freedom is a function of space

[Dave2old]

Fellow politically-minded traditionalists ... by way of brief self-intro as to "where I'm coming from" with my topic: I am 61 and was born and raised in OK. Started shooting bows at 8, competing at 9, first deer solo "wilderness" deer hunt at 14 (rifle), first deer killed (recurve) at 18. Volunteered for Marines in 1968, at 21, for 6 years, during which I went from private to captain. Been living in CO for the past 27 years, sacrificing much professionally and materially (as has my wife, bless her) in order to live my passion of hunting elk with stickbows, and for personal freedom. I am very liberal in some ways, very conservative in others. OK, so ...

One thing I consistently note when reading these interesting and thoughtful threads, and in the broader world of hunting politics, is that almost all anti-hunter issues and concerns are focused in the East, including "western" places like Texes that have no public lands. It occurs to me that where we have little or no public land, and/or most good private hunting land is leased to the privileged, we the "common" Americans are herded together and these are therefore the places where we're most vulnerable to the antis. Also, these are the places where most antis live and are made, as without public lands to roam in, thenonhunting majority easily become detached from the real workings of wild nature, thus from the absolute necessity of predation in the workings of nature, thus from hunting.

All of this helps me to understand a longstanding frustration in that so many hunters are easily frightened and quick to take strong action when we think the antis are coming after our "right" to hunt, or the "liberals" are coming after our "right" to bear arms ... in both cases, we say to one another, this is because we want to protect the sacred American tradition of hunting, which is among the most meaningful ways we have of exercising our freedom as privileged Americans. Where the frustration comes in for me, is when the same hunters who stand tall against real or perceived assaults by the antis and/or those who would take away our guns (and maybe someday our bows)... these same hunters most often don't seem to give a tinker's dam about the fact that, now more than ever, our public lands wildlife habitat and America's best remaining happy hunting grounds, and thus, America's primary expression of freedom, are under constant assault -- by the current administration, by greed-poisoned extractive industry cartels, by the industry-sponsored ATV onslaught which seems determined to turn all of wild nature into a profitable motorized playground teeming with people who can't or won't walk anymore ... and more.

Now, thanks to all of you, I'm starting to understand this perplexing and harmful breach of unity, to wit: Most of us live in the population centers of the East, South, or Midwest, where there are little or no public lands and we really have to scramble to find a place to hunt without being part of a crowd. So naturally our defenses are aimed at the resulting, immediate and local, threats.

Same here in the West, where we -- and this is very real and personal for me and thousands of other westerners -- we are rapidly losing our old favorite personal "secret" public hunting grounds every day to the above-named pack of -- in effect, antihunting and anti-freedom -- invaders. Meanwhile, we have so many gun privileges out here (I have a concealed carry permit even though I have no need for it and never carry) and we're spread across so many millions of acres of public lands, and antis are so relatively few, that they can't effectively touch us.

So, even as eastern hunters don't seem to give a hoot, or enough of a hoot, about western hunters' problems, westerners don't pay close enough attention to our eastern brothers' concerns.

What a powerful force we could be if we all cared about one another's problems, even if I'll never hunter in NJ or Texas, and you'll never hunt in CO or MT.

Ah, but the culture of ideas gets in the way here too. Unless we become united hunters first, and Christians, athiests, Republicans, Dems, liberals, conservatives, etc. secondarily, "progress" is going to be the end of everything that's left of what's good and natural for us all.

And add to all of this, the fact that we have so many big, rich, and convincing groups who pretend to support hunters, while in fact venally castle-building for themselves: "If it weren't for US, the antis would end hunting tomorrow! Send us your money and give us your blind, thoughtless political allegance!" "If it weren't for US, the liberals would confiscate your deer rifle tomorrow! Give US your money and blind political allegiance!"

True freedom has never been won, or preserved, but blindfolded lynch mobs. I fear for us.

Good cheers, dave

Just some stray thoughts at happy hour on a summer's Saturday eve. Shoot straight, Dave

[vermonster13]

California is pretty far west as are Washington and Oregon.

[Lee Viv]

Thanks, Dave!  It's kinda like a "Not in MY backyard syndrome".  I know living here in the east, my main threat is the posting of private land, anti-hunter confrontations on public lands.
We really don't have much of an ATV problem, but I'm sure it won't be long.  The anti's where I hunt have even gone as far as putting nails in cardboard, and hiding them under leaves in the parking lots to be run over by hunters. Things are getting a little different there now that Bambi is starting to eat their expensive flora in their million dollar home backyards!

We're all in this together, and I for one will try to help where I can.

Lee Vivian

[Dave2old]

Vermonster -- Agreed: CA is a nation unto itself, and as overcrowded as any eastern state, moreso than many. I was referring to the Intermountain West. But geography was really beside the point of my point, which Lee captures in his final line, above, to wit: those of us with abundant public lands and a more rural culture, where anti problems thus are minimal or nonexitent, should not forget, or neglect to help out with, the anti problems faced by our brothers elsewhere. Likewise, it's a shame and a loss to us all that hunters who don't live in, and rarely if ever hunt in the West, are inclined to poo-poo our public lands problems and invaders, which are costing us hunting opportunities as surely as any pack of antis or posted signs. On a personal note, I don't appreciate being called a tree hugger, a greenie in camo, or an extreme environmentalist because I fight hard to protect and conserve my public lands hunting and fishing fair-access rights from the current and growing onslaught of motorized invaders, slip-shod and greed-driven energy development, and repeated attempts by the current political regime to actually sell off America's public commons. Again, Lee said in one sentence what I'm struggling to say. We would all fare better if we could all fight together. dave

[peter c iacavazzi]

Dave,

As always your writing is insightful, thought provoking and right on target. Here in Montana things are also going south (no pun intended).

We are losing ground and hunting opportunities to wealthy corporate landowners, greedy outfitters and snobish out of staters who have left the hussle of city to life to find there piece of heaven on the now famous "Montana Ranchette".

As the secretary for the Montana Bowhunters association I am priveldged to see what is coming down the road and whats being done...(or at least trying to be done). Sometimes I feel as if we're fighting a forest fire with a squirt gun. It seems the many expect the few to fight thier battles. I see the future here in Montana growing darker unless we unite to save what is left and protect the Wildness from the very people who claim to love it.

In Bozeman where I live aka (Boz-Angeles) I have watched wealthy, powerful Californians move in drive up real estate prices, change the structure of our town and begin to materialize and destroy the very "simple western life" they claim to have come in search of!

I fear the enemy is here! What can we do to stop it...or maybe slow it down so my son will still know wild places and wild wapiti when he is grown?

Respectfully, Peter

[T. Downing]

Pete,you are so right, we are losing ground! I really hope my two sons have the opportunity to hunt some of the same beautiful, wild places that I have been fortunate enough to hunt. As a native westerner, it is the simplicity and the abundance of wild places that has kept my heart from leaving. The more it gets diluted, the more I yearn to get away. It is strange for me to hear that Montana is experiencing the same rampant growth as colorful Colorado, damn shame. Hopefully the next generation,(my two sons, Tanner, etc) can hunt with freedom in ALL the wild places we all love so much. T

[peter c iacavazzi]

T,

Amen brother. I know the growing pains that Colorado is facing and has faced. Montana hasn't gotten that bad yet...But I fear its becoming the "new" Colorado. Thanks to movies like "Legends of the fall" and "A river runs thru it" every city folk' thinks their pot of gold is waiting in the Big Sky. Unfortunately once they get here the first thing they do is put up "NO HUNTING" signs and then ask wheres the nearest Starbucks??

BY the way, I'm flattered you used my quote! Thank you!

[HNTN4ELK]

Dave, Lee, Peter,
All of you are soundng Gabriel's trumpet to announce the demise of the west. They call Montana the last best place, and it is. But in just a decade of living in Missoula coming from Cripple Creek, Colorado, the change is tangible.

We are blessed in Montana with abundant public lands, however a larger and larger portion of that land is being blocked off to public access, by new land owners closing off roads which used to open to the public. We are seeing before our very eyes, our way of life coming to an end. Now it isn't all doom and gloom, but there are a lot more lands lost than gained.

We are seeing our elk herds being the political target of some landowners, who only want to kill only a few big bulls, and then want the game department to solve the problem of the rest of the elk eating their grass and hay when they do not allow any public hunting on their private lands.

Yes, I can walk out my back door and go hunt elk and deer on public land that I can reach by being given permission to cross private land...no lease, no high fence, no ATV. But I am very fortunate.

The west is changing, and not necessarily for the good. But, I work at trying to preserve our priviledge to access public lands.

Gary Carvajal

[Dave2old]

Gary -- I hear you. Ironically, in the Missoula and Front Range areas, Cabela's (whom we've all helped make the mega-rich monster they now are) is a major player, bying up private lands formerly open to public access, and selling them as rich-man's "hunting preserves."

"Call a place paradise, and kiss it goodbye." Montana has over-advertised itself, I fear. It's strange, living in these last best times, when so few among us even realized what is being lost, and how, and why. Dave

[peter c iacavazzi]

I'm with ya Garo...my MBA brother in arms. But they don't call Bozeman ("Boz-Angeles") for nothing.

Montana is paradise. It has always been my piece of heaven on this earth. But I fear that we are watching the beginning of Paradise lost. Let us hope that we the few, can stop those the many from destroying what we love about the last best place!

"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give!"

Peter

[HNTN4ELK]

Yup...

Garo

[vermonster13]

The point of my statement was that no matter where you are in this country, you aren't safe from the anti-movement and to ignore them is to give them freedom to spread their poison. As the urban areas get more and more crowded, these wealthy sorts by up land and ranches in our rural areas and then post them and spend money in legislatures to make where they have gone into where they have been.

Diligence and education are key.

[Dave2old]

I agree. And my initial message in no way suggested that we can ignore them here in the Rocky MOuntain West where they are not a big problem compared to all the issues outlined above. My point, which I seemed to have failed to make clear enough, is that we all need to stick and work together on all these issues. Eastern hunters in my experience essentially ignore western problems with public lands hunting areas being lost to the ATV invasion, haphazard energy development, and private land access issues, and I've often been accused of being some sort of radical environmentalist for even mentioning this stuff. Got so bad on the stickbow site that I quit going there. That's what frustrates me and I guess I was making a plea for understanding and support from our eastern brother and sisters. Restated, what we really need is for easterners to join our efforts to save our public lands wildlife habitat and hunting ops, and for westerners to pay more attention to anti problems outside our region. We now seem to be split. I've never been able to comprehend why so many hunters seem to think conservation is a dirty word. I mean, if we want to hunt we have to have game. If we want game, we have to have habitat. This is why I'm such a big supporting of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers  www.backcountryhunters.org,  which by the way has members in 47 states, not just the West. Trad bowhunters are our largest membership segment and I'd love to see all of us join. Thanks, dave

[Paul/KS]

You bring up some good points Dave.I notice that you are in Durango.From what I hear you are at ground zero of the influx.Isn't there a book,The Good Neighbor Guidebook for Colorado,written by some folks in your city? Heckofanote when you have to write instructions for living somewhere...
Habitat equals game and that is a fact.Hunting also benifits the habitat as it will maintain the balance.If it is done right...

[Dave2old]

Paul -- So true, I fear, though I've not seen that one yet. This town, and the "so cool" West, is just booming with wannabee writers who will sell their souls to the for publication and ego gratification. "The Idiot's Guide to All the Last BEst Undiscovered Secret Places in the West!" is sure to get you a book contract! None of them are traditional bowhunters. Selah ... dave

[peter c iacavazzi]

Dave,

I will certainly join the backcountry and hunters and anglers and push membership among my compadres. especially my Montana Bowhunter Amigos!! Lets fight the good fight. PS. I found a skull and antlers of a 383" bull on the ranch I hunt in Montana. He apparantly had been poached!!

Peace out brutha, Peter

[Alex.B]

David Petersen, you would make a great Prez. too bad you don't want the job! I understand, and I love you though!!

your "disciple" Alex.B

PS: my 1 cent about suburban sprawl stated in this discussion: Bad, but it happens, like Manifest destiny happened  :mad:  . and it is a Free country!! people moving from California and New-Jersey to Montana, Montana to Iowa, Colorado to Michigan, etc...AS we wish, no Soviet roadblocks
no problem. Some post "no hunting" signs,which in my book is OK, since it will keep Team Realtree and ATV's out of Natural lands, and some put "no hunting unless you got cash" signs, which in my book is immoral/obscene and ANTI.... wildlife

Peace, out

[Artur]

I have come to this thread rather late, but I still have something relevant to say about the topic...

There is an old poem, made "famous" during the Nazi Germany era, teling how one person did not worry about what the Nazis were doing with/to his neighbours -- because it did not directly affect him. At the end of the poem, the person laments that nobody stepped up to speak out against the abuses heaped upon him by the Nazis...because there was nobody left to speak out.

Do not become that person in the poem by not speaking out against the anti-hunting people, no matter where they may be. Today it is NJ, Illinois and other states which are in the "cross-hairs" of the anti-hunting people -- tomorrow it may well be YOUR state. Hunting and gun-ownership are no longer "rights" -- they have become a PRIVILEGES. Don't allow "them" to take them away from you. Remember: "United We Stand, Divided We Fall".

This message brought to you by a law-abiding (to the best of my ability, anyway), Liberal, Pro-hunting, Pro-gun Ownership, Personal-Rights loving, ex-Military (USAF), Democracy-practicing (I VOTE, do you?) Long Haired Freak. Yeah, politicians all lie -- but you have to learn to hear what is being said, instead of just what you want to hear, if you want to catch 'em in their lies.

[Talondale]

Dave,
   I don't see how your gripe has much to do with the government.  It seems more of a gripe against free market, private property, and the citizens freedom of movement.   From what I have heard in regards to ATV use a large segment of that is really law enforcement as there are tracts of land that do not allow their useage that are being violated.  It also seems that some states are trying to address the public access issues by negotiating agreements with landowners for access rights.

I understand your sentiment though.  I grew up going to a section of beach on the Carolina coast that was almost wild.  There were no paved roads, wild horses, and few people.  We could camp on the beach, fish with nets, and just enjoy ourselves. Each year the roads moved closer and closer.  Advertisements for lots appeared in northern magazines and people with large money started buying property and building multi-million dollar summer homes.  Traffic increased and you were no longer the only one on the beach for 1/4 mile.  Speed limits were imposed, a sheriff started patroling, no camping, no fires, etc.  We ended up selling the place and I'm sad my children will never know a beach with that kind of undevelopement.  I don't begrudge the people for developing there, I mean my parents did it, just 30 years earlier.  It's probably much the same way the mountain man view the settlers, and the settlers viewed the immigrants, and so on down to today.  We don't like change.  But it will continue to change unless economic depression drives people back to job centered cities or a shift in peoples ideals of what is desireable.

[Reg Darling]

If anyone thinks that it's a mere coincidence the American love of personal freedom arouse amidst a great wildness they need to think again. The wildness of our land and the wildness in our hearts are symbiotic. I've had the good fortune to live in the Allegheny National Forest (where I was born)most of my life. The Forest Service recently issued its  recomendations for a new ANF forest plan--the most environmentally friendly option involves opening 60% of the forest to clear cutting, drilling 12,000 new oil wells and setting aside only 5% for wilderness protection. Meanwhile the hunters refuse to retake their natural role of leadership in the environmental movement because they're afraid they'll have to ally themselves with someone they disagree with on gay marriage, abortion, or health care. We need to forget the liberal/conservative horse pucky our politicians and the media have spoon fed us and stand up for the wildness of our land and we need to get radical about it.