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Author Topic: Coyote pups,,, pics  (Read 9417 times)

Offline Dan Chamberlain

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2007, 08:26:00 AM »
Osage;

Cool pics.  I found a den once as well.  They were just starting to explore the world.  The farmer who owned the property didn't want the coyotes harrassed as he didn't have livestock and they kept the woodchuck population down.  Funny thing about that farm.  I saw on the average of one or two coyotes every time I went out.  

I hunted that property for over 10 years.  When I started, there were no turkey.  When I stopped the turkey were coming on strong.  When I started there were no quail, but several large coveys when I stopped.  The deer population continued to grow with some really nice racks starting to show up.  

I can't argue that coyotes don't do considerable damage.  I know that in areas of population density, coyotes have killed a lot of domestic animals and may pose a danger to children as well.

But killing one, or not killing one is a personal decision.  You chose not to and personally, I applaud your decision.  Should one of them later fall under the sights of a hunter, then that is also as it should be.  Life is not a Disney film.  

Dan

Offline Izzy

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2007, 08:29:00 AM »
Another reason theres so many of them in some areas and why they become bold is that they havent perceived the human population in that area to be enough of a threat.If youve got too many of them get a trapping license or get out and hunt them.Ive heard a lot of people in my area and in the Adirondacks complain about them and then say they dont hunt them after deer season because "Its too cold" or theyre "too tough to call".Its our responsibility to manage them.I feel bad for commenting on this too much,sorry Osage tree,this threads really about the pictures and your experience.Thanks again Osage.

Offline Brack Man

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2007, 08:59:00 AM »
All of farmers I hunt on would be upset if I walked by a den and said "Oh, how cute". I probably would be invited in for breakfast if pulled in with those dead pups along with mom in the back of my truck.
Sam

Offline 4runr

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2007, 09:16:00 AM »
Very well stated Dan. Especially the part about life not being a Disney film. Most of our society sees life through that stinkin tube and some day our great country is in for a rude awakening.
Kenny

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Offline Str8Arrow

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2007, 09:19:00 AM »
Quote
Ive heard a lot of people in my area and in the Adirondacks complain about them and then say they dont hunt them after deer season because "Its too cold" or theyre "too tough to call"
That's odd. I go snowshoe hunting a couple times each year in the tughill area. I'll usually see 30-50 guys hunting coyotes. It's easy to spot them. They're all standing just off the road waiting for their dogs to bring the beast past them. In the tughill area alone, these guys kill many dozens of coyotes with no noticeable effect on their population. I have to wonder if the same thing might not be happening over most of the adirondacks. Maybe they're being killed, but are more prolific than the hunters are effective.

Offline doctorbrady

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2007, 09:32:00 AM »
I like piling up coyotes as much as the next guy, but I would have let the pups go as well.  We have an ever expanding number of coyotes here, but they provide as much "off season" entertainment for me as deer and turkey in season.  They are very cagey and will give any hunter a run for his money.

I found a den of pups several years ago while turkey hunting.  I got a few pictures (don't know if I can find them or not) and actually handled the little guys, knowing it was not a great idea.  The next day, the whole bunch was gone.  I suspect momma moved them...or ate them.  It's hard not to like the cute little buggers.

Offline LeeNY

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2007, 09:45:00 AM »
After seeing the damage that a pack could do as I reported in another thread during NY's Deer season. Which was a den with 28 fawn skulls. The only word that comes to my mind is (and this might be extreme)  :knothead:  "DYNAMITE"   :clapper:

Offline Grizz 53

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2007, 10:26:00 AM »
Great pics Osagetree. I have a particular distain for tha varmints myself. I was bushogging one day and spotted a mangy coyote crossing my pasture and without thinking the next thing I knew I was going after him on my tractor. Needless to say the bushog began to bounce like crazy and before I knew it I had a broke pin.[ Smart move] Stik to the guns and bow for coyotes boys. Tractors just don't move fast enough!

Offline jonsimoneau

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2007, 10:30:00 AM »
Those are cool pictures, and we have lots of opinions on coyotes.  
   It's funny the way they just sort of have shown up in areas where they did not exist.  My father told me that they did not show up in our part of Illinois until 1978.  
    The thing about coyotes, is once you have them in an area, they are nearly impossible to get rid of.  I don't think they do as much damage to deer herds as what people claim.  I actually have a lot of respect for coyotes, because they are so adaptable.

Offline ishiwannabe

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2007, 10:47:00 AM »
Wow this thread took off...
it seems to me that one major point has been left out. Here in Greene county, as well as the majority of the NE, the other natural predators that would help control the yotes are gone. Wolves, mountain lions, bears(are making a nice comeback here) all did their part to lessen the competition in the time of Ishi and his brothers. They are no longer around(for the most part) which makes the yote top dog.(Pun intended) Im sure these predators also had their affect on the deer herd.
I know there are too many locally. I have counted 27 in one pack from a treestand. With the loss of natural management, I think DEC needs to step up to the plate and at the very least do an intense study (state-wide) like the one Shawn mentioned.
That being said....doubt Im hard core enough to have killed the pups.
"I lost arrows and didnt even shoot at a rabbit" Charlie after the Island of Trees.
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Offline DarkeGreen

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2007, 10:48:00 AM »
I found 11 sets of bones behind my house last year. This is a no hunting area and you can hear the yotes howl almost every night. There are so many around here they come in our addition looking for food on trash day. I think I'd still have a hard time doing something with the pups. There was a time I wouldn't think twice about it though.

Offline flatstick96

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2007, 11:18:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 4runr:
Very well stated Dan. Especially the part about life not being a Disney film. Most of our society sees life through that stinkin tube and some day our great country is in for a rude awakening.
I agree with you that television has too much influence, but it's not all bad - I watch Animal Planet, Discovery, and TLC quite often with my two year old.  Many shows on those networks keep both she AND I entertained while teaching some very valuable lessons.

Now, back to the topic at hand - as mentioned previously, I really liked the photos.  There is something about observing the young of just about any species as they work their way through the early stages of development that fascinates me.
Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. - Mark Twain

Offline Onestringer

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2007, 11:22:00 AM »
Ok, I will chime in,  Coyotes have hammered the turkey population where I hunt, I mean really hammered.  The pics and story are cool, but if I would have found the den, I would have gone directly home, grabbed my wifes shotgun (I sold mine to buy a bow), and gone back and taken care of the little buggers and never felt an ouce of remorse.

PS.  Never arm your wife.

Scott
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Offline Hogtamer

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2007, 02:36:00 PM »
My 2 cents: Yotes are NOT a natural predator in Georgia. They came east (some say imported)and have thrived.  You guys in areas with big-bodied deer may not have the predation we do, but it is terribly destructive here.  Rabbits and quail have virtually disappeared and the deer population is greatly diminished from 10 yrs ago.  As far as our local ecology, yotes are harmful and unwelcome pests that need eradicating.  Their existence here is at the expense of the truly natural predators native to our area: red and grey fox and bobcat.  And I have been growled at by several yotes that objected to me claiming a deer I had shot only 30 minutes earlier.

Offline Osagetree

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2007, 02:40:00 PM »
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Offline Matthew D

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2007, 02:47:00 PM »
The coyotes weren't imported they followed the nice little path we left them called the Interstate. As for predation, I honestly don't know if they are all to blame for the decrease in rabbit and quail populations, I have a feeling that our constant need to spread a shopping mall to every corner of the known globe has a bigger impact than the coyote population. In a normal ecosystem, from what I have been taught, coyote and wolves compete with each other over resources and one of the reasons that coyotes do a little better is they go after things that wolves will normally not go after or not catch with a good kill rate..
Now personally, I don't want to see any "exotic" species being introduced into any ecosystem because you always get the same result as you get with coyotes, nutria, and other.. So killing the pups might be the most humane thing to do but it would be a bit hard for me...

Offline jeff w

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2007, 03:14:00 PM »
What makes a deer or turkey 'worth' more than a coyote?

Offline Osagetree

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2007, 03:35:00 PM »
That is a really good question!
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Offline hs6181

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2007, 03:42:00 PM »
Great pictures

If I had seen them on my property, yes I would have killed the pups, I wouldnt be happy about it. It would have been unpleasant but necessary for the overall improvement of my property and hunting.

cant say for sure cause I havent tried but I'd say a deer or turkey taste way better than a coyote.  :thumbsup:
Harold

Offline Steve Kendrot

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Re: Coyote pups,,, pics
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2007, 07:39:00 PM »
Wow... quite a response. I have no problem killing coyotes. I've killed of few myself when I used to trap. I just think they deserve more respect than to be made a scapegoat. I have to laugh when I hear people say they have to be "controlled" or "managed" as it will never happen as a result of recreational or sport hunting. Mortality rates have to exceed 70% of the adult population to cause a population decline due to a phenomonon known as compensatory reproduction. i.e. birth rates increase when mortality rates increase. They do this through actual increase in litter size, but probably moreso through the breakdown of social constraints on breeding behavior. When coyote densities are high, and there are few vacant territories, young will delay dispersal and remain in their birth range with their parents for a year or two, forming family groups or "packs." They forgo their own breeding opportunities to remain with their parents and assist with the raising of siblings. Kill the alpa pair, and the social structure breaks down and you now have two or three females breeding where previously you had only one. In this way, coyotes can overcome a very high mortality rate. I collared 19 coyotes in the Lake Champlain Valley in Upstate NY. Coyote hunters who used hounds were very active there and routinely removed 35-70 coyotes from my study area every year. They took a good many of my study animals.

I found that coyotes that lived in the ag lands fed mostly on small mammals and livestock carrion. In the bigger woods areas closer to the Adirondacks, deer were a more important part of their diet. Probably because smaller game was less abundant in mature forests and the pack forming behavior in these areas (which were largely ignored by coyote hunters) enable more efficient hunting of deer.

Coyote depredation on livestock and game can be controlled, but only through intensive effort on a relatively small scale. Integrated management programs incorporating trapping, snaring, calling and shooting, selective toxicants and aerial gunning from aircraft can reduce livestock and game depredations in small areas (lambing pastures and fawning grounds) when applied immediately prior to the spring fawning/lambing season. Do not confuse coyote depredation control with coyote population control...they are two different things.

I saw several references to "how they got here." Importations probably were a significant source of coyotes in the southeastern US. Not through covert DNR operations as I often hear, but rather by houndsmen who release fox and coyotes into pens to train their hounds. Funny thing happens when trees fall on fences. They collapse and the critters escape. Its a big business in the southeast and the live market for coyotes brings far more than their furs. In the northeast, coyotes established themselves as the western population expanded northward and eastward in the absence of wolves. Some interbreeding with remnant wolf populations in southern Ontario may have occurred, allowing for their larger body weight and addition of wolf genes. They are movers... one female coyote I collared in November of 94 in Plattsburgh, NY was killed the following spring on I-95 on the seacoast in New Hampshire, over 200 miles away as the crow flies.

I find that population densities are often grossly over estimated as well. A pack of 4-7 coyotes could clean up a deer in a few hours. Coyotes and wolves can consume massive quantities (10-15 lbs)of meat in short amounts of time. I've often wondered how many of those 65# coyotes are actually 50# coyotes with 15 pounds of venison in their stomachs... Average weights of eastern coyotes run 30-40 for females and 40-50 for males.   I hate to think that there are professional wildlifers out there telling people it would take 40 coyotes to reduce a deer to bones in a couple hours. Just remember, many of your conservation officers are not necessarily wildlife experts. The harmonies created by a howling pack of 5-7 coyotes often makes it sound like many more than that. Very few family groups exceed 8 coyotes, and in high density populations in high quality habitat, territories are 2-3 square miles. To see 27 coyotes at once would be a mindboggling experience and a biological anomaly worthy of documentation in the wildlife journals!

Feel free to kill them, just don't expect it to make a difference. Reminds me of the Doritos commercial... eat all you want we'll make more! On a regional scale, coyotes are probably not negatively impacting game species to the degree some sportsmen beleive. There are many cases where game populations have increased in the presence of coyotes. It just doesn't get reported cause who'se gonna complain? Sure, on a local level they can and do have an impact, at least  short term and I can see one being frustrated if it happens to be your farm they impact. Love em or hate em, they are a fascinating critter and deserve our respect.  The volume of responses here suggest that most do appreciate them in one way or another.

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