Quality Deer Management?

[pintail_drake2004]

I really appreciate your input here, QDM is going to be my Thesis topic. So getting the viewpoint of different groups of hunters is really a plus. In general, those who practice QDM and are successful are hunters who use firearms and compound bows. You dont hear of many who practice QDM that hunt trad gear only. For me, i would personally not shoot a small buck, or a small doe than take one before i can tell his/her full potential.

[hit some miss some]

For me the question is what motivates you to hunt? Is it a matter of keeping score? To me the meat is the most important and only reason to hunt. I guess my attitude is shaped by the area that I live in. Not to long ago hunting was a means of adding protein to an other wise sparse diet. That is what hunting has always been about until the idea of sport hunting evolved. Don't get me wrong I would love to take a large antlered buck, but it's not my main motivation. I think that any deer taken by legal means is something to cherished.
Brian

[painthorse]

Before deer hunting became a big MONEY head hunt we had the perfect QDM tool and it was called hunter access.
QDM,Outfitters,leasing and whatever else are doing one thing for Illinois deer hunting "killing it"
Slip over and check Paul Brunner's post about "The Golden Triangle" (too bad they locked it)Thats where your deer farms are taking hunting in this state.

[Jeff Strubberg]

I would say that you are looking at a symptom rather than the disease.  Trad hunters tend not to be concerned with bragging rights, so the main purpose of QDM goes out the window.

I think you will find just as many landowner trad folks who practice herd management as gun or compound shooters.  Not QDM, but herd management.

Please don't mention dollars and deer hunting int he same post.  Makes me sick to my stomach just seeing that.

[OkKeith]

Traditional Archery as a managment tool is actually used in some places. Here in Oklahoma we draw hunts for certian state and federal lands. The MOST sought after hunt is on the McAllister Ammunition Depot in SE Oklahoma (they even have a web site). At this location they have been doing habitat management and herd managment (QDM, or whatever you want to call it) for nearly 40 years. The result? Healty deer populations with good doe:buck ratios and really big deer (both body and antler wise). Hunters can ONLY use traditional archery gear if drawn in. Anyone can apply for the drawing (resident and non-resident).

I think we have more than one view point working here. 1. The hunter who wants a place to hunt that fulfills whatever his/her expectations are. 2. The landowner who wants to attract paying hunters for a financial gain (reasons for that gain are as numerous as there are people seeking it). Both are valid view points.

I pay to hunt on a farmers property. I have plenty of access to other state lands that wouoldn't cost me anything. I like the guy, his place has good habitat (because he is very conservation minded and is concerned about all wildlife, not just deer) and I enjoy hunting there. We don't have any harvest standards and although we could certianly harvest more does than we do, we regulary see and shoot good deer.

Personally I would rather shoot a big deer than a little one, and don't think that makes me greedy, or calls my ethics into question.

We all know what we expect out of the hunting experience and strive to make our reality match it. The american farmer has done more to increase the number and quality of the nations deer than they are given credit for (not just my opinion, but quite a few others as well). Coming from a farming family I can tell ya it can be rough to make a living. If a hunting lease fee helps to make the land payments or covers the taxes, thats alright with me.

I lease the access to the guys place, and the oppourtunity to spend my time on his farm. He doesn't try and gouge me and I don't take his hard work at making a living for granted.

I know this is a "hot-button" topic for a lot of folks, and respect everyone's opinion!

OkKeith

[pintail_drake2004]

OkKeith. GOOD POINT! I know one of the farms i work on-been friends with them for 18+ years-they have always had it rough. The past 2 years the cattle have had problems, and the crops aint been that good. Our wheat really hurt us this year, and the beans aint much better. The hunting leases will probably be what pays the taxes. They do not charge my bro and i to hunt, and we manage the farm for wildlife (rabbits, quail, and deer-not specifically in that order)Timber is also an important part there too. When we took the farm over in 2000, the average deer taken was 1-2.5 years and less than 6pts. No one wanted to pay to hunt. Here 8 years later we are taking 3-5yr bucks and seeing alot of 140"+. Now the leases are really handy because of the failed crops/cattle production.
Im glad to see that there is a place that manages its population trad only. do you have web addy for that, i would like to look into it a bit more for a project.
Pintail

[oneshot1]

Sorry Pin-Tail I have some problems with your whole dealy here on this...Protect the gene pool???taking of the larger animals KILLS the gene pool long term. Managing a wild animal herd has NEVER worked by killing off the strongest. You are selling a service which will destroy the herds health, to operation's who's bottom line is Big Bucks for Big Deer.

[OkKeith]

Pintail,
Here is the link to the Ammo Plant hunt:
 http://www.mcaapcontrolledhunts.com/
Take a look at the video of the two bucks fighting during rut.

I have drawn into it a few times. It is a great hunt. The restrictions are tight but for good reason (tighter since 911).

There have been some really good bucks taken there, as well as some heavy weight does.

Our Dept of Wildlife Conservation (ODWC) has on-going reseach projects there as well (worked on a few as an undergraduate) and the resource managers that work for DoD are top notch! They have shown that selective harvest based on age (not really number of points or antler spread), and controll of the doe:buck ratio is successful. This place is not high fenced, these deer come and go as they choose, so these managment techniques are really applied over a greater area than just the federal property.

Good luck with your project. Let me know how I can help.
OkKeith

[pintail_drake2004]

thank you

[Brian Krebs]

Deer are a prey species. If you are going to improve the 'quality' - should it not: be in the development of smarter deer...not bigger racked deer?
                                                       
 
 That I think means making them all understand that they have to be smart to survive; and that means they all: have to be targets of hunters.                                          
                                                 
 I do not see letting a deer walk by a hundred times; over years - so he can be a bigger buck : as QDM.
                                                 
  It is purely and simply DRM ( deer rack management).
                                                       
  Used to be when all bucks knew they were being hunted- the big rack meant you killed an animal that was really smart; and really wiley.                                            

 That should be the idea; to make deer smarter.

                                                    Then again I like to HUNT.

[OkKeith]

Hey ya Brian,
That's a very good point. I tell ya though, if the deer around here get any smarter they will be letting the air out of my truck tires while I'm hunting!

I like to hunt as well, and am not all that hung up on antlers size either. Although as I said before, I would just as soon shoot a big deer as a small one.

We all have some sort of managment scheme for where we hunt whether private or public. If we hunt private land we might have some say in how things are done. If we hunt public land we may still have some say (public meetings, etc.) but depend on others to make those decisions on the sharp end.

Even "no managment" is still managment of a sort.

The way the fellas manage the MCAAP certianly wouldn't work where I hunt because we don't want to do things that way and are perfectaly happy with our results as they are. It's just a decent example of what might happen if someone is willing to do the work.

OkKeith

[woodchucker]

I have to agree with "oneshot1"!!!!!

 I have seen it with my own eyes in the Catskill Mountain WMU's that are designated QDM units.You do not PROTECT the gene pool at all.What truely happens is that as soon as the bigger/older bucks become legal,they get killed. Leaving the "protected" spikes and forkhorns to do the majority of the breeding.

QDM may work on a private fenced in game farm.

HOWEVER.....It does not,and will not ever work on heavily hunted public land.

[woodchucker]

Here is some "simple" math.....

The "optimum"sex ratio is 1:1,however considering we are talking about "public land" we will figure that things are not "perfect" but they are "good" and the buck-doe ratio is 1:3.

There are 40 deer in a 10 square mile area.

10 bucks- (2 8-pointers,3 forkhorns,5 spikes)

and 30 "breedable" does.

The "main" breeding phase of the rut lasts approx. 10 days.

Being as a buck will usually spend 24-48 hours with a doe breeding her several times over that period,each "mature" 8-pointer will only be able to breed 5-7 does during the "main" breeding phase. Leaving the remainder of the "breedable" does to be bred by the spikes and forkhorns.

Because the "mature" bucks are killed as soon as they become legal while the spikes and forkhorns are "protected",this allows the smaller bucks to do the majority of the breeding.

This is why QDM will not work on heavily hunted public land.

Thank You all for listening.....I'll get off my soapbox now.

[CheeseHead]

I see a lot of black and white responses.  Certainly you can't believe that the topic is so simple that a black and white answer covers every situation.  Most people seem to be personalizing this to the tract of land that they are hunting.  Maybe QDM doesn't work on your tract for whatever reason, but maybe it does work on another tract.

[MCNSC]

As I see it most of the hunting population strives to make shooting a deer as easy and effortless as possible( feeding,rangefinders,high letoff compounds,foodplots,attractants,sentblock clothing and on and on)and then want to shoot large bucks as to somehow add some chalenge back to hunting.I also hunt with a rifle and will pass on most deer bucks and does as shooting one with a rifle is not much of a challenge. If I want to shoot a deer then I take my recurve or longbow. If I can get a deer in range, be presented a good shot angle, manage to draw the bow undetected when the shot is presented, then that deer is in trouble. Although I will probably pass on button bucks and spikes and maybe small forks or sixes or maybe not.
 I know of one lease where the owner limits the members to 2 does for the whole season but you can shoot 5 bucks any size. They kill some huge bucks (for this area)every year. My theary is that the high doe population draws in bucks from the surrounding areas.

[pintail_drake2004]

Cheesehead: that is a good point. I have been fortunate enough to have the QDM work on all the parcels i manage.

[Gurn]

I passed this year on a decent 7pt becaused he looked very young. I figure he's gonna be a dandy next year. This was a personal choice. Theres no way I would encourage or expect someone else to do the same. If he had of walked on and got waxed by another hunter I would have been happy for him. If I had no deer in the freezer already I would have done my best to take him. If it's about anything other than the meat then alot of things the antihunter groups say about us are hard to deny. Isn't one of there main points that alot of us just kill for trophys??
I know there's suspose to be alot more to QDM than horns, but that seems to be one of the most talked about parts of it.

[Scott J. Williams]

The only place I have seen them work is in places like Texas.  The Texas Parks and Wildlife Division understands this, and allow for a late, Doe and Spike season.

This in addition to Managed Lands Permits, on lands being managed to state specifications based on a unique formula, which will allow for the taking of so many scrub deer that should be taken out of the gene pool.  This really works toward fostering the better health of the herd, by providing for the harvest of these deer, and providing greater hunter opportunity.

Most hunters will shoot a big deer if they get the chance, but most bowhunters want a chance to take a legal deer.  I don't have the patience to become a Trophy Hunter, I don't want to pass up that much back strap!

If you are introducing kids, new hunters, women, it might be a good idea to place the focus on deer, not Pope and Young deer.

[Brian Krebs]

What is the scoop on spikes? I used to believe that they were 'inferior' but after seeing lots of huge bucks with antlers- in March(wt). And seeing pregnant does in September; I wonder if spikes can be the late off-spring of the biggest bucks.( assuming that the early antler drop younger bucks don't breed after they drop their antlers).
 ie: it seems the older bucks hold their antlers as they are still being exposed to does in heat; and late bred does are more likely to end up with a spike with them.
 I am willing to be wrong; just stating what I have observed and trying to make some sense of it.
               

[laddy]

I was told that in Iowa spikes and some forkies are from september bread does, and fawns still with spots in the fall are from february bread does.