Quality Deer Management?

[pintail_drake2004]

Howdy yall, as a forester i manage several parcels of land for both timber and wildlife, and the most frequent request i get is to help the landowner get bigger deer. Why not, Illinois is the home of the giants! there is alot of money in leasing hunts, esp. if you have large bucks.
On the lands we manage we set a min. 13" inside antler spread and at least 4 points on one side. I encourage the landowner/farmers to abide by the QDM regulations. we also require that 2 does to every buck be taken. this helps with the herd population problem.
How many of you follow the QDM guidelines when you head to the woods with your trad gear? I understand it is difficult to harvest a deer with trad gear because of the limited shots available. But maybe this is a good thing, allowing hunters to focus on a good buck instead of taking anything that walks by.? and possibly taking that extra doe.

[Izzy]

With trad gear any deer other than a button buck or spike is fair game to me but with firearms I practice doe or a buck of either 6 points or 14" spread.I have noticed a difference in buck quality on the 275 acres I hunt since I started this 4 years ago and theres not much hunting on it or the surrounding state and private land.The rutting activity is tremendous there even though it may only be a spike or a fork horn but its cool to watch those little fellows and sooner or later big daddy will be hot on the trail of a doe.I can also see myself adopting those limits with trad gear in a few more years.

[Brad_Gentry]

allowing hunters to focus on a good buck instead of taking anything that walks by.  

You're assuming that big antlers are important to everybody. Personally, and as a fellow Illinoisan, I think the hunting opportunities would be much better for the average hunter here if our bucks weren't so darn big!

Brad

[Pat B]

I have been a member of QDMA since in begun in 1988. Joe Hamilton, the founder of QDMA, was a state biologist in coastal SC where I lived and hunted and got us into it.
  At our club in GA we have practiced QDM for about 8 years now. During bow season any buck 4 points or better can be taken. During gun season, 15" inside spread, at least 4 points on one side or at least 3 1/2 years old. We can take as many does as the law allows(in GA that is 10).
  We started practicing QDM to get members to study the deer before they shot. We tried to impress that we had too many does that needed thinning and that too many young bucks(1 1/2to 2 1/2yo) were being shot before they reached their potential. In the last 6 or so years we have seen more and bigger bucks, more 1 1/2 ans 2 1/2 yo bucks with good potential and there are still plenty of does for the freezer.  
  I agree that any deer with trad equipment is a trophy but with as many deer as there are in our woods, there is no reason to take small bucks plus for us it has really improved the herd in our area.
  Our club is only 250 ac but we have convinced our neighbor that owns the 2500 ac surrounding us to require QDM for anyone that leases his farm for hunting or who is invited to hunt it for a sit or 2.      Pat

[John Scifres]

How many of you follow the QDM guidelines when you head to the woods with your trad gear?  

I don't.

 

But maybe this is a good thing, allowing hunters to focus on a good buck instead of taking anything that walks by.?

I'm not sure if this is a question or a statement but I'll answer anyway.  I think the focus on racks as defining a good buck is counterproductive and mostly a result of marketing and our desire to shoot something bigger than the other guy.  Isn't it silly to measure bucks today against bucks of the past when most of the really big-racked deer are a result of what is almost animal husbandry?  Call it "Q"DM, call it trophy hunting, call it wildlife management...but the bottom line is most guys want a big deer so they can brag to their friends.

Don't get me wrong, shoot what you want.  But don't judge someone else when they shoot what they want.

Respectfully yours,

John

[tomh]

I hunt for the joy of it and for the meat. So mostly does is what I try to take. I could care less about getting a big rack. Not that I would pass it up, but it is not my goal. I dont judge people for passing on the little ones.
I dont think traditional bowhunters as a whole would make that much of a dent in overall deer populations, so I have no problem taking what is presented.
With some areas being so overpopulated with deer, I would think just the general thinning of the herd is needed, so as not to exceed the carrying capacity of the land.

I agree with John
"Don't get me wrong, shoot what you want. But don't judge someone else when they shoot what they want."

And I did take a nice tasty doe off an overpopulated Indiana farm last year. Yum!

[Tom Mussatto]

Don't get me wrong, shoot what you want.  But don't judge someone else when they shoot what they want. [/QB]

I agree. It should be a hunters choice when he buys his license what animal he does or does not wish to take, as long as it is legal, and it should be nobody else's business.

My beef is when public ground is designated as "trophy" areas with the restrictions put in place necessary to make it so.

Keep the point restrictions, spread limits, doe before a buck, and all the other QDM tools now being used confined to private property where it belongs. QDH (quality deer hunting) does not equate to QDM for everybody.

[vermonster13]

What gets lost and twisted in so much of these QDM discussions is the original goal was to promote better herd health for all the animals. Having a good buck/doe ratio and mature animals takes a lot of stress off of the herd. Larger racks are a byproduct of such management but wasn't the main focus. Unfortunately for many it has become the only goal and in many cases so that larger dollars can be charged for hunting access.

[wapiti792]

It comes down to choice. I practice QDM, not to enhance the deer herd as much to enhance my hunting experience. I respectfully disagree that it is some bragging board driven philosophy. I just like hunting mature deer. Try shooting a 6 year old doe...she's as wary as any Booner.

I think it's an evolution for some. I started out in Tennessee when I was 10 shooting deer with rifles. I'm now 37 and have taken a dump truck full of deer in my life. I just now choose to hunt mature bucks with trad gear, passing on anything I won't put on the wall, and shooting at least 2 does a year. I have no problem with what others do, I just choose to hunt nothing but big bucks, not because I want to brag, but because it's what flips my switch. Nothing is more fun than the dance with a mature deer! Besides if you shoot the first forky that comes along you're not going to have a chance at that monster waiting in the thicket to see if the sentry made it.

[Inhimwelive]

I live in Pennsyltucky where QDM is a law.. Do I see bigger bucks? Nope I see bucks that are just legal.. I think qdm may work well in a enclosed area but in the real world I think it just gives the poachers a nicer deer... I cant tell you how many gunshots I heard opening day of archery season..

[Jeff Strubberg]

I have some serious problems with QDM.

Point restrictions and spread limits sound like a good idea, but along with making the average age go up, they keep all the scrub racks in the gene pool.  

I support doe before a buck and wish that more states did.  I do not support antler limits.

[pintail_drake2004]

we use point restrictions to protect the gene pool. The scrub bucks may be culled at the end of the season if need be, but the areas we manage tend not to have too many that need taken care of. Who's to say that a buck with a small rack is of bad genes? I have seen some (mostly on farms) where they are small their first 2-3 years then they explode into a monster. I manage for Quality deer and better herds. Many for the people who have hired me and my bro run hunting operations where many of the deer we have managed for several years have grown into the 200"+ class range. We are talking $2000-3000/buck!!! That is alot of money, esp. if you are able to put up 12 hunters a year like 1 of the places we manage.
I am all for the challenge of passing on younger and smaller bucks, to take a mature doe with a home made bow. Knowing that in the future i will have record class deer to hunt for myself, and to lease to others to support me and the families i work for. To me, taking a record book buck with a reflex i made would be the highest achievment knowing that i was part of the equation that made the buck of that Quality.
Pintail

[John Scifres]

Pintail,

Again, with all due respect, I hope you can see that your last post is emblematic of the problem with wildlife animal husbandry.  It is primarily for bragging rights for the hunter and money for the landowners.  

Our hunting heritage is at the greatest risk from lack of recruitment of new hunters.  This is a symptom of our culture in many ways but it is egged on by lack of hunting access, escalating cost of hunting, and the negative connotations of killing for "score".  In general, turning hunting into primarily a business is wrong.  It is short-sighted and selfish.  In the end, the only evolution is to class-based, elitist game farms.

Peace,

John

[John Scifres]

One more thing about this and then I need to leave it alone.

If you are hunting for the challenge of killing a mature deer.  Doesn't managing to increase the proportion of mature deer decrease the challenge?  Where does it stop?

[Drew]

protecting the gene pool from what? The words "scrub bucks" and "cull" make me sick.

Call it QDM if you like, your "farming deer" for large racks and money.  Antler envy..

I tend to see this in black and white in my area. Loss of habitat due to farming, urban expansion, and trophy hunting for years have decreased the occurance of large rack deer in my area.  Now people hide behind QDM to grow big deer, have an excuse to shot does (like they ever needed one?) and charge large amounts of money for "their" big deer and leases.

I think QDM started out with good intentions, and in some areas they probably still are but it is mostly for "trophy" wall hanger hunting.  

I know every deer i have hunted was a trophy to me whether it was a small buck, doe, or a large buck.

I'm not disrespecting anyone it's just a choice it's not for me. I'm more concerned with a clean quick kill, a memorable hunt, and even more thankful that I can hunt than I am with hanging a huge set of antlers on the wall.

[Jeremy]

I think QDM started out with good intentions and like Drew said, maybe in some areas it still works that way.

As a tool to help balance the buck to doe ratio I can see it working... initially.  Letting the 1-1/2 yr olds walk has a big impact on that ratio, but so does *only* having earn-a-buck tags.  Don't see many places doing that now, do we?

I tend to agree with Mr Scifres on where hunting is headed.

-Jeremy (aka the guy who spent two seasons chasing around a piebald doe)

[bbassi]

good discussion. I'm sitting on the fence right now about QDM on my own place. I'm making some food plots, thinning some timber, and enhancing some cover, and regulating the hunting pressure. That being said, the people who do hunt my place set their own expectations, and I'm good with that. What trips my trigger may not do it for someone else. It's all good.

[pintail_drake2004]

I can see where you all are comming from, but wouldnt hunting with trad gear-in general-force people to take does, and wait for a mature buck? To split hairs, whitetailed deer dont mature body wise until they are at least 3 1/2 years and antler maturity is between 5-7 1/2 years.
I konw in my county we have 45 deer per sq. mile when we can only support 30-35. the doe to buck ratio is roughly 8-9 does to every buck. QDM encourages landowners to bring that number down to 3/1. This allows those younger deer-not only bucks-to grow up so we can see their full potential.
Some places in Illinois(typically up north, although we need it down here) have enacted a system where a hunter must harvest his doe before they may take a buck. I like this form of management and i do belive it would do Southern Illinois wonders. By doing so, wouldnt it give the bucks a better chance of making to the next year?

[Jeremy]

Originally posted by pintail_drake2004:
 but wouldnt hunting with trad gear-in general-force people to take does, and wait for a mature buck?

Why would that be?  Not meaning to pick on you or anything, just wondering as to the thought process behind that that  

IN GENERAL, trad bow hunters have a shorter effective range, or to be more precise, hold themselves to a shorter maximum range.  Seeing as how it's generally accepted that the closer you want to get to deer, the harder it gets to do it, that would 'force' the trad hunter to pass on fewer deer that are in the trad bowhunter's self-imposed max range.  In other words, whatever deer offers ME a shot this year in my extremely limited time in the field is going to find itself accepting the business end of an ash arrow  

OK, I got to lay off the cold medicine for a while....  :D

[Bonebuster]

Here where I live QDM is a joke.

Education is the key. Learn to judge a deer by its age, and not just antler size.

Most landowners here have property that is overrun with deer. They think QDM starts with total protection of does.

On public land, eighty plus percent of the bucks we have are killed at or before 1 1/2 yrs old from hunters, cars, coyotes and all the numerous other reasons deer die, so QDM is realistically out of the question there.

I sometimes pass opportunties at small bucks,
and have no regrets, but when I do shoot a small buck, there is no regret there either.