Special Season/Special Rules for Traditional bow

[Scott J. Williams]

I have studied this a great deal, nobody would require you to hunt the traditional season. You would still be allowed to go with the crowd while hunting with your traditional gear.  What is being said is that there needs to be some separation for those who want it.  

It has been suggested that the separation would allow for the game managers to make game harvest regulations based on the difference.  In other words, if I have a controlled group of traditional bowhunters and I can compare their harvest to the other group.  They should see, and  rather quickly that our success rate is lower. They might be more willing to give us a few extra days a season.  

The way it is now, they see archery equipment, and see a 20% greater in some areas ,success rate, so they saddle us all with that rate, and we aren't truly making that kind of impact.

ET is right, the way things are going the any weapon thing is going by the wayside.  We can try something different, or wait to have them paint us into a corner we might never get out of.

[vermonster13]

Better do more studying. You are way off base. I know the folks this is all originating from and many of their own supporters have changed course on this idea. Too many things that aren't good for us that can come from this. If you can't be effective with your weapon of choice then you need to decide if you need to make a new choice or can live with your "SELF IMPOSED LIMITATIONS".

There are around 30,000 Traditional Bow Hunters in the U.S.A and many of those aren't Trad Equipment exclusive. There are 3,000,000 licensed bow hunters in the States. Cater to the few and raise the ire of the many.

[et]

Vermonster,
Please elaborate on the "many things that aren't good for us...". As I am very pro separation (if we start to lose hunting days because of the effectiveness of the compound). Not sure what you are implying about "self imposed limitations". Yes many of us would rather have days in the field, then a guaranteed kill.
Being the "uber hunter that I am,   " I have little doubt that I would be over 50% hunting with a compound, and have historically gone 100% with the rifle. Trad is around 30%. Yes, I do hunt for the meat but I really don't like the idea of losing days in the field because of other hunters choices. I don’t see the trad season existing because  ‘I deserve more of a chance  because of my gear (gotta get mine)”, but because statistically my choice of equipment  has a minimal impact on the game numbers .
I wouldn’t support a Trad season that limits other user groups ability to hunt; simply maintaining the status quo for those of us that still hunt with the gear that allowed for such liberal seasons.

I am interested in your answer because I have been wrong or at least changed my position once or twice before.

et

[vermonster13]

This is the kind of conversation that needs to take place on the phone or around the campfire. It is lengthy and involved. It also gives fuel to folks who don't need it regardless of what weapon anyone chooses.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by et:

Back East it seems that the game is abundant to the point of almost being a nuisance (white tail deer) and access to game is the challenge the average hunter faces.  

That's pretty much been my experience here in IL and up north in WI.

[Molson]

Originally posted by vermonster13:


There are around 30,000 Traditional Bow Hunters in the U.S.A and many of those aren't Trad Equipment exclusive.  

In other words, there are 30,000 people who hunt (sometimes?) with traditional gear, not 30,000 Traditional Bow Hunters.  

Kinda makes you wonder just who's driving the car.

[et]

If the reasoning behind the "many things that aren’t good for us' is so solid that it can only be discussed behind closed doors, I will confess that I am an utter baboon that should not be privy to such enlightenment as the masses may miss interpret the discussion.
 I will throw out for fodder that just as there are significant differences in regional ethics and accepted practices there are significant differences in threats to traditional archery hunting according to region.

et

[vermonster13]

I've been through the wars over protecting our hunting rights before on a national level and have become a much more cautious person for it. I've already proven myself in that arena and it is one of the reasons this forum even exists here to have such threads. I would have been more than happy to fully discuss my reasoning with you over the phone as I have done with many others.

[et]

Ok, I didn't realize that you were truly that available and I will try to follow up with a personal contact as the option of finding a campfire is incredibly limited. I took the above post as a way to shut down a conversation that may be slightly controversial.
 I have no idea what you have done in the past nor do I wish to imply that your thoughts are not well reasoned.
With out discussion I am left with my previous held beliefs. I am feeling that there is a significant regional difference between the western trad archers and the other side of the Mississippi. I would hope that the purpose of the forum is to exchange ideas before some one such as my self who certainly lacks experience in public policy charges full steam ahead.

Sincerely, Eric

[HNTN4ELK]

I am not in favor of any season to further divide a hunter's weapons choices---there is nothing to gain.

In Idaho, and in my own home state of Montana, we have as Brian Krebs described somewhat of an elk problem, too many elk on on too little private ground. It is not an issue of too many elk on public land where 90% of bowhunters and trad bowhunters hunt.

Introducing a traditional only season will only serve to further divide bowhunters. If the equipment, ie; the compound bow is your personal issue, then work at getting reasonable and responsible archery equipment descriptions and requirements in your state big game regulations.

Trying to get any trad only seasons will from my experience, only serve to water down any game department and public support and will end up further eroding and dividing all bowhunters--for the record, I do not percieve the crossbow as archery equipment.

In Montana, we can hunt in the bow season, and the general firearms seasons and in most other weapons restricted hunts from beginning in August 15th for antelope to late season hunts into mid January for deer, late season elk hunts into March with our bows, asking for a trad only season or region or hunting units in this state will not go over well and would have little real support.

Kind of a fun idea to toy with, but like an autopilot in an airplane, the pilot is one who controls it, not the autopilot....

Gary Carvajal

[Scott J. Williams]

It is interesting to me, that there are streams in this country that require you fish them with a flyrod.  To my knowlege it has yet to cause a loss of fishing prvileges to anyone. I don't hear the Bass Anglers crying foul.  

Again, there is not always strength in numbers, or wisdom in numbers, if that were the case, this country would not be a Representitive Republic, it is not a Democracy, which equates to mob rule.  

If my thoughts threaten, beliefs, should upset anyone, I am sorry. dialog is what this subjects needs, and by people who are involved and know what they are doing.   However, the sooner we understand that the difference between modern bowhunting and traditional bowhunting is as great as that between firearms and modern bowhunting the better off we will be.  

This is certainly something that should be brought to the light.  We should all check our reasons for being for  or against this.  I have received consideral support for my position as well as my share of critcs.

This is not a complaint, for I choose to hunt with this tool of limited range, that requires a great deal of practice.  This limitation should not be overlooked, and that which is good for modern bowhunters is not always good for traditional bowhunters.

Let's not forget that the whole idea about doing something like this was to benefit those of us who hunt with traditional tackle only, and are interested in increasing hunter days afield.  If you don't want to take advantage of something like this, don't.  If you are happy with your situation and  business as usual fine.  

I can't help but think that some of the comments  sound just like the gun hunters did when it was suggested that there should be a separate season for bowhunters.....Hummmmm the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[vermonster13]

The total success rate of archery hunters in Idaho is 14%

Nationally we lost 500,000 hunters from our ranks in 2006, we have now dropped to 12.5 million from 13 in 2001.

186,000 people participated in all forms of hunting combined in Idaho in 2006.

More folks participated in wildlife watching and spent more money on it than on hunting for the first time by 2 million dollars spent in Idaho.

23% of the population hunted and fished while 39% were wildlife watchers.

More numbers later

[vermonster13]

Colorado had a stretch of years when a person had to decide either bow or gun for the entire season. Archery license sales dropped off the board and the DNR was practically bankrupted. It took ten years for them to recover after going back to the original way.

Primitive firearm seasons were originally meant for flintlocks and the like. Many hunters saw this as an extra opportunity to fill a tag and bought muzzleloaders(DNRs saw these tags as a way to increase revenues and hit management goals with a declining number of hunters) Inlines came about because of the large amount of failure to cleanly kill and recover animals by folks who went out and bought smokepoles and the failure of management numbers being reached.

While hunting to us is something quite a bit more, to DNRs we are simply wildlife managers and a revenue source.

If a Traditional only hunting season is introduced it would most likely follow the original muzzleloader model and be placed after all the other hunts are closed for the year. Folks will once again see this as an opportunity to expand their hunting seasons and buy equipment they are unfamiliar with. Low success rates and higher wounding rates would most likely result. These would not bode well for Traditional Archery.

There is more but this I am sure will get things started.

[BigCnyn]

I see it that way also...I Choose to hunt during the Archery Only Season with my equipment, limiting myself to My Ethics, I don't need to be separate or an Elitist, I Don't want to see Others using the Trad only season to expand theirs, buy buying a bow and not getting what its about.. I hunt not to Take, that's a goal, but , the true experience of that hunt..

[Molson]

Vermonster-  I had an idea this would be a large part of what you were talking about and I agree with you to a point.  

What I don't agree with, is an "everything or nothing" approach to these issues.  There's a difference between having a separate season and creating additional opportunities. There are positive ways to promote traditional bowhunting without creating seperatist attitudes and without encroaching on existing seasons.  

Everything has its dark side.  Everything.  That doesn't mean you give up.  Instead you focus on solutions and creative ideas to minimize risks and reach your goals.

[et]

V13,
If the requirement to hunt a trad only season involves a sacrifice I think it would weed out those who just want a late season "chance" to fill their tag. Prior to ID going to Zones for elk we did have just what you described. "Everyone" who hadn't filled their tag from Boise to Idaho Falls descended on the Challis area in November, self included one year. Though I would like to see some modifications to the Zone system it did stop that problem.
Late season hunts can bring out the worst in people. There was a December hunt (archery)just outside of Twin Falls that deteriorated due to the desperation of those with unfilled tags. ATVs and vehicle drives on the deer. There does need to be a mechanism to limit the opportunist.

Low success rates, IMO, are not an issue in ID. F@G will always go to any weapons hunt when they want the numbers knocked down, though there are few places where we have much of a surplus of game anymore.
Those here know the effectiveness of trad gear (archery and muzzleloader)depends on the skill of the user. I always assumed that the inline push came from industry needing to find a way to push their wares, not DNR trying to increase the primitive season harvest.

I realize I haven’t been very clear on my position in the previous posts as I have blended two scenarios, 1) my stand if we start to lose hunting opportunities due to efficiency of the modern compound then I would argue for separation(though it does have risks that need to be weighed)
2) Why not create revenue, provide extra days a field for those that are willing to sacrifice their any weapon tag and accept gear limitations?

It is amazing that hunting lands seem to be shrinking at a rate even faster then the loss of hunters. In ID it appears that the number of hunters per acre has increased.
Thanks for the voicing some of your concerns about this issue as it is important to hear view points one may not have considered and the cold reality of facts from those that have debated this before.
et

[vermonster13]

I've asked a few others who have been involved in this sort of thing before to post to the thread.

[Scott J. Williams]

ET,
     You have hit the nail on the head. It seems that everyone is more interested in protecting what they have, even when it is not threatened.  

     Where the heck did "elite" attitude come from. Just because I don't hunt with a gun, muzzle loader, compound or crossbow gives me an  elite attitude. Now if I said I was a better person than someone who did not see things my way, that would be true. I and many people share my view that those of us who are willing to pay a little more, and willing  not use any any weapon tag, should have some consideration of a special season.

     I say again, what is the harm in that, and how is that a danger to anyone.  I say it again, it smacks of the pre-archery season attitude.  I don't take a deer every year, although not for lack of trying.  I would not touch a gun just to fill a tag, and there are many who feel the same way.  I love hunting with the traditonal bow, with it's many limitations.  

I am a little tired of explaining to others that my bow without wheels and cams is not the same as the one's with them.  One thing that is being missed here is the fact that many of the people making the decisions on your seasons are not hunters, they see bow and they think it is all the same.  Few are bowhunters of any kind, they are legislators.  They will go on recommedations based on the numbers, or polictical correctness, or donors.  Say what you will, hunter success for compound shooters have been going up and up.  The converse cannot be truthly stated.  There is a finite amount of game, and revenue to the state should not be the sole factor, although I admit it is important.

     While nothing will be settled here, each state will be forced to deal with this issued at one time or another.  The method by which they choose to deal with it will be with us for a long time to come.

     Some may view this as a hunting issue, others view this as a bowhunting issue,  I and few other view it as a Traditional bowhunting issue.  Just my thoughts, so we will agree to disagree.

[woodchucker]

As I have said before.....I do what I do.....

BECAUSE I WANT TO!!!!!

Have we reached the point in time where we do not do anything unless it "benefits" us????? Do we really NEED "special" seasons????? Mr. Williams states.....I am alittle tired of explaining to others that my bow without wheels and cams is not the same as the ones with them. Mr. williams,I ask you this.....Why do you feel the "need" to explain this to others????? (and Mr. Williams please do not take offense because I'm simply using what you said to make a point,Why do we NEED to explain ourselves to anyone?????)Isn't just using traditional equipment satisfying enough for you????? More than a few times each year,I don my orange camo jacket,pick up my bow,and head out to join the "orange hoard" of gun hunters. I do not have a problem sharing the woods with ANYONE.....We are ALL "hunters" afterall. Many years ago I gave up bowhunting. I just couldn't get used to the compund bows.I gun hunted for years and I was very happy doing it. Yes,it was "easier" but I passed up alot of deer for a number of personal reasons. At no point did I find gun hunting "unsatisfying". When I got back into bowhunting in 1999 I wanted to go back to the way I bowhunted in the days of my youth,with an old recurve bow and cedar arrows. As for "tradtional" bowhunting being "harder".....I know a few traditional bowhunters that fill thier tags as easily as stepping out the back door. I do not need special seasons or special regulations to "reward" me for using traditional equipment. I do what I do.....Because I WANT to....

What if the "founding fathers" of bowhunting, Pope,Young,Hill,Bear.....didn't just "do it" because they "wanted to".

[HNTN4ELK]

If a traditional only season were proposed, when and where would it take place without displacing any other hunters? Which group of hunters do you want to say to "From now on, you can't hunt here with your weapon of choice, it is now a trad only area" That will really go over well, it will garner a lot of support from all the other hunters, compound, firearms, etc, don't you think?---NOT!

Starting any earlier would not be wise for a number of reasons, amoung them heat and the potential for meat loss. Later and you run into winter or even calving or fawning time.

As I have said in Montana you may hunt with your trad gear from the beginning of archery season in mid August to mid January right on through the general firearms season if that is your choice. And with some types of licenses even into March. Yes, you must wear orange when a firearms season is on, so?

I heard someone say years ago something that comes to mind with this discussion:

You can put shoes on a chicken, but is there a compelling reason to do so?

I cannot see any reason to even venture down this road in my state.

Gary Carvajal