Special Season/Special Rules for Traditional bow

[Scott J. Williams]

Woodchucker,
      I take no offense, however you miss the point.  Why do you choose to hunt with traditional gear. Most of us do so because it provides the greatest satisfaction, and is the way it was when the first season was granted.  

      I was speaking, if you read what I said as opposed to what you think I said, of those who do not hunt, who have no knowledge of hunting. These people need an explaination.  Woodchucker they also have your hunting future in their hands, if you don't thinks so ask the people in California.

       HNTN4Elk, the place they put most of these seasons are at the begining or end.  Further more, more and more states provide these in the form of new areas opened to traditional bowhunters, as opposed to seasons.  You will have greater access to places where all hunters were banded, due to a total mistaken idea that if there is hunting going on, there must be guns going off.

        I will tell you this Mr. Chucker, that it is not about rewards for, it is a leveling of the playing field. I bowhunter year around, I have shared camps with gun hunters, and currently share a lease with compound bow hunters, but that is not the way I want to have to do it all the time.

 Look beyond yourself, not everybody sees things the way you do, or hunt the way you do.  Make no mistake, I am not trying to change your mind, or gain your support on this issue. I am not running for office, and it will put not one penney more in my pocket.  I am stating my mind, and by the emails I have received, a lot of people are saying the same thing that I am. I am 52 years old, I have hunted with a bow for forty years.  I was there before the compound, I remember how tough it was then, and if you are not careful we could lose what we have gained.

     You speak of Fred Bear, whom I had the pleasure of meeting, and POPE and YOUNG, hunting because they wanted.  This is something that a fair number of traditional bowhunters would like to see.  I say again, why do so many feel so threatened by it, what is the real deal.  

     You clearly are happy with your situation, then keep on keepin on!  I choose a different path, you are welcome to go anyway you wish, but don't attempt to stop me.    

Nuff Said.

[Molson]

Alas, all states are not created equal.  Even in Ohio, where we have plenty of deer and four months to bowhunt them, there are hidden opportunities.  We have several special hunts that are drawn on properties that are not normally open to hunting.  Some are gun only, some are bow only.  It would hurt nothing to add traditional hunts to the draw in some locations.  Promote it right, and you create some positive press among the hunting community for traditional bowhunting.

Of course, that wouldn't work if you are of the opinion that EVERYTHING a traditional hunter does to promote our sport does NOTHING but make us "elite" and tick someone off.

As for people who would look to expand their opportunity with equipment they are unfamiliar with.... Isn't that an ethical issue?  Isn't anything anyone wants to do in this sport ok as long as it's legal?  Who are we to judge? Right?  Hardly.  Vermonster's muzzleloader model is exactly the reason we need to maintain an ideology (Thanks Krebs!) and identity that we aggressively protect.

[vermonster13]

I agree with you Molson, but I also have an inside track to the folks who started this line of thought. Some of them have even been published to the major Trad magazine.

What happens when the Compound guys say hey, the Traditional guys have their own seasons, why do they need to be able to hunt in ours? Divisions are created when we start subdividing seasons and the bigger voice is going to win out in the end.

As things lie right now I can hunt all six weeks of the hunting seasons in VT with my bow. Rifle only guys only get two weeks, muzzleloader can hunt three of them.

Nothing wrong with making property you own or lease Traditional only if you like. it's when we start limiting the use of public land when the trouble starts brewing.

[Molson]

Vermonster,

I would hope the other 2,970,000 bow hunters of the country would not look at it as some kind of threat, but as another bowhunting opportunity.

A traditional season, in and of itself, could easily, and for the same reasons it appeals to traditionalists, be another outdoor option for any bow or gun hunter to choose from.

If it really is as you say, that something like this would only create division, then division is a problem that already exists, and we had very little to do with its creation.

I do understand your point, I just don't know why we view ourselves so negatively.

[et]

I have to say that I do not think that this reasoning came from a few folks that have access to publishing their ideas. Many who pay no attention to the internet, magazines have had this discussion for years. The majority of the folks I associate with are amused with the way I will "waste' my time on even visiting a web site. The folks that have published these ideas are simply (yes my assumption) using their position to voice what many have discussed over the years. Nothing new or radical as far as the thinking among many of the silent hunters out there.
I am considering the "radical“ idea that it isn't the hunting populace that will decide our future but the non hunters. We as hunters have not,IMO, done a very good job in "policing" our own ranks. Frequently I will see folks reminiscing about how Fred Bear and company used to be on The American Sportsman and lament how our society has gone Disney. Is it that America has gone Disney or perhaps the average American hunter no longer inspires any sense of adventure that the non hunting public can relate to? Most non hunters I interact with value and have a defined sense of fair chase; frequently miss informed from a hunting perspective but never the less they do accept that hunting has a role in our society.

Is there not room to use this with out degenerating other hunting methods? Just as we recruit compound shooters into our ranks with patience and modeling couldn't the Trad community be used as an example to the non hunting to rekindle the sense of adventure and Fair Chase that most non hunters respect?
( I am not saying that other methods are not Fair chase, just coming from the non hunter perspective)
Why not be a bridge to the masses so that they can start to understand or at least be open to the idea of hunting again? Where as hunters do we show the public a different face from the "Wack'm and Stack'm" TV shows?
The last question can be construed to be "elitist" but  can behavior that will (hopefully garner the respect of the majority) allow the person with out wealth continued access to hunting be elitist?
Yes, I have asked more questions then answered but I do fear for the future of our hunting heritage (regardless of weapon) and believe that there are other strategies that need to be developed in order to preserve and enhance our heritage. Discussions such as this are vital.

et

[grizzlyxx]

I say no to a special season.  I hunt in Louisiana where there is tons of hunting pressure and I hunt public strictly with longbow only.  NOT because I'm special or elite but because I choose to.  It's not a handicap that I use traditional equipment but a choice.  The idea of a "special season" serves the purpose of only one special interest group.  We are all hunters and love the outdoors and should stick together.

[vermonster13]

Ok here are some numbers for you. In 2004 you had 14,000 licensed bow hunters in Idaho and you managed to kill a total of 500 deer out of the 18,500 killed in total. Muzzleloader hunters killed 400. I don't see all that much of an impact being made by any archery hunters in Idaho and certainly not enough for a stand alone Traditional season.

Texas had 70,900 licensed bowhunters and they managed to kill 13,008 deer out of the 433,387 taken. Not much impact there either.

[tomh]

Did Idaho have the Sportsmans package  license in '04? google is not working so i could not check.
If so, a lot of guys buy that because you get deer, elk, turkey, bear, lion tags, plus archery and muzzle loader permits and a couple other things.

 So those numbers could be skewed by guys that got the package deal for the tags and never hunted with a bow or smokepole.
 
I know a few guys that buy it and don't own a bow or muzzle loader.

Not trying to be argumentative, just stats don't tell the whole story.

[vermonster13]

I agree, one of the reasons I posted the actual numbers though. When folks quote percentages, they don't mean much without the base numbers. The kill totals show that the compound really isn't a threat to unbalancing the herd though in either state. Firearms are the primary harvesting weapon in both states.

[et]

Vermonster,
I do have an unspoken agenda in this discussion. I have started(last 2 years) to write brief essays to my now 8 year old son on what hunting was like in the late 90's and this decade. What the issues were and my experience's and thoughts while in the field. I remember my father and friends returning from high country mule deer hunts, over hearing their stories while us kids sat fondling empty 30-30 casings. His later attempts to fill his elk tag with a '52 grizzly. The changes have been pretty phenomenal since I was his age, regarding opportunity to hunt and the general populaces perception of hunting.

We are basically 100 years into this "sport hunting" experience much has changed and fortunately the love of the hunt has remained. What are the next hundred years going to bring? Will we be able to keep this gift alive and what do we need to do to ensure that our children will be able to roam the land with weapon in hand?

The changes I have seen in my life give me pause as to whether hunters current "big tent" approach will be effective in the near future.

The deer harvest numbers surprised me and I will keep them handy, thanks. "Trophy" bull elk are where we come under fire from the gun hunter here in ID.
Having a trad season would be nice, IMO, but as we discuss this further it does fall down a bit on my list of priorities when compared to the challenges facing us.

et

[Jeremy]

Vman, do you have the most recent statistics for average shot (and kill) distance for bows?  Last real stat I saw was 4 yrs ago (I think) and was still around 17yrds.  That's within the reachable effective range for most stickbow shooters.  My informal poll of the successful bowhunters out here over the last two seasons gives the average around 13yrds.  So one of the given reasons for the advantage of the c-pound (the ability to 'reach out and touch' something) doesn't really seem to come into play.  That 90% let-off and the ability to hold it for ages though...  

I can hunt from mid Sept through the end of Jan with my bow.  Extend the season earlier than that and you'll raise fawn mortality drastically (it'd make it so easy to call in does with a fawn bleat though   )  In general, I don't see where a Trad only season would be a good idea for many of the reasons others have stated.  

Scott, I know many states are opening lands up as bow-only (mine included), but are there really states opening lands up to trad-only??  I wouldn't have thought that.

Last season better than 95% of my hunting was with my longbow, the rest was going for pheasants with a group every other weekend.

[vermonster13]

Part of the problem is to much Hunting Show exposure. The big compound manufacturers make all these claims and the shows state shots at very long distances of course in most every shot is a "great hit" regardless what the camera says and there always seems to be copious editing. In the west shot ranges do tend to be longer, but that being said I know more than a few Traditional Hunters who have killed game at some pretty long distances and are very good at doing so. Regardless the weapon you choose you still need to practice and with any bow once you get past 30 yards things need to be darn near perfect to be successful.

[Molson]

I took Vermonster up on his offer and spoke with him on the phone.  I had a pretty good idea as to what his concerns would be and they were as I thought.  They are the same concerns that I have about the issue. They are not only valid, but true, in most cases. Unfortunately, He is correct to say many of these are better left to phone or campfire conversation.

Having said that, I cannot say that the "idea" of a traditional only hunt is a bad one.  I certainly would take advantage of it if it existed.  That does not mean that the "idea" of a traditional only season is a good one either.  There are real problems with real consequences that need addressed.

What I can say is that the topic is worthy of discussion. It brings to light problems that currently exist among the hunting ranks.  A simple, "no way-next topic" does nothing toward solving or even identifying these issues.

[laddy]

In Iowa for two weeks in October we get run over by the inline muzzleloader gang.  Some of these are the worst of the shotgun hunters.  We have had a number of close calls, such as taking 300 yard shots across fields 40 minutes after sundown.  I can't take a shot even 20 minutes after sundown most days, how they think they can see that far in the dark is frightening.  
   I don't really feel that the compound shooters have that much over us, but long range fire arms and bows do not mix.  I have never had a nonhunter get on me about my bows and arrows, but some of these inliners are obsessed about all the deer we wound.  I guess they need an excuse for not being over run by trophy deer.  I am all for archery only hunters, getting a break.  I've never been a fan of the two season option, the way I look at it if I hunt two seasons one with a gun the other with a bow, that makes me half a bowhunter.  
   I don't expect these options will ever happen in whitetail states again, although there does seem to be a lot of overcrowding on state land.  Maybe, throw the tree stands out and keep the muzzleloaders off state land for the early season, that would be a good compromise, but I still don't like splitting archery styles up.

[Brian Krebs]

I am not one to cower in a corner; hoping for mercy.

We do have a history; of the 'witchery of archery' - of learning about bowhunting from the very last 'wild native American'- Ishi.

We have a history of loving the out of doors; and all the creatures in it. Ishi picked up a rabbit once and put it down safely. We have that as our history.

We have Fred Bear; who presented bowhunting as an adventure; Howard Hill who presented shooting bows as an art form.
 
Bowhunters fought rifle hunters -to establish the first bowhunts. To now think that these old enemies will continue to be our friends; even if they comprise the majority of 'bowhunters' - but with compounds in their hands -- is I think : very short-sighted.

 I do not believe that if bowhunters are pressed by anti-hunters; and fish and game departments; that they will hesitate at all- to throw us to the wolves. We are not needed to keep a bow season alive; only those that are competent to shoot a target: at a given range are needed. Anyone else is just- the first to sacrifice.

 And I have seen even here on the Trad Gang - an effort to make 'proficiency' testing a reality.

 Look we do have a history; a proud history; grounded in the thoughts of the first conservationist- Aldo Leopold; and a great group of others that loved the out of doors; and the experience of being in it.

 Sorry; but rifle seasons are not about 'being in the out of doors'-for the majority. They are social activities that involve little effort for the masses of them. For decades the 'successful rifle hunter' shot his game the first ten minutes of light- on opening day; and spent therefore: less than an hour in the woods each year.

 Now planting food plots; and posting property; buying leases; building permanent blinds and purchasing the best rifle; scope; range finder; and trophy deer behind a fence: determines  the 'successful' rifle hunter.

 And bowhunter too. The faster the bow; the shorter the bow; the better the range finder; the broadhead that does not need sharpening; the pre-sighted bow and arrows set for up to 60 yards over the counter- the release mechanisms... its a move in a direction that 'traditional bowhunters' are not following at all.

 The claim that we are elitists- is much like someone throwing a cow pie at you... and you letting it stick.
 We need to wipe that one off - now.

I remember when anyone who thought that the second amendment was referring to 'the people owning guns' was a 'GUN NUT'. While the title was better suited for those: that thought we were past ever needing guns..

 I do not appose gun seasons. I do not appose bow seasons for compound bows; or seasons where any bow can be used. ( a cross-bow does not shoot arrows and is not a bow).

 I do object to standing behind the loudest compound shooter; and peeking around his cape: to see what is going to happen to bowhunting.

 I know there were those of us that taped sticks on our bows to use as sights; and yet I do not believe that makes us on the same path; and headed in the same direction as compound shooters; and it does not make us 'elite'.

 Howard Hill thought the longbow was best suited to hunting because it allowed the hunter to make moving shots. Now- on most television hunting shows; it is made plain and clear- that shooting a moving animal: is an ethical error.

 The arch was proudly taken out of archery; nocks are not needed; as now we have a magnet that fits onto the string; and locks the arrow shaft onto it for more accurate shooting.

 More accurate shooting.

 More accurate shooting.

 More accurate shooting.

Get it? That has become the goal. You can pay for buck of any size; you can buy a bow that replaces skill and devotion. Lighted sights; range finders- that even account for up and down angles. You know all the stuff out there.
 Its all about accuracy.

The further they head down that road; bow in a sling over their shoulder; the less likely they are to support those that cannot shoot a 2 inch group at 60 yards.

 That is us.

While we look at the Wensels; and fall into the romance of hunting with a traditional bow; and all the things of 'primal hunting' ... turn around.

 There is only a small crowd- following us.

The other bowhunters are busy planting crops that augment their shooting blinds; putting out feeders; waiting for the chance to use their range finder; and draw back their bows; and 'squeeze the trigger' on a big buck.

 I think it is an error- to hide under a big tent; when the tent is not yours; and when the tent stays the same size- but the numbers in it: go up.

 I think it is better for us to say who we are; and why we do what we do NOW than to say it as we are dragged kicking and screaming from the woods; because our equipment is crude and not capable of making 80 yard shots with any accuracy- like 'RESPONSIBLE BOWHUNTERS'.

 These people are elitists not us.

If there is a biological reason to allow a traditional bowhunt; and the addition of the hunt does not take away opportunity from other groups - then what is the logic in not allowing it?

[Al Dente]

I am personally against such a season.  Where do we draw the line.  If we, trad bow hunters, want to be considered as a "special interest" group of hunters, then everyone who hunts with a specific implement (not weapon) will want their own slice of the pie.  Rifle, shotgun, pistol, muzzle rifle, muzzle pistol, crossbow, spear, atlatl, compound, etc... And then, add in the seasons, small game, big game, upland bird, turkey, bear, deer, predator.  It will be a mess, and one that I want no part of.

There should be archery season and firearms season.  Enough with all of these divisions.

[laddy]

I agree with Brian.  I have three tents, two are campfire tents and one is a top of the line beckell wall tent.  They are for canoeists and longbow shooters.  Even when we are pheasant hunting they are for longbow shooters, who hunt birds and everything else with longbows.  It is my privilege to be appropriately prejudiced in my own tent.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

My dad was a NRA rifle instructor. I was reared as a rifleman, and shot in my first match at age 5. By age 13 I had achieved the Distinguished rating - the level above expert - and was ranked #13 nationally. For years I conducted terminal ballistics studies for Barnes bullets, and was on their technical advisory staff. For over a decade, I built custom metalic silhouette rifles. I love firearm. When I need to, or must, make a kill, I'll use a rifle. For the practiced shot, they offer near certainty. So why do I prefer to bowhunt, and with traditional bows?

Next year marks 50 years since my first big game bow kill, a whitetail. From that moment onwards I knew the difference between hunting and merely killing. I ENJOY hunting; I love the time afield, and the challange of pitting my personal hunting skills against the animal. I LIKE having to get VERY CLOSE before being certain of my ability to make my shot count.

I bowhunt with traditional bows because I WANT TO. I don't particularly care what the others I'm hunting with are using. That's a personal choice on their part. A great many of my friends (and sometimes hunting companions) are rifle hunters, handgun hunters, muzzle loader hunters and compound bow shooters. Some even use crossbows. I don't mind sharing my hunting camp with any of them; or sharing the woods with any other real hunters - no matter what they are using to hunt with. I belive, perhaps somewhat concetedly, that my traditional bowhunting ethics has even had a beneficial influence on a few of those, now old and grizzled, hunting companions of mine.

What I don't like are those individuals who are out there ONLY to kill; or who become angry when the animal the do take fails to make 'the book'.. Now, if we can get a special season that's limited to only those who truly like to HUNT - that I'm all for.

All the special seasons in the world won't solve the problem of inconsiderate, assanine acting slobs - those who care nothing about what hunting is really about - and those folks can be found among the ranks of any 'equipment group'. I'm proud to say that I've seen fewer of those among the ranks of traditional bowhunters than among any other ... but there are some there too.

If you bowhunt for the love of hunting, just being able to get out there and do it is reward enough, and  it doesn't matter what the next guy is using ... as long as he hunts responsibly and is there for the right reasons. There are enough slob-hunters out there, and more than enough anti-hunters in this world. I believe it's critical for all those who truly like to hunt to be united if we, and the sport we love, are to long survive in this world that has become publically corrupted by politically-correntness.

I'd rather see efforts to promote and expand the knowledge and understanding of our hunting ethics and heritage than to have a single traditional-only season. Besides, the years are taking their toll, and I'm rapidly running out of my supply of close bowhunting friends - but I do still have a few who hunt with other weapons. I'd hate to lose the option of hunting with their company, simply because they choose to hunt with a different weapon than I.

Ed

[Orion]

Interesting discussion throughout.  As several have already noted, the biggest obstacles to a separate season appear to be 1) in most states, it would be difficult to come up with a new season that didn't impinge on some other, and 2) there aren't enough trad follks to push through such changes.  Game scarcity in some areas in the future might be serious enough to generate regulations to limit the type of weapon used, though that can be accomplished just as easily through a limited draw process.

I find it amusing that some folks continuye to  rile against crossbows while apparently acquiesing to compounds.  Twenty years ago, crossbows were probably more effective, efficient, accurate,etc., than compounds.  That doesn't appear to be the case any longer.  About the only difference I see between them is that the compound is held vertically, the crossbow horizontally.  With 80 percent let off, the fact that a compound has to be drawn "by hand" really doesn't amount to a hill of beans.  How's that for opening another can of worms.

[Brian Krebs]

Dr Ashby:
 Thank you for your input on this. I understand what your saying; and I agree.. except for the crossbow deal- I see crossbows as an invention to kill other people; not for hunting. I see no romance in using a tool for hunting: that was designed for that sole purpose.

 One thing you ( Dr Ashby) mentioned that I find central to the argument of why we NEED a traditional season is this:
"Next year marks 50 years since my first big game bow kill, a whitetail. From that moment onwards I knew the difference between hunting and merely killing. I ENJOY hunting; I love the time afield, and the challange of pitting my personal hunting skills against the animal. I LIKE having to get VERY CLOSE before being certain of my ability to make my shot count."

 While this is true of great hunters whatever the weapon- having time afield is not as integral to rifle hunting; or shotgun/muzzleloader and compound  bow seasons: as it is to traditional bow and even perhaps traditional muzzleloader seasons.

 Traditional hunting is going out and matching wits with animals; and laying in wait; and tracking and stalking: and all that takes time afield.

 We all know that where the rifle hunt ends; the bowhunt begins. If a rifle hunter sees his prey at distances up to 900 yards; he has a chance. At 75 yards its pretty much a done deal. Our shooting limits us to -pretty much- under 50 yards: and averages probably less than half that.

 So- we need to get closer; we need a clearer shot; we need more knowledge of the wind; the woods and the animals- to get in close for the shot.

 That takes time. Not only to get the chance for a shot; but to become part of the out of doors- to reach the level it takes- to be quiet as we walk; and observe.

 Its this precious time afield- that I am trying to protect; and the added challenge of the traditional bow.. demands that. So I see keeping the season lengths we have: as really important.
 
 Many people enjoy shooting compounds - or cam bows or whatever they are called now. That is just fine. I have no objection to it. I hunt with people that shoot compounds; and too with rifles; and I do not question their honor or ethics; or their abilities - or their methods.

 I just do not want the added numbers of people hunting in the bow season effectively :to effect the bow season lengths.

 Aldo Leopold in one of his books said that bowhunting should never reach a point- where it impacts game numbers- and becomes a 'game management tool'.

 I saw that as saying that we should have lower numbers; and that we should be doing it for the fun of it; and for the time it requires us to spend in the out of doors- to observe and to appreciate it.... or become part of game management. And thus: subject to changes that would not be in our interest.

 An argument for having a separation of 'traditional bowhunting' and 'compound bowhunting' if ~only in legal definition~  is that- if that changes- there should be no need for traditional bowhunters to be effected.

Because we are lower in numbers- and with a separation of definition- we don't have to be lumped with the bowhunters that ~will~ lose time and opportunity.

 I can come up with lots of good arguments for rifle hunting; and bow seasons; but I also think there is a good reason: for having a defined traditional classification; and seasons.