problem dogs

[Doug Deese]

PDK25, Spoiled hunting for humans is not the big/important issue here.  It is very aggravating to have it happen to you when you put a lot of effort into a hunt though.  These animals roam day and night.  They are very wise and remember there domesticated training and benefits and are not afraid to venture into domesticated areas for comfort but will always return to the forest to ravage the wildlife.  I have seen LAbs, German Sheppards, Pit bulls and Rotwielers that were at least 75% wild in the woods and were full of hate.  I have had dogs track me and come to the bottom of my tree stand and look up at me and growl.   Up in Northern New York they have Coydogs(Coyote/Dog) that are now established in that area and a nuisance.  

I have hunted with dogs for bobcats, ducks, doves, deer, rabbits and raccoons over the years in Georgia, North Carolina and Ohio.  I love hunting with dogs.  I have always owned dogs as pets.

Hunters/Farmers/Pet Owners have all got to be 100% responsible for their animals.  They must have control of their animals or pay the price if something happens because of the animal.  They should spare no expense and effort in training their animals so they can keep control and exhaust all possible measures to find the animal if it gets lost.

Here in Alaska the Dept of Fish and Game are very active in preventing any feral non-native species from colonizing here.
As I mentioned earlier Guam has a very aggressive approach towards feral non-native animals.  We had depredation teams that would shoot deer and pigs along with the Boonie dogs and cats every night 360 days per year.  They were all destroying the jungles on the entire island.  They were over populated in a big way.  

Whos to say that it cant get that bad at least in some areas of the US if we don,t act responsibly now.  Im not saying blast everything that spoils your hunting area(dogs,coyotes,cats).  Game and non-game animals are managed well in most states but the "GREY" area is the Domestic animals that are making it into the wild and are not being managed and throw off the balance in an area.  They will exterminate deer, rabbits, quail, turkeys, cattle etc.  

Im just saying that once a person has seen these activities several times and has exhausted all measures in finding the owners or a non-lethal ending then the person should take care of the problem by killing the dogs as quickly and humane as possible.  You cant just turn away and let someone else deal with it just because its a domestic dog and resembles the family pet(SSS)..AKbearb8

[jrchambers]

i belive if you have a dog spoil your hunt oh well they have just as much right to wander out and about as you they cant read private property sighs or know that a high wire fence means stay out, this is one matter.  the owner of the land would then have to complain and the dogs be restrained, just because a dog or two is wandering by a tree stand doent mean they want to mangle a fawn, nor does it mean they wont.  if you witness or know they are causing trouble and the owner does nothing, kill them, any way that gets it done if you dont think you should shoot it with a arrow than you probably shouldnt try and kill anything else either.  the dogs around here hassle cow and calf moose, many times the dogs get what they deserve from the mother, so does the owner, they usualy have to drag their rear legs home and the owner has to deal with them.  the packs that learn their lesson then become a direct threat, last winter i had a pack come try to lure my lab out of the entryway, i went around back and the biggest badest dog in the pack was waiting around the corner, i put a judo between his ham and base of tail, later that same day they came back, they showed direct agression twards me.   I shot another in the neck with the judo.  the very next day they chased my wife down the road when she was on a run with our 10 month son in the stroller.  over the next week i began using broadheads, i got two, the other four got smart and started coming at night or other houses.  i set up a couple 55gal drums with some old fish and a trap door, when i would catch a dog i would make shure it was one of the four, many times it wasnt haah twice it was my own.  if it was a bad one i would back up the ford, run a hose from the tailpipe to the barell.  
    anyway if they definatly bad seeds dont just take them out when convinient, persue them.  I cant stand it when i hear about a good dog being killed by other or worse a kid.

[CheeseHead]

There's a huge difference between a dog screwing up your hunt and a dog running deer.  If you're talking about a dog that happens to run through your woods by your stand, there is no way I would shoot it...even if it was on my land.  More than likely its a neighbors dog, and I'd hate to have to tell the neighbor kids that I shot their dog because it screwed up my hunt.  However, if I catch a dog running a deer, I'll shoot it and not look back.

[Matt E]

Most of us here know at a glance if a dog is feral or not. If feral shoot it, if not let it be. A dog by nature will chase things from a ball to a deer, it comes natural. I see very little difference in another hunter chasing deer than a dog.You wouldn't shoot another hunter?
When it comes to cats, shoot them, period. Cats that roam will kill anything they can just because they can. They count for more dead wildlife than any other animal,this is documented,not just my opinion.The sad thing is, it is not the cats fault, it is the stupid negligence of man.Cats, like all of this worlds creatures have their place but it is not in the woods!
"Getting a dog, is the nearest thing to picking your relatives as it gets"

[Brian Krebs]

Here in Idaho; if you shoot a dog without the permission of the law; your in deep legal trouble.

 A deer has monetary worth here; but so do dogs. It is hard to train dogs to chase bears and lions and cats- without having them get onto a deer now and then.

 I have pointers; german wirehairs; and I have seen deer run to my dogs; and punch them with their front feet. So I can tell you that sometimes the DEER starts the fight; and the chase.

 My dogs are purebreds; and expensive dogs. I have  charged $1000 dollars as a stud fee; and sold pups for $850 dollars. They are indoor pets as well as  hunters. If I am out bird hunting; and deer chases them and a chase ensues- and somebody shoots my dog- I am not going to be a nice person to be dealing with. Think about it; do you want to be paying a dog owner for pain and suffering: and punitive damages; and the value of the dog.. etc etc etc?

 Here in Idaho; I can see deer for a mile or more when I am hunting; and my dogs will range out a hundred yards or more to find; and 'lockup' on birds.

 With those kind of distances involved - I can see things and how they develop. Its not always Bambi and thumper frolicking in the grass - and the mean dog shows up. It is often the deer used to wolves and coyotes; that not only stands its ground - but charges the dogs: while they are hunting birds.

 When I was much younger; I saw a group of dogs chase and tear apart a cow; and I did not shoot the dogs; and boy! I heard about that!

 I have also spent the night sewing up sheep belonging to a farmer that let me hunt on his property; and who had two german shepards kill and tear apart dozens of his sheep.

 Like I say here it is now NOT legal to shoot someones dog- even if its chasing your livestock- let alone wildlife.

 But even in a state where its legal; if you shoot a dog; you better be rich enough for a good lawyer. Dogs are pets and mans best friend; and if you want your face rubbed in the mud- then get caught shooting one- legally or not!

 If the owner of the dog is there; you might need a good doctor.

 There are times when dogs have to be shot. But dogs have run from one side of this country to the other to find their masters. If you gun down Lassie just before she finds Jeff--- your going to be on the cover of the PETA news; and could end up on CNN with your concern over the deer; and your deer license to prove your 'loving intent' towards deer.... if you get my drift.

 Shoot shovel and shut up? Better do it fast; that hole might just get big enough for you: if the owner gets there before your done.

 I am hopefully clearly stating the situation you might well face: if you decide to shoot a dog.

 For the record; if my dogs start to chase a deer: they get a lead peppering; and know I am pretty ticked off. But they live...

 I think shooting a dog is the worst political thing you can do as a hunter. Think about it real hard before you act.

[jfish]

Wow how things differ depending on where you live for sure.  However, just to point out the contrast, Va State Code orders that any dog found chasing livestock or killing poultry is to be killed on sight.  As you read below keep in mind the State Code does not even give the Officer the choice.  It states the "officer shall kill".  Powerful words regarding dogs.  

   3.1-796.116. Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry.

It shall be the duty of any animal control officer or other officer who may find a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock or poultry to kill such dog forthwith whether such dog bears a tag or not. Any person finding a dog committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section shall have the right to kill such dog on sight as shall any owner of livestock or his agent finding a dog chasing livestock on land utilized by the livestock when the circumstances show that such chasing is harmful to the livestock. Any court shall have the power to order the animal control officer or other officer to kill any dog known to be a confirmed livestock or poultry killer, and any dog killing poultry for the third time shall be considered a confirmed poultry killer. The court, through its contempt powers, may compel the owner, custodian, or harborer of the dog to produce the dog.

[BigCnyn]

Brian Krebs, that is not correct..
Idaho Code 25-2806 (2)" ANY PERSON, on finding a dog not on the premises of it's owners property or possesor, worrying, wounding or killing any livestock or poultry which are raised and kept in captivity for domestic or commercial purposes, may, at the time of finding said dog, KILL the same and the owners thereof can sustain no action for damages against any person so killing such dog.

[robk]

my understanding is that if dogs are interrupting your animals IE: trying to kill your animals you have that right. the rest i am not sure on. if it were me i would have to take out the animals only after i tried to contact and see if the owner or owners would take control of their animals or if no one claimed ownership then i would rake matters into my own hands and leave them for yote food
rob k

[BigCnyn]

Idaho Fish and Game Regulations, page 12

Any dog found running at large and actively tracking, pursuing,harasssing, attacking, or killing ANY big game animal EXCEPT, Black Bear. Mountain Lion, may be destroyed Without Criminal, or Civil Liability, by the Director,any peace officer, or others persons authorized to enforce Idaho wildlife laws.

In other words, any time a dog chases wildlife in Idaho except those allowed, That dog  could be destoyed no matter what the value..
I hunt bird dogs also, pups do wierd things, deer starting chases, whatever , in the right place wrong time could be destroyed.

[BigCnyn]

that would and could be nice, ROB K, but, it doesnt happen that way. We have some that shoot, and then call the police, sheriff, and The dead dog cant talk.. The shooter is protected, unless witnesses say otherwise..

[Brian Krebs]

BigCnyn
 My dogs live on 3.5 acres; and run the fence line everyday. My neighbors horse loves to run with them; their is a path worn into the ground by the horse doing this. One fine day my neighbor saw the horse running along with the dogs; and threatened to shoot them.
 Keep in mind the dogs were on my property and in the lead; ignoring the horse; and as well MY livestock.
 The deputy that showed up said that if my neighbor did shoot my dog(s) he was going to lose in civil court; as the law had changed concerning shooting dogs.
 I took this to be the truth.
The fish and game law is as you stated- for the officers to carry out; and while they may pass that to a regular person- they have to pass it on; you cannot act on that rule by yourself.
 ( not that you implied it)
 The law you referenced is in regard to livestock and poultry; but I knew a woman ( Theresa Teevan) that was an assistant to the attorney general; and she said the law had been changed to NOT include poultry.
  I think if a dog is in chase of livestock: the dog is not going to be the winner of anything.
   Laws change in Idaho; and laws change without the consent of the people. The fish and game has the habit of suggesting laws be changed; and the commissioners might change the law in the regulations- without any legal change in the law.
 Then too; laws are passed in Idaho that contradict the Idaho constitution.
  Sentator Craigs situation proves that politics in Idaho.. is well... not as it is in other states. Take the wolves........please  

[BigCnyn]

Well,, I am a court Marshall,
 and I asked my sitting judge for his interpretation, he looked at the current Idaho Code Book, the current Idaho Law Supplement, so the law that I stated is indeed in tact.. If the dog is on someone else's property disturbing livestock/poultry , that person or any person protecting that stuff may shoot them.. Then its their burden to state what happened. so if they are on your property they are safe.. on someone else's???

[Brian Krebs]

"Then its their burden to state what happened": perhaps that burden has increased?

 The truth is obvious in this: either way- Brian is right !   :D

[KodiakBob]

One word of advise from an old K9 handler DO NOT attempt to catch these dogs. Even friendly dogs bite. You don't want to loose fingers or if a pack maybe even your life. Ignore them, get the DNR/Police involved, call every day if necessary, or shoot them "Gun".

[Bard1]

thanks everyone for your replys.  I am assuming these dogs live in the area since I have seen them on the property before.  I haven't seen sprinting after deer, merely trotting along following their scent.  They won't come to me, I tried that.  They do not look starved.  The property is my fathers.  I am back home here in Cali now so there isn't much for me to do.  At least I have a better idea what to do in the future should it happen again.  
thanks.
Derek

[Gurn]

The last two years we hunted our property in Kentucky the hunt was runied by dogs CHASING deer, not just wandering by.
$200 each for mine and my sons tags, 16hrs round trip driving,$150 in gas,$200 motel cost, and more for incidentals, food ect. All to sit and watch two dogs running deer all over our place.
A fellow two houses down who showed me his dog said "If you see my dog running deer on your property, shoot him." I will try and go there in the summer and talk to more people in the area. If they are still there, they wont go to waste. I'm sure the coons and possums will have a feast on em.

[cherokeeghost]

basically i live in the country, have 3 acres, its not fenced. It was a nice quite place when i bought it found deer tracks right beside the house. Thenn in the spring a neighbor got atleast 5 or 6 pups of various breeds, they run wild get on my porch in my trash. They are starving and there owner wont do anything. started with an airsoft gun to run them off, now up to a high draw wieght slingshot. They run when they see me. But the kids like to play in the woods when they are here, the dogs chase them. I dont like the idea of putting the dogs down but when you step out on your own land and get charged or growled at.... one of these days i might not stop them with the slingshot.
My wife contacted the sheriff, he said if they are on your land,destroying property or getting into trash, take them out. period
thinking of stepping up to some bunnie busters.

[Brian Krebs]

I guess I need a different way to say this.
People get really upset when a stupid duck gets an arrow in it; what was the reaction of the country when Michael Vick used dogs for fighting?

 You want to shoot dogs; go ahead. You might well do the absolute worst thing for hunters that you could possibly do.

 Laws concerning the shooting of dogs are old; and now we live in a day where dog is truely mans best friend.

 If you shoot someones dog; you had better be prepared to deal with the dogs owner; and with their attorneys ( right or wrong - you still could end up paying attorneys fees) and stimulating people to give money to anti-hunting organizations ( like with Micheal Vicks situation).

 You risk your own life; you risk revenge; you risk hunting.

 But go ahead - do what you think is right.

[Mrs Stickman]

Originally posted by Brian Krebs:

 You want to shoot dogs; go ahead. You might well do the absolute worst thing for hunters that you could possibly do.
.

Brian,
With all due respect, I think you are wrong.  
A few years ago, there was a hunter who shot and killed another hunter because they got in an argument.  The gun control lobbyists had a field day.  Every time there is another shooting in a mall, school or post office, they go on a rampage to try to limit our right to bear arms.  We aren't talking about Lassie out for a stroll here.  We are talking about a dangerous animal that will, given the chance, kill. Would you think twice about it if it came after your child? your spouse, or you?  If it was a grizzly, mountain lion out of season, would you hesitate? It's really not about hunting.  It's about animal control.

I love dogs.  Right now I have 3 of them sleeping at my feet. I have had dogs my whole life, lived with them, trained them, hunted with them and slept beside them.  
I have watched expensive hunting dogs attack livestock on our farm and kill it.  I have seen pure bred dogs and mutts alike attack children and adults.
Hear my heart when I tell you that I DO NOT want to shoot a dog but I will shoot to kill any dog who attacks another animal or person without just cause.   Even if it's my own - very much loved pet.  Sometimes you have to do what is right even when it is hard.  I'll take the consequences any way they come to me.

[Brian Krebs]

Mrs Stickman

 I can answer some of your questions with facts.

1. the Idaho department of fish and game has used my self defense killing of a mountain lion; with my bow- as an example of when you should kill a mountain lion- even if it is out of season.

2. I once killed a doberman pincher that had a hold of a friends leg.

3. I have killed many of my own dogs when it came their time. And few people allow dogs into their heart and life as I have.

When Michael Vics 'hobby' was discovered; it was a pretty sickening sight. CNN told people that they could help by donating money to two of the biggest anti-hunting organizations in the country. I checked out those sites; and they both made it clear the money they got would be spent the way they wanted.

I would not hesitate to kill my own dog if I thought it nessesary; and I have four in my little cabin; and 4 puppies in the kennel outside.

My youngest son is a professional trapper; and he traps cats and dogs that are loose on private property. Sometimes intentionally at the request of the land owner; and sometimes as incidental catches. With foot hold traps; properly set and configured he has returned many pets to their owners. Dogs and cats that got loose; and wandered off; dogs lost while hunting; animals that jumped out of vehicles - and they were animals that were quite capable of returning to their owners and never being a problem again.

 Other cats and dogs had to be either taken to the 'pound' ; or destroyed because of their behavior.

 A friend of mine went hunting ( from Michigan) in South Dakota for pheasants this last fall. His old female griffon got onto a bird and didn't return. He searched for days for it; and had to return to Michigan without her. A farmer reported seeing her; and he went back and found a hay pile with a deer laying next to it; with its antlers cut off; and a bullet hole in it. His dog was not there; but it had been feeding on the deer and sleeping in the hay pile.

 He returned to Michigan again; after leaving posters and talking to local farmers. He was fortunete to get a call - his dog was found; and he got her back; but he ended up driving over 5000 miles in the process.

 People love their dogs! I grew up in the fifties with 'Jeffs collie' and reading books about Lassie and Lad; and Donnybrook.

 To see and shoot a dog trespassing on your property might be well within your rights; but I am saying that when you do; you take the chance of killing someones best friend. You take the chance of alienating people; and making enemies.

 Also you take the chance of angering people to the point they might strike back with equal force. And too the chance people will move from a neutral stance on who you are to a negative one.

 If your a hunter; it might well be a move to becoming an antihunter.

 Yes; I have stayed up all night sewing up sheep torn apart by loose pet dogs. I know what they can do. I know what has to be done sometimes.

 I also know the deep wounds it can create- whether the situation was right or wrong or just unacceptable to the person that does the shooting.

 I am strongly saying that if you do decide to shoot a dog; do it after serious thinking; because you could end up very dead; you could end up with people becoming anti-hunters; and you could end up being the center of contraversy that ends up benefiting anti-hunters.

 The only real thing I disagree with you on is that it very well could be a 'lassie out for a stroll' situation. Some people are just looking for targets; and if you don't understand that; you need to - to understand the gravity- of what I am saying.