Special Season/Special Rules for Traditional bow

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

There's one point for the compounds and crossbows that I think needs to be considered. My good friend, and long time hunting partner, Jim Scarborough died in October. For most of his last years, his body was racked with severe rheumatoid arthritis. Jim bowhunted with a longbow for many, many years, then had to move to compound, because he couldn't draw and hold any of his longbows. He eventually reached the point that he was hunting with a kid's version of a Parker compound. Then, even at it's lowest poundage setting, he could no longer break even that light-draw compound over. At that point he chose to move to a crossbow, rather than give up being able to enjoy the early season fall days afield. Did using it change his hunting methods or ethics - or his rather spotty bowhunting success rate? Not in the slighest. However, it did give him two last years of being able to venture to the woods to hunt with me and his other hunting friends. I treasure that little bit of extra time it gave us together, regardless of what equipment he had to use.

I hope the day never comes that I have to do the same, but I like knowing that there are alternatives to having to give up venturing forth with my friends, should my own physical condition someday dictate that I can no long use my trad bows.

Ed

[Scott J. Williams]

Dr. Ashby,
     I agree with you totally. I never meant that the option would be elimiated.  I was just speaking of a season dedicated to the way it all started, I have seen Martial Art go through the same process as bowhunting.  The new guys believed that they had a better way, so the old way was pushed aside in the interest of being more inclusive.  It resulted in a watered down version, most often a shadow of what it was, not providing the benefits that it once did. Now, there are only a few of us that still can teach the old forms, and old techniques.  To fail to embrace the root, the tree will die.

      It was never an attack on anyone's method, but a forum to acknowledge that there is a major difference between the "Modern Bowhunting tools" and the more "Traditional", failure to recognize that difference is foolish, and irresponsible in my estimation. To continue to hold us to the same standard, in regard to ease of mastery, or success rates is where my focus lay.

       Those of us who hunt with the longbow, recurve, selfbow, flatbow, only are a rare breed indeed.  Sometimes in order to increase your numbers you must get away from the crowd to allow others to see your point of view.  My Master might say, "raising your voice  in the storm, will yield less fruit than a calm voice in the still of the dawn".

[vermonster13]

Another way to look at it is those who find this path are more likely meant for it than those shown it. A separate Traditional Season will bring in more who will use the equipment most likely for just that season and will they be folks who will truly carry on the tradition or more of those who will seek to change it as is already happening? Muzzleloader seasons sold lots of muzzleloaders to lots of folk for the opportunity at an extra season, but how may of those are actual old style equipment users and do they hunt with them during firearm season too or just during the extra season?

There are better ways to grow the sport IMO.

[woodchucker]

Thank You David!!!!! Very well said!!!!!

As I have stated before.....

"special" seasons just mean more people TRYING to be "special"

Can't we "hunters" all just get along?????

I am a HUNTER. That's where it starts.....and where it ENDS. I do 100% of my hunting with traditional equipment.I do probly 90% of my hunting with my stickbow,but the other 10% is usualy done with one of my many guns that have been in my family and will be passed down to my grandchildren (and hopefully thier grandchildren) for years to come. and THAT My Friends is what "tradition" is all about!!!!!

Have we become that "wrapped up" in "traditional bowhunting" that we have lost the true meaning of TRADITION?????   :(

I'm sorry but I have said before.....I do what I do.....because I WANT TO!!!!!

Just like a black powder hunter that uses a flintlock.....He is a teacher of the past,and a passer of the torch.....

I think we would be better off if we would concentrate on passing on our "tradition" to others rather than using it to separate us from them.

[Brian Krebs]

Here in Idaho; there are hunts for traditional muzzleloaders only.

 There are two types of elk tags for this zone.

 One allows for hunting with 'any weapon' from August first through the end of September: for cow elk around certain crops. It runs right through at the same time as the regular bow season- which is August 30th through September 30th.

 That means you can be calling elk; and have rifle hunters hunting elk right when and where: you are. I think this is idiotic and irresponsible. I have been hunting and had cow elk approach- to have bullets zip by me.

 The same tag - the 'A tag' is needed to rifle hunt then; and hunt with a bow only during that season; and then you can hunt with traditional muzzleloader in November; and then hunt elk again in one unit for all of December.

 Its kind of confusing; but the zone I have an elk tag for- allows for a December hunt in one unit in December.

There is a controlled hunt for cow elk with a rifle in  another unit in this zone: during the first ten days of December.

 I have to drive through elk in my driveway; where I can hunt elk in September; to get to a unit 400 yards away - but with access limited to a minimum 15 mile drive from here- where I can hunt elk.

 The biologists asked for a bowhunt in December- all of December for the unit I hunt in; and the law makers: made it a ten day rifle hunt.

  That still leaves though -the rest of December for a traditional bow season; that the biologists say is not only OK but needed; as the elk from Montana migrate in and winter here; competing with Idaho elk.

  Thing is there are ways of implementing a traditional bowhunt that does not interfere with anyone elses hunt; and only subtracts from others  time afield if the hunt is added on.

  With a rifle hunt for cow elk from Aug first through the end of September; and a controlled tag hunt for the first week of December; the rifle hunters have nothing to complain about.

 A traditional bow only season could be implemented- right here where I am: with biological support.

 But; the stopping block is the state bow organization here: that does not want traditional bowhunters to have opportunities they cannot take advantage of.

 Vermonster- I am already seeing the effect of non-traditional bowhunters: and their effect on  season limitations.

  During the traditional muzzleloader hunt I did not see one guy out hunting. There probably were a few; but people did not flock out there- to take advantage of the hunt.
 
 I cannot see them running out and buying traditional bows to hunt in the same place during a traditional bow season.
  If they do; they might just like it; and that is fine by me.

 There are ways of implementing traditional bow hunts; but I can tell you its the big gang of compound hunters; and the rifle hunters: that are stopping it from happening---not common sense.

 They are already proving their loyalties; and in my opinion if we do not move now; there ideas about traditional bows - are NOT going to help traditional bowhunting in the future.

 I have zero reason to believe otherwise.

[Dale Sharp]

I don’t post much; ran out of gas a few years ago but I still lurk from time to time. Yet, this thread is important and this discussion should be fueled. For the record I only hunt small and big game animals with traditional bows so all of my opinions about hunting are tainted by that fact; you might want some nose plugs…

I like increased restrictions on equipment. Here in Washington State we don’t have unlimited wildlife resources (like the whitetailed deer out east) and so hunters have to "choose their weapon" for deer or elk and they cannot hunt outside that selection. In other words when I buy an archery deer tag I can only hunt the archery deer seasons; I cannot also hunt the muzzleloader or the rifle seasons for deer. So no one can be a "two season" hunter for a particular species. I like this fact because here we have too many people hunting too few animals. However I could, if I wanted, buy an archery deer tag but then a rifle elk tag. If it were up to me I would change this and make it even more restrictive so that instead we would have to buy an annual archery hunting LICENSE so that we would have to hunt all big game species in a given year with the same equipment; the reason being that I think archery hunting demands total commitment to the endeavor.

Where game is abundant and the resource can withstand two-season hunting, I am all for that. You who live out east have it good in that regard; I grew up in a state that allowed a person to hunt both the archery and the rifle seasons so I remember how nice it was to be able to hunt with friends or family who weren’t able to hunt with traditional archery. But as I stated above, traditional archery is my only big and small game hunting interest. [I confess that last year for the first time in nearly 30 years I shot-gunned for ducks, because my neighbor kept harping on me to accompany him; it was a noisy dang venture but I think I’ll do it again this year because he’s invited me again; I don't want to be rude.]

I’d support traditional only areas (for all the good reasons outlined by others in this thread) as well as additional opportunities that expand the season timelines so long as no one else’s time in the woods is taken away on account of it. I would restrict the dickens out of it; wood shafts, fixed blades, etc. so as to make it truly reminiscent of the era when bow seasons were first established; make it demanding and hard. This would not appeal to everyone and it wouldn’t be intended to (just like the first bow seasons!); but I think it should be available to those who are willing (read that again; WILLING) to give up all other forms of hunting and all gadgetry to try and do it the way it was intended to be done. This point was made in the initial post that started this thread but has been painted over by concerns of non-committed individuals taking “advantage” of the opportunity; it should be traditional-only, all year, all seasons. Only the dyed-in-the-wool archery hunters are going to be purchasing a license/tag that restricts them to such a narrow focus.

While I grow older eager for this to happen, I hope there will come a time when there is a distinction in success reporting so that the game departments have a record of what type of so-called “archery” weaponry kills the most game. Because I agree with others who believe that it is only a matter of time before the increased efficiency made possible by technological advances will threaten to chip away at the amount of time we get to spend in the field. And when that day comes we’d better darn well have some data to support the fact that high-tech bowhunting is too effective to have suited Aldo Leopold. We’ll then need to be able to prove that the guardians of the old methods still have an insignificant impact on the game resources. And if that then leaves us outside the big tent, so be it; I think we’ve all along sort of been stuck in the vestibule anyway. As for the non-hunting public’s perception of archery hunting, I know that my non-hunting associates view what I do as more worthy of admiration and support than what they see broadcast on the hunting-porn TV stations.

And what will I do when I’m too feeble to draw back? I’ve never used a compound; they don’t interest me. Yes, I have friends and family who have and I love those people in spite of it. I haven’t shot my deer rifle since leaving the Midwest nearly 30 years ago; may never again. I think crossbows are a plight on archery seasons. So when I can no longer pull a hunting weight bow, I will instead pick up a camera (yes, a manual camera) and with it I’ll accompany my younger comrades into the woods and continue my quest to “try and get closer”.

Dale Sharp

[Brian Krebs]

Well said Dale.  

[Scott J. Williams]

Dale,

    Thanks so much, you get it.  As for the person who thinks that special seasons are just for people trying to be special, that is very cute, but a lot of Bull.  

     If we are going to have discussion about this, let's leave all the petty bias crap out of it.  If it were not for specail seasons, he would not be able to hunt with his TRADITIONAL BOW NOW!   Just when I think I have heard it all, somebody steps up and says something really uncalled for.

     Kuddos to you Mr. Sharp, you stated it very well.  You are the type of person who is a credit to this fine sport that some, by evidence of this thread, are taking so lightly.

[woodchucker]

WOW!!!!! Talk about "BIAS"!!!!!

I think you really need to take a step back and look at what you posted!!!!!

It is VERY clear to see you are VERY biased about compound/gun hunters!!!!!

and your comment "If it were not for special seasons,he would not be able to hunt with his TRADITIONAL BOW NOW!" I think not my friend!!!!! I have NO PROBLEM doning a Blaze Orange jacket and sharing the woods with gun hunters.....I've been doing it for years!!!!!

This is the way I'm starting to see this.....

1) Elk

2)Special Seasons

3) Special Areas

4) NO Hunting Pressure!!!!!

i.e. You want a "special" traditional only seasons,in "special" traditional only areas,so that you can have all of the ELK to yourself with very little or no hunting pressure!!!!!

I oppoligize for offending anyone,I was trying to be nice.....But you took the first swat!!!!!

[vermonster13]

If Fred Bear had been successful with a compound (yes he did try but couldn't shoot one worth a darn) I wonder what folks would be saying now?

[Molson]

Woodchuck I don't see them saying that.  From what I hear about hunting in the west, it's completely different than hunting here in the east.  How is anyone going to have all the elk to themselves?  You'd have to be completely ignorant to even think such a thing was possible.  No doubt some folks are ignorant, but I'm inclined to think the majority of folks who would want a Trad Season would want one for the right reasons.  Again, why do some have such a negative view of ourselves?

We in Ohio are all about reduction.  I can take 6 deer in my county, seven in the whole state. Our bow kill is near our gun kill.  The primary reason for that is the crossbow.

As long as I've been hunting, crossbows have been permitted in the archery season.  The vast majority of these folks are not bowhunters, don't act like bowhunters, and could care less about bowhunting.  Most are downright greedy, unethical, and have no concern for the game they hunt let alone the laws.

Most, but not all.  There are some very good guys who hunt with a crossbow. What irks me about them is the statement, "I'd like to hunt with a bow like that but I don't have the time." Same statement my compound hunting friends make.  To a bowhunter, bowhunting should be worth the time and that shouldn't matter regardless of the type of bow you use.

They are free to make that statement because they are free to make equipment choices that require a minimum amount of effort. Truth is, they're just lazy.

In my situation, equipment currently has no effect on my hunting opportunities.  Land development is a much larger threat.  However, there may well come a day when it does have a significant effect on my hunting.  Should that time come, there will be far to many people like them and far to few people like me to do anything about it. Where will I be in standing the "Big Tent" then????

[vermonster13]

The lazy ones will be the first to drop out of hunting when we reach that point anyways so why worry about them. What concerns me is having groups of folks with so many different goals and looking out for just their piece of the pie while the other side is focused on the whole thing.

There is no ignorance in Woodchucker's statement. It is stated in several responses that folks want the woods to just traditional hunters for various reasons and that means far less competition for the available animals at that time. Everyone would like to hunt with less pressure and more available animals, to say otherwise is questionable.

Seems to be a lot of broadstroke painting of folks who choose another means of hunting. Hate to tell you folks but there are just a high of a percentage of the bad stuff in our camp as in any of their's, we are just so fewer in number that it isn't as noticeable.

[rnharris]

I believe as a whole we are losing hunters every year.In ga by the thousands that means less money from licsenses less money to spend on resources the first thing that get's cut is hunting outdoor money for conservation officers
less money to spend on purchasing land for hunting and outdoor activities.What we as hunters need to do do is focus on young people
to bring them into the outdoors take a kid hunting i believe if we don't do this we won't have a voice in the future to protect our way of life.

I am a hunter first and formost and happen to pursue game with a bow.But i know some fine people who hunt with guns and compounds i believe we need to focus on conserving hunting
any way we can.Several years ago they instituted crossbows in ga. made me mad at first but then i realized they still have to get close to game to take them cleanly and most are as loud as a 22 rifle.But they are buying licenses and spending money on hunting and that's a good thing let's focus on perserving our sport from those who would take it away!

[Molson]

Just to clarify, I meant those who think they could have it all to themselves are ignorant as are those who would suggest such an idea for reasons other than to promote traditional bowhunting and opportunities.

I have to question the "Big Tent" theory in that it seems to only work one way.  There seems to be little room to promote Traditional Bowhunting for fear of ticking off someone else and what they might do about it.  That just doesn't seem very "Big Tentish" to me.

Fact is, those of us to whom hunting is more than just about the dollars, scores, and kills are getting fewer and fewer.  New modern archers know nothing of the heritage of our sport and could give a wit to learn about it.  Nothing in the mainstream exists to even suggest there ever was a past.  What "Big Tent"?  Big archery shoved us out quite some time ago.

You want to make a difference?  Start convincing big business the past is important.  That hunting ethics and our heritage matter.  Make these companies and so called pro shops start promoting honor, values, and integrity again...You know, the things you can't purchase.

As for these morons in our sport...get rid of them.  They don't belong.  I'm pretty sick of reading about some idiot who hasn't even shot a big game animal getting himself a bow and thinking he can voice his "professional" opinion about what we should and shouldn't do.  You want to earn it, earn it.  My way can't be bought. I had to work for it and I'm not going to just hand it over to the first pansy who feels left out.

Whew....That's my rant for today.

**Disclaimer**

For the record, I agree with the "Big Tent" theory in principle.  I know several gun, compound, and crossbow hunters to whom our hunting heritage is important.  It is my belief that the "Big Tent" will remain "without a pole" until the high dollar heros realize hunting has become an "emotional" issue and is better served by promoting values, heritage,and traditions instead of their bottom line.  These are the things that attract new hunters... not better, faster, stronger.  If we can do that, then our tent will have some walls.

[et]

"i.e. You want a "special" traditional only seasons,in "special" traditional only areas,so that you can have all of the ELK to yourself with very little or no hunting pressure!!!!!"


No, Chuck we just want to preserve our time a field by committing to one method of hunting. Our hunting opportunities are being impacted by other user groups. Rather then telling them to stop we are willing to limit our selves to preserve what’s left. As it has been stated before we have a limited game supply. Yes, right now we can hunt during the rifle season with a bow, no problem doing so if one chooses. More areas are going to draw only which limits ones ability to even hunt an area. With more and more habitat loss and increasing pressure on game animals out west I hate to speculate what hunting for my son will be like. It sure would be nice if he can pick up a bow and hunt for a month, rather then attempting to draw a tag now and then or being forced to hunt on leased land with expensive land owner tags. What are the odds of a kid even going hunting in such a world?

I doubt that many hunt with a recurve because of Fred Bear, in fact Fred really isn't that great of a model in today’s bow hunting world (long shots, need for game on the ground to continue to promote his company, this has been hammered before).BUT he is an excellent model for folks who are willing to have an adventure while hunting, get out there and accept a challenge. He did a great job of promoting hunting in a manner that the general public respected, self reliant woodsman, heck he even seemed to show some respect for the animals he killed. The image Fred Bear conveyed harkened back to the sportsman that saved the game animals from extinction and were willing to set limits in order for them to thrive. One need not hunt with trad gear to be the hunter conservationist, and I haven’t heard anyone make that claim here.

[vermonster13]

It is implied many times as are many things. You aren't being limited to your time in the field anymore than any other hunter except the exceedingly rich. A traditional only season is a bandaid approach for a minority that does nothing to stem the greater problems all hunters are confronted with. Separating  will do no more to preserve traditional hunting for the next generation and will likely expose even fewer to it. If anything will only speed our demise. We need to be seen and a part of hunting period. Leading by example within the context of what exists and doing our best to introduce new folks to it and all hunters need to present an ethical image to the public. We are no better than those that choose a different weapon and those who say they aren't claiming we are aren't reading the same posts I am.

As far as the big tent, lot's like to drag it down, but how many are actually working to strengthen it? Takes much more effort to build than to tear down, but when you build you have something at the end.

Fred would have been just an excellent model with any weapon. The ethics are in the hunter not the weapon.

[rnharris]

It's gonna take all the resources we as the hunting community can muster to fight the onslaught that is coming that means big money
the anti's have very deep pockets they are after guns right now when they get those they will be after my black widow let's don't be distracted with the minor things like special seasons and the like.Look at Europe you can't even bowhunt over there in some places.

I agree 100% that it starts and ends with integrity in and out of the woods.

[Molson]

The onslaught has been here.  We do need the money and we need to stick together to fight the anti's.  It's true that you cannot let anyone fall to the side.

That is just not the real world though.  This conversation is one-sided.  I do not see any modern manufacturers promoting hunting today.  They promote their equipment as better, easier, faster, and so on.  They do not promote a history or an ethic, or for that matter, responsibility.

People walk into a store and buy a crossbow or muzzleloader or even a trad bow.  They walk out without any instruction whatsoever as to how to conduct themselves in the field with that equipment.  Who is the Big Tent?  These manufacturers are visible representitives of our sport and this is what they do???  Put TV shows on that show nothing of heritage, adventure, hardiness, or self-improvement??? Geez.....Compare a Fred Bear film to what we have today.  You tell me what's more attractive.

I wish the Big Tent was real, I really do. I want to see it work.  But when this is how everyone acts, they are nothing more than an empty sack waiting to take what you have for fill.

Where is Martin, Browning, Hoyt, PSE???  Easton...you out there??? Where are their sponsorship dollars to sites like this?

[vermonster13]

They aren't taken as sponsors. The site stays with traditional manufacturers only. Martin sponsors a site with over 80,000 members and does have a small trad forum. Some of these folks also helped in the WHA fight due to the pressure brought on by people here and compound hunters. These manufacturers also (some) do put money into our sport in school archery programs and such. But be honest they are businesses as were many of the folks considered Icons in Traditional today. Many of the hunting films and such were made to sell bows.

The big tent is best represented by the USSA and the NRA and they are out there doing things that need to be done.

This forum is Trad Gangs way of helping folks become informed. We need to educate ourselves if we hope to have a future and to educate the voting public.

[et]

"I agree 100% that it starts and ends with integrity in and out of the woods."

rnharris, I couldn't agree more. This discussions get's painful because in all likely hood everyone posting here agrees on most hunting issues and would be good hunting companions or at least enjoyable company on the 3d range. My problem with the Big Tent is that it seems to excuse behavior and has little incentive for people to exercise responsibility or integrity. It has been good as a reactionary tool when hunting is under attack. It doesn't seem very good at  proactively recruiting hunters or presenting hunters in a manner that the general public respects.

I would like to see more of an effort to promote the hunter/conservationist, our history that gives us validity in the public eye. The recent National Geographic article, IMO, is what needs to be constantly out there in the public.(minus the poacher=hunter foul up) Support for organizations such as BHA, Orion institute, DU, RMEF etc.

We focus on bringing our youth into the folds which is great but still not replacing the hunters lost. In my neck of the woods the greatest recruitment seems to be coming from of all places the late 20's early 30's male who has recreated in the wild for years, self described environmentalist and quite possibly a past anti hunter. Not the anti hunter who wants to ban hunting but a person who would never want to be identified with the bubbling gun toting folks who only go to the hills during the rifle season.  These folks are ripe for recruitment when the hunter/conservationist is presented to them. It takes a while for them to see past the bubblies and realize that they are a minority of hunters.

The Big Tent(at least my understanding of it) does little to attract such people and quite frequently is a determent, in my little corner of the world. Their motivation for hunting is frequently for the healthy meat, acceptance of their role in the natural world which includes death and after having observed nature for years wanting to participate in our predator/ prey relationship.

Many of those NOLS, Outward bound kids that frequently are the butt of jokes in the hunting community are actually coming into the hunters fold. The anything goes as long as it's legal dose not sit well with them, Fair Chase does. Big Tent theory creates, IMO, many "closet hunters" those who hunt but are quite about it because they don't want to get be part of a group that puts the act of killing above Fair Chase and sacrifices long term opportunity with short term rewards. Giving the "closet hunters" a voice and going back to our roots as hunters, is attractive to this generation of hunters.
I am looking forward to seeing where this discussion goes. I'm off to climb and ski with long haired, bearded, granola crunching, gun hunting Wyoming folks for the next few days.

et