Where do you draw the line..

[MJB]

David,
ME TOO    

Mike  

[fflintlock]

I lost mine and can't find it. I took it off and old hunting shirt that just got to ragged to wear any more.
If we don't do it, the anti's will !

[vermonster13]

Exactly. Hard to be taken seriously in the legislatures if we're willing to turn a blind eye.

[Molson]

To answer the question, I draw the line at irreversible behavior, family and friends included.  If someone were hunting illegally and had not harvested an animal, I would tell them to stop, explain why, and inform them of the consequences if I find out the behavior continues.  If they are stupid enough not to stop, and let me find out about it, they get turned in.  Commit a tagging violation, overbag, or poach a deer, there will be no conversation.  You get turned in.

[Brian Krebs]

Molson is right. But it can be a move that haunts you. But he is right.
 I want to take the time to say how much I admire TJ for his stance with his girl friends father. I admire it and you TJ.
 I have noticed something over my 56 years on earth; and my decades of hunting: people that break the law lose. They might get away with breaking the law; but they lose.
 I have known a lot of people that have broken the law; both because I talk with other hunters; and because I have seen it happen.
 When people start breaking the law when hunting; they eventually lose the special thrill of hunting.
 I have hunted seriously for big game with a bow for 30 years this year; and I still get a thrill out of just seeing a deer. I get a thrill out of close encounters- like this year when 3 does with fawns walked up to me - the leading fawn was so close I had to move my arrow to keep it from running into it!
 Those moments are sooo very special to me; so very special.
  But I can tell you; that those that break the law lose the thrill. They lose the most precious things about hunting.
  Let us all look at TJs situation; and 'tip our hat' and be proud to be associated with him. Because it is the ethics in your heart that keep your heart alive..
  You don't HAVE to turn someone in for violating the law; but you really DO have to: NOT break the law-- to make bowhunting a perfect relationship with nature; and with yourself.

[Inhimwelive]

In my original post I mentioned the gray area. If you reread it you will see that I was not talking about a gray area in the law but the gray area in our own consciences of what we deem significant enough to turn in family or friends.. By the responses one can see there is a big variance in when someone would turn someone in..Some think that the same measure shouldn't be applied to traffic violations as to game violations. For me traffic violations are actually more serious because they are there to protect human life not just manage game populations. People die every day because of someone speeding or running a traffic control device.. However since everyone does it..........................

I in no way am advocating breaking the law.. What my friend is doing is wrong and I will have no part of it..However there is a gray area for me when I will turn someone in.. It lys somewhere between shooting a deer 5 minutes after legal light and poaching deer by spotlight at night..

[tim roberts]

In Bowhunter Education Classes, we sometimes have the instructor who is up to teach walk in 5-10 minutes late.  When he comes in he makes the appearance of having been through a stressful meeting, or phone call.  The first words out of his mouth are, well there is no more need for this class, you all can go home.  Due to the actions of others on this issue they have banned bowhunting here in Utah.  
Sorry for the long about way of making this point, but your friend is breaking the law.  There are places where someone who has the authority, and is not a fan of hunting could say thats it, enough is enough, we are done bowhunting.  After all, we can have shorter seasons and harvest more game with guns.  
Would there be any "Grey Areas" then?
I seriously don't think they are that good of a friend or family member,if they are willing to let you get busted with them for something they are doing.

[woodchucker]

One of the "issues" I have here is not whether or not they are breaking the law.....But what is considered "baiting" and what makes it "against the law".....

Let's get one thing straight.....I do NOT condone breaking the law.....PERIOD!!!!!

Baiting "laws" are very complicated.....You can "bait" for Bears.....but you can't "bait" for whitetails.....(?????   :confused: ?????) What is the differance between setting a bunch of popcorn and maple syrup in a barrel for Bears.....or putting kernal corn in a feeder for Deer?????

I had a friend that went out west on an antelope hunt.....The guide had a ground blind set up next to a "cattle tank". The guide told my friend "it's been really dry here lately,this is the only water for 2 miles in any direction,if they want a drink.....THEY HAVE TO COME HERE"

"baiting"????? YOU BET YOUR A$$!!!!!

"legal"????? It sure is!!!!!

But is it "ethical"????? Only YOU can decide for yourself.....

Trust me I know from experiance, Standing crops and food plots on ajoining property will lure deer away from your property just as fast as any "feeder" will.

What I can't understand is people who will thump their chest and tell everyone "I REFUSE" to hunt over "bait" legal or not"(for deer) THEN those same people will head North to a well known outfitter and hunt Bears over "bait".   :confused:

If it's illegal.....it's illegal.....

But I believe the "baiting" debate is more of a "moral" than a "legal" issue.

[vermonster13]

Not in case the law is pretty clear. Also this isn't a baiting debate. It is I have a friend/relative/whatever that is breaking the law, should I turn him in question. Though it has been turned into a self justification for turning a blind eye. Traffic violations, etc etc doesn't change a thing. The fellow is breaking the law and so is anyone who knows of it and let's it ride. Everyone decides what they can and can't live with for themselves and the consequences of those decisions.

As far as comparing baiting bear and deer, they are different species with different diseases that effect them, much different territory sizes and habits so different rules.

[woodchucker]

David, The "baiting" laws on the books have been there for YEARS!!!!! Long before any "disease" concerns.....

[vermonster13]

Depends on where you go. Wisconsin added theres as have many states after CWD.

Apples and oranges discussions do nothing though. The law is the law unless you do something to change it.

[Inhimwelive]

Honestly Vermonster13 I never asked whether I should turn him in or not because I already knew where I stood before I started the thread.. I am not trying to rationalize my decision because I am quite comfortable with it.. I started this thread basically for sake of arguement and to have ammo to counter my friends self serving beliefs.
But one question, Say what?? (The fellow is breaking the law and so is anyone who knows of it and let's it ride) -Could you show me where that statute is that says I am legally bound to turn him in???

[Molson]

Kevin-

It is possible to be charged with Complicity or Obstructing Official Business or similar crimes for failing to report violations.  It's not so cut and dry as it depends on your culpablility, the local court's interpretation, and how they apply the law.  You could also be held responsible in civil court if an innocent person suffers damages as a result of actions that could have been prevented had you reported it.

It's unlikely such an event would happen but the chances go up significantly with the seriousness of the violation, particularly if there is a great deal of public outrage over it.

The bottom line is, a friend shouldn't put you in a position to have to decide. If he's going to break the law, the least he could do is try and hide it from you, then talk all down on himself when you find out.  If he's a good actor, he might just convince you he has a touch of respect for your opinions.

[T.J.]

Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
You don't HAVE to turn someone in for violating the law; but you really DO have to: NOT break the law-- to make bowhunting a perfect relationship with nature; and with yourself.

Thanks for the really kind words. I think your last sentence sums it up really nice.

[vermonster13]

Aiding and abetting statutes can be funny things. Get a DA assigned to a case that has Pro-PETA beliefs or worse a judge and you could learn real quick how far reaching the laws can actually be.

[fflintlock]

This "baiting debate" seems to be a part of this discussion, wether we know it or not. The question of what is wrong or right has a twist to the subject. Is he wrong for doing it, when others do "kinda" same thing, and am I wrong for letting it go, after seeing others "kinda" doing the same thing ?
Natural foods are not baiting, in my humble opinion. Planted food plots and hand placed foods are baiting, again, in my humble opinion. Farm crops, I don't know, I've on occassion hunted them, had a tough time at it too, never got a deer out of a corn or soybean field. I myself do not like hunting over any man made baits and will not, wether it be bear over a can or what have you. Set up an ambush or get on a stalk. This is just me.
We all must hunt and abide, by whatever state laws are set in place, for whatever state we hunt in. Pure and simple !
The "industry" of hunting has generated so much revenue, that any more it is not what it use to be. You need this and that to bag the biggest buck in the woods. If you do this, you be on top of the heep, famous, all wise, picture in a book. Contests are out of this world for hunting trophies. You see it every day. They have a weapon for every season, a scent, call or gimmick for every type of animal. You never read about a 15 year old or a 48 year old for that matter, and his first doe, or spike in any national magizine, a simple rabbit or squirell hunt. It is always about the big trophies and what or how they did it to get that rack. We hunters as a whole, are doing this to our selves. We need to think alot about what and why we do this. We need to help each other "police" ourselves. We need to look into our own hearts, minds and souls when we go afeild and try to help guide new folks in that direction. A direction of a true woodsman and hunter, a conservationest. We each have our own reasons why we do what we do, and to each his own. But we all need to stand up for what we do as well. Some times it's a sad thing we must do, but we must do it, or we'll all just be sitting here typing out things like this, remembering the old days when we could actually go out and do it.
Just a simple opinion, of a simple hunter.
I'm not very good at typing out my feelings, I do better around a fire with a hot cup of coffee  
Jerald

[swampjoe]

Interesting conversation....but to answer the original question, turn in a friend or family member for baiting deer?  Nope.  My family and my friends are the most important thing in my life - if one of them ever did something illegal vis a vis hunting, they'd get told pretty quick and given a chance to smarten up or no way they'd be hunting with me again.  But the law is the law so I'm gonna turn them in?  Nah, the relationships with the people I love are kind of a priority for me.

[Molson]

Originally posted by swampjoe:

 But the law is the law so I'm gonna turn them in?  Nah, the relationships with the people I love are kind of a priority for me.

As Brian Krebs said, "it can be a decision that haunts you"... If you let it.  Most people are not emotionally strong enough to deal with the manipulation family and friends (your loved ones) are willing to put on you for turning them in.  If you can't handle it, then don't do it, but don't think for a minute that simply not hunting with this person eliminates the damage they cause by thier illegal activity.

I'm not talking about turning in every little violation you see.  As I said before, I draw the line at irreversible behavior.  Good people sometimes do stupid things and need others to set them straight.  Sometimes good people need a little more incentive to keep them from getting into more trouble, like say, a $200 ticket.  And bad people, well they just plain need stopped or they'll continue to destroy our resources for their own selfish reasons.

I will say this though, when you draw the line, and act when it's crossed, people will show you respect. You might have to put up with a little BS for awhile, but stick to your guns (or bows) and they'll come around.  If they don't, there wasn't really a whole lot to the relationship to begin with.

[swampjoe]

Molson:

I think you are reading something into my words that I did not intend to convey.  My apologies for the pedestrian attempt at putting thoughts on paper. I will try to state it more concisely:  I would not turn a loved one over to the law for anything but the most flagrant violation.  Deer baiting, in my opinion, is not that violation.  It is not for me to judge those that would choose differently.

Best wishes for a great fall to you and yours!

[Molson]

Joe, I know what you said.  I only quoted your sentence because it is a pretty common thought.  My post isn't directed at you or anyone else in particular, nor is it directed at deer baiting specifically. It's just there to give you (meaning anyone who reads it) something to think about.

Good use of the word "pedestrian" though.  I enjoy creative writing!