When does it end !!!!!!!!!

[Darren]

Ok I was at the archery range yesterday and one of the workers behind the counter was working on a bow "compound". This thing had every bell and whistle on it. The guy working on the bow was putting more fiber optic pins and extending them so the owner could collect more light at dusk or dawn "DARK". And then he flipped this switch and a battery operated light came on, I can't help but shake my head.Then the owner of the bow came in and said he would be good out to 80 yards now..........Well then I had to say something and boy did I get an ear full, like that's how you kill the big one if you only have one chance, then the owner of the store said to me, we don't make any money on traditional guys, now that was a slap in the face. Everyone there knows me and my "traditional" bowhunting accomplishments. I just said, I have taken many P&Y animals with no help of range finders,scent lock suits,trail cams, ect. Then I said what ever happened to fair chase. Does anyone here run into the same thing when they are at the range? Don't get me wrong I don't care what kind of equipment hunters are using as long as they are out hunting and enjoying themselves, but when you think you need more stuff / gadgets to kill bigger animals so some company can make more money, I think it is just wrong.

[bravedeer]

Your argument, who needs more equipment to get bigger animals. My argument, who needs bigger animals?  

[Al Dente]

Unfortunately, a line in the sand can only be drawn by you.  I am so opposed to new gadgets and thingamajigs on compound bows, and hunting items in general, that I still get the catalogs to laugh when in the head.  It hurts us all when techno-gadgets are being touted as "needed" equipment.  Woodmanship is being lost, survival skills are being lost, and I doubt if even 10% can use a compass or read a map.  We have a saying when we teach our hunter ed classes:  Mechanical is prone to failure.  It not only applies to mechanical broadheads, but to ALL devices, add-ons, bells, whistles, etc...  KISS.  And what happens when it fails you in the field? Do you pack up and go home, or can you still hunt with it?

[Bonebuster]

To answer your question, I believe it does not end.

Technology steals the joy. Or at least some of it.

All we can do is hope that eventually a gadget user takes notice of how much more we enjoy our
longbows or recurves, and decides to give it a try. Be there with a smile, and offer any help that you can when he/she does.

Happy trails.

[Darren]

I know the worst thing that can happen when I am hunting, is that a string might break, Thats when I reach into my pack and get the spare one. And Al you are rite about the compass. I know about 1 in 50 people that know how to use a compass and map. Thanks for the feedback.

Darren

[hockeyref]

There are shops that I haven't been into for 20 years because of this.... At a Gander Mountain I got "moved to the front" of a 15 person line - in my opinion - because I was starting to talk to another customer about the differences between using a long bow and a compound.... and he started the conversation by commenting to me about the recurve and two long bows they had hanging on the wall..

[Al Dente]

Stick and String with a spare bow in the car and as spare string in the pocket.  A couple arrows and that's it.  No release to lose, no peep to align, to sight pins to adjust or check to make sure it wasn't "bumped" off by a branch...shall I continue?  It sorts takes the fun out of messing up too.  I know if I miss, I missed, and can't place the blame on an inanimate object.  I just like it that way.

[rnharris]

the reason most shops don't sell more trad stuff is that most hunters are not willing to dedicate the time and effort to get proficient with a more primitive weapon.As for the sights and stuff it can make a good hunter and shot more lethal when used right i don't need that stuff but he is spending his money his way.I love the simplicity of a trad bow it's fun but that's not for everybody with a 100 plus whitetails with a compound bow i got bored with it and started shooting trad and love it we are all in different stages of the journey just have fun Ralph!

[matt schuster]

Until a hunter is willing to happily let a large animal (and large is in the eye of the beholder - although I have taken a few P&Y size critters, they were all a result of me just being out there - I am not a trophy hunter) walk at 30 yards he won't be happy being a traditional bowhunter.   A lot of the trend toward gadgets and gimmicks is driven by the growing hunting media and emphasis on antlers.  Down here in Georgia, we lose a half dozen or so traditionalists every year when their egos just can not handle watching a big buck walk at forty yards.   The antlers are more important than the process.  Now they might say that if they get within forty, or fifty, or whatever, that they have done their job and deserve to kill the buck.  To each his own.   Personally, you could put a world record out there at forty yards, hand me a compound, and tell me that I am guaranteed to kill it if I shoot at it and I would pass.  I will kill them on my terms or not at all, thank you - which is usually at eight or nine yards with a stickbow.   I also believe (but may be wrong) that folks tied up with gadgets and antlers do not have as much fun or get as much satisfaction from the sport as I do.  That makes me sad.   I do; however, believe folks have the right to hunt however they wish within the law and as long as they are not damaging the resource.  My goal has always been not to impune gadget-heads but to try and show them how much fun our sport is and how effective our equipment is.   Me and my buddies kill as much as most gadget guys and there is no magic to it. . just a little woodsmanship and patience. . dang, I am getting dizzy on this soapbox - better step off. .

[Mitch-In-NJ]

Here's my take on this.  First, if not for the compound shooters bowhunting may not be as popular as it is today.  And that's important because we are losing ranks left and right in the hunting community.

It follows that making it "easier" is not all that bad an idea.  For the working stiff who works 50 or 60 hours a week and doesn't have time to shoot every day or every other day and who only gets into the woods on Saturdays when everyone else is there... he needs an advantage.

That said, I agree that the widgets, gizmos and doo-hickeys are often overkill (that Knight and Hale arm rest thing kills me) but some hunters may find them useful or needed.

Is it getting too techy?  For me and you, yes.  I honestly love being in the woods carrying nothing but a hunk of wood and a string.  Stalking or still hunting it's just such a joy.  Plus I like to hunt birds and small game and a compound isn't really suited to the task.

But I don't begrudge users of technology.  Can there be too much of it?  Sure.  But it's subjective.

I say let the compound shooters keep driving the market.  At some point they may all come to the realization that hunting with a stick and string is much more fun and join us.  Either way, the bowhunting community keeps its numbers up and we ALL benefit from that.

Since my conversion I have been preaching the gospel of the longbow.  A teacher friend of mine asked for help teaching archery at her school.  I agreed but on the condition that they learned on recurves the way I did.

So, make friends with the compound shooter.  He's not that different.  Take him to a trad shoot.  Let him see how much fun it is and how LIGHT trad gear is.  See if there are any archery programs you can get involved with.  At a school, the Scouts, the Y or the PAL.

What's most important is the sport.  The choice of equipment is secondary.  But trad is better.  we all know it.

Okay, who gets the soapbox next?

[Wary Buck]

Matt Schuster hit the nail on the head with his post.  

I wonder if one reason bowhunting may be having a hard time recruiting newbies is because buying a compound bow is expensive enough, and then having to burn another $100 or more just to put all the gadgets on the bow that are "needed" is a daunting prospect.  As a kid I shot a bow and had a great time until Dad finally let me take the shotgun out on my own.  Predictably, the old Herters recurve bow gathered dust.  I then came back to bowhunting in college, and at the time I bought a used Browning compound, a dozen arrows and points, and the only gadgets needed were a shooting glove, arm guard, and a simple sight rack with 3-4 pins.  If I still had that set-up and showed up at any 3-D shoot or in any bow shop, they'd laugh me right out of there.

Quite frankly, I think we need to be concerned with keeping bowhunter numbers constant.  But I'm not in the camp that says we need to increase our numbers greatly in order to achieve some kind of political clout that won't come anyway.  Much of the allure of bowhunting is having the woods largely to yourself and experiencing nature in a 1-on-1 way that is hard to do with the crowded rifle woods.

As to the present, I am bewildered by everything apparently "needed" on the modern compound bow.  I am just am so glad I've gone in the other direction.  Simplicity is very sweet...  

My two cents...

[Shakes.602]

I Just Know, that  I LOVE  Watching the Arrow Fly! Archery has Plenty Of Room for  EVERYONE  who takes a Mind to Do It!!
   They are Bashing Us,  BUT .........That Doesnt Mean  WE  Have to Stoop As Low just for a Vengeful Gaff on their Bells, Whistles, and Doo-Hickeys!
    The Laughing Stops at the Target, then comes the Determination to "Beat the Tar" out of Our Scores. "Friendly" Competition is a  GOOD THING , but Seldom Is It Truely Friendly. I would Love to Shoot Tournament Paper, but it makes No Difference to Me, as Long as  WE ALL  Keep Things In Perspective! Dont Compare Apples to Cell Phones, Ok? Just My 2 Cents, and I will Shoot Alongside Anyone in the Shop!!  

[Wary Buck]

Shakes, I hope I didn't come across as bashing modern bowhunters; that was not my intent.  Heck, most of the guys I spend time with locally are compound hunters.  My three brothers, one sister, two bros-in-law, and my father shoot wheels.  But I honestly believe there are so many parts to a modern compound that it can be overwhelming to many.  Not to mention expensive (of course, the price of trad bows is pretty high too).  I know, for instance, that my dad would be far better off going back to fingers and a longer axle-to-axle compound; but a bow shop talked him into a release and new bow, and he's been struggling with that now for a couple years.  I just think simpler would be better for many bowhunters, even those staying with the compound.

[Brushcop]

Hey there Wary,
I'm 65 and shoot a compound but I'll be returning to traditional by building my own (haven't since my teens, I've got the low-tech tools and a bunch of local juniper to put to the test). My friends shoot a little of everything and the point is to enjoy ourselves and build skills and participate in some hilarious "competition", if that's what you want to call it. Prickly pear in Texas makes some good challenge material--gotta be careful!

I agree with the point of a longer (wheel to wheel) bow for your dad, I think he would be so much happier and with quicker--and better results and there are some releases that get him up "on the string" rather than feeling like you're a foot behind the string--yuk! Never let hi-tech bow "sellers" do that if possible, I wihs I wouldn've been with him on that purchase. Inevitiably, they are "selling" not finding the product to fit the person for better results, they're like car salesmen, it's just a gizmo and then there's all the gizmos they sell to hang on 'em.

Cost? Yeah, my little compound cost less than many wonderful longbows/recurves out there and it shoots fine, it just lacks that "pizzazz" that "connection" that captured me so long ago. But the compound came about because of some wounded soldiers in my son's Company. It's a long story and a fun one, but I'm turning this challenge they put on me back around by building a decent self-bow and on the next trip to Ft. Benning to visit, we're gonna get out there and challenge each other again. You see my idea, right? Maybe get them to build there own stuff (more therapy that they don't realize) and then shoot with it, nothing more satisfying.

I feel for your dad struggling like that. Keep on edging him toward a longer bow, then a simpler bow, then...well, you know...

[Angus]

My problem with compound shooters is that-not infrequently-comes an attitude that I'm not comfortable with.  My son and I saw this on opening weekend while out for blacktails in No.CA.  We were the only ones with traditional gear.  Everybody else was road hunting on ATV's.  We had to laugh as they'd drive by, bright red quads toting a fully camo'd compound shooter.  If they saw a deer we joked, it'd be "OK, just wait a minute `til I get this thing shut down, and get my self off the saddle...just a few more seconds...can you move a little more to the left?..OK, hold it right there...".  While I certainly waved at them, and most of them waved back, I don't see how cruising around the logging roads will help you take a deer!  The guy in the camp next to ours would fire up his ATV to ride to the toilet rather than walk-at best, about 100yds!  To me, traditional means being hunting a spot with both respect for the environment and the eons-old traditions of hard work, silence, and skill.  We've so lost touch with the natural world that it allows us to further alienate ourselves from what little we have left by riding around on a dirt bike rather than walking.  

Compounds certainly have a place in the world, and there are those who wouldn't be able to shoot with a traditional bow.  There's nothing wrong with that at all.  What I'd like to suggest is that those archers who need to take the ATV to the bathroom rather than walk-assuming they aren't disabled in any way-really need to re-learn to walk!  If I want fumes, I'll go to the city!

[Can Hahaka]

Technology has come so far and really THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING - Can you imagine that there is no reason that someone could not come up with a built in range finder screen that senses the motion of the heart muscle/lung area and a flashing sign that says "pull trigger now".

Keep the faith and follow your own path!

[MI_Bowhunter]

Originally posted by Darren:
... I just said, I have taken many P&Y animals with no help of range finders,scent lock suits,trail cams, ect.  

I'm not trying to be critical.  I understand where you are coming from, but thats exactly why stores don't make as much money on us trad guys.   We just don't use most of the equipment and services that they make a profit on. Most stores target the casual shooter or "weekend warrior" hunter because thats where the big profit is.  They are the ones most easily lured into buying all those gadgets that will "guarantee" them the bug buck.  They are the ones lured into the belief that shooting a faster bow with the latest sight and rest will make up for their minimal if any off season practice.

Per my experience the dedicated shooters of both compound and trad work very hard throughout the year to hone their skills and are extremely particular about the equipment they use.   Thats puts both groups in the outer fringe of what most marketers advertise for.

When I shot my compound I had to mail order everything because the stores only carried what I considered cheap and sub-par equipment.  I would never let someone else tune my bow.

Now I shoot primarily trad and I still have to mail order everything because now I fall into the other end of the spectrum and still don't use a majority of the items found in most sporting goods/archery stores.

As long as companies can sell the illusion that having the latest and greatest equipment is the only way to be successful the cycle will continue.  Consequently shooters at both ends of the spectrum are left to fend for themselves.

[HNTN4ELK]

Mitch said it, if it werent for compounds, a lot of people would not be bowhunting. We put about 2500 students through the Montana Bowhunting Education Class each year, and less than 50 percent of them buy an archery license the first year and less that 30 percent the second year.

Why? Because bowhunting is hard. Traditional bowhunting is even harder. Today though, a person new to the sport can go into shop and get all set up with only a measure of draw length and draw weight before shooting an arrow.

With trad gear it requires time, most do not have it or will not take it.

Yes the market is being pushed by the compound shooter, and the ever increasing focus on antler size at any cost, usually at the expense of ethical behaviour.

Gizmos are what the market wants. I remember about forty years ago, when taking a tour of the old Bomber Bait Company, I asked why they painted eyes on the plugs, the man replied "For the fisherman."

Forgive them father, for they know not what they do....

Garo

[MikeW]

Technology has come so far and really THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING - Can you imagine that there is no reason that someone could not come up with a built in range finder screen that senses the motion of the heart muscle/lung area and a flashing sign that says "pull trigger now".

I'm sure that's just around the corner. And hasn't someone already made a wire range finder that attaches to the bow? If they haven't it could done real easy based on deer's width from brisket to back.

[Al Dente]

I don't really think that it is the bowhunter at fault here.  We're human after all.  Be it a trad guy or a compound guy.  The manufacturers have all but taken the money out of your bank account for you.  The bowhunter is bombarded with ads, in print, on TV, on the web, and at the pro-shop/range.  YOU NEED THIS OR YOU WIILL FAIL!!!  That is the mantra being touted.  All it takes is one guy to put a new gadget on his bow, go to the range and show it off, then the guy shooting next to him just "has to have it".  People get caught up in the madness.  I don't knock anybody shooting a stick and string, with or without wheels, it's their choice.  

I just think we're getting away from the "primitiveness" of the whole concept of archery seasons.  When you rely more on your equipment than your skills, you're asking for trouble.