlife uses to track year-to-year changes in furbearer populations, and to record sightings of special interest species such as black bear, bobcat and river otter. Because bowhunters typically spend many hours in the field observing wildlife, this group of outdoorsmen and women provide some of the best information on certain wildlife species that are difficult to monitor using other survey methods.
The information provided by bowhunters, such as the number of animals observed for each species, the amount of time spent bowhunting and the county in which that person hunted, can provide a measure of how abundant those species are in Ohio . This information is summarized and reported as the average number seen for every 1,000 hours hunted statewide.


 

 

 

 

 

This subject seems to have consumed my bored mind!    

Come on Shawn, I value your input!!!

[vermonster13]

Joe that is a very well thought and written response. I would value your input in the HIP Forum anytime. Well done indeed.    

[JL]

Interesting thread!

We can hunt them 24/7 year round, for a reason.

I will kill every one I cross paths with without hesitation or remorse. I see them as a highly skilled predator and also know they will always be around reguardless of how many I take out.

JL

[vermonster13]

A simple thought for those who would kill the adult if they ran into her while out this spring but not the pups. You are still killing the pups, just not cleanly or directly. Every action we take/don't take while in the wild has an influence. We may not always see it, but we should be aware of it and take responsibility for it. Of course it is much easier when we can ignore it, but that doesn't prevent it from taking place. There is a lot to think about presented in this thread and we each need to decide for ourselves what actions we can live with. Thanks for starting it Frank, it is everything I thought it could be.

[woodchucker]

The one BIG misunderstanding between our western brothers and us "eastern" TradGangers that I have seen (kill/not kill aside) seems to be the actual SIZE of the coyotes.One member commented "I wonder how many 65# coyotes are actualy 50# coyotes with 15# of venison in there bellys"

Well friends.....This is fact!!!!! The Northeastern Coyote is a BIG animal!!!!! Just as Whitetail Deer body size increases as you go farther north so does the size of the coyotes.ALL of the adult coyotes that I have shot have wieghed over 60# and MOST were over 70#. These were all weighed on a 350# "Deer Scale".(un-dressed,live wieght) In November of 2000 at my Dad's in Schoharie Co. NY, I shot an 85# male coyote.I was sitting on a stump,with Doe-in-Heat scent on my boots.The shot was 7 yards,I was using my 1967 55# Kodiak Magnum,with a cedar arrow (made by Joe Skipp) tipped with a 125gr. Zwickey Eskimo broadhead.The coyote was skinned,hide tanned,and sewn to a piece of green felt for a rug.The hide is 6 1/2 feet long from the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail.

What has impressed me most about this thread is that it follows the TradGang "tradition" of RESPECT. People have dissagreed,but tempers have not "flared". What has also impressed me is that while they may not be "scientific fact",most opinions are based upon eye-witness accounts. Everyones accounts are believed,and that person's opinion is respected,even though it is dissagreed with. I would just like to say that I am honored to be associated with such a fine group of Gentlemen. (and Ladies)

[Mr.Magoo]

Haven't read all the responses but I can tell you I saw several coyotes during the '05 season at a suburban spot I hunt.  Didn't see any during '06.  Why ... I don't know.  They weren't shot with firearms as it's a archery only spot, and I doubt they were killed by bow hunters.  They just moved somewhere else.  Deer are still plentiful.

I simply won't begrudge a natural predator its food because it might interfere with my hobby.  Luckily, my food source is about 4 feet away in the 'fridge.  Nature will sort out its predator/prey balance in the end.  Nor do I want to kill all of anything unless it's bugs in the house.

[Dawn Patrol]

Osage, this is an interesting thread. I will be the first to admit I can't figure people out but it  it was only a few months ago some fella killed a little tiny pig about the size of a  Two liter bottle Coke bottle and people were telling him what a great hunter he was and a month after that a lady killed an armadillo and got hateful PM's. It's strange how somr critters grt "respect" and others don't. Thanks for a good read.

[ishiwannabe]

Good info Chuck...I heard a rumor about DNA tests on the yotes around here. Something about, and I quote, "canadian red wolf interbreeding" which was thought to be the reason of the large coyotes around here. Know anything about it? Im hurting my brain trying to remember where I heard it...if I find it I will post it.
The respect factor is really awesome here...anyone can say their piece without worry. Uncommon in today's world.

[Shawn Leonard]

It was body parts that were identified and proven to be from 20 plus animals through testing. Although a lot of full size fawns were bought in. Ya ever see a coyote eat a fawn, it eats pretty much all of it as the bones are still very soft. This is a fact, DEC in NY has many documented cases of this. Ask Lee Miller who visits this site, he actually had our DEC come to investigate a den he found and was shocked at what they found. Lots and lots of deet were killed and eaten at this site. Shawn

[bentpole]

Osage tree hope your gettin better bud.IMPO great thread great pics.One more fact if you check the red fox population versus yote populations you'll also find less red fox as the yotes kill them too.

[Grimesville Assassin]

I do not think I know. I spoke to several ENCON officials this past fall. A camera was put in a den in Greene County for only two months, 23 fawns were taken into the den. That is one den with about 3 Adult yotes and some young.

Shawn, I agree on your stance. They are the Ultimate Predators, and do a Lot of Killing in the Woodland's. Hell I admire them for their Prowess! I know a Highway worker who had to remove a Culvert Pipe for replacement, adjacent to a major Highway. Just so happen's, a Yote Mother used this as her Birthing Den, and they were amazed as to the amount of Fawn Skull's and House Pet Collars that came out of that Pipe. I can't remember the correct number, so I will not embellish it, but it was mind Blowing!

[Osagetree]

Bentpole, See the Ohio bowhunter survey results above.

In 1990 Ohio bowhunters saw 3 coyotes and 18 red foxes for 1000 hours spent in the woods.

In 2005 Ohio bowhunters saw 12 coyotes and 7 red foxes for 1000 hours spent in the woods.

You could be right! But at this time, my county is considered medium population of yotes and high in red fox population!

[Kingstaken]

Some excerpts from varioous articles on the internet:

Northeastern coyotes are the largest coyotes in North America
Average weight for an adult female: 40 to 55 pounds
Average weight for an adult male: 40 to 80 pounds.

As most of us know at the trun of the century there weren't many wolves left.

Geneticists have found that eastern coyotes have varying degrees of red-wolf genes, thus accounting for their increased size and, at times, almost wolflike traits of killing deer and beaver and traveling in larger packs than western coyotes.


Thru DNA testing is was found that with the Red Wolf which was overly hunted had spread out as loners and mated with Coyotes here on the North East.
For example one of the biggest problems for the red wolf reintroduction project that was in North Carolina had been hybridization with coyotes. This is no doubt what happened in northern New England many years ago.
That is why Eastern Coyotes are larger then their Western counterparts.

Hybridization with western coyotes and the bigger gray wolves does "not" seem to occur.

[ishiwannabe]

I found the articles I was mentioning earlier...interesting reading either way.

 http://www.caledonianrecord.com/pages/local_news/story/fef373e9d

 http://wolves.wordpress.com/2006/10/10/eastern-coyotes-and-the-red-wolf-guest-opinion/

[Steve Kendrot]

Here's a link to an abstract for a paper I co-authored with some colleagues a few years ago. Sorry, full text doesn't appear. Canid genetics are pretty interesting.

 http://www.umich.edu/%7Eesupdate/julaug2001/fascione2.htm

I guess things have changed in the last ten years.40-80 pounds is a range, not an average... The heaviest coyote I ever encountered in Plattsburgh was about 50#, a male. I probably weighed 75-100 over the few years I studied them and can't recall a female much over 40. That compares to 20-25# for a western coyote.