Special Season/Special Rules for Traditional bow

[Molson]

You are right Vermonster.  USSA and NRA are fantastic at that.  They promote, educate, and protect.  Everyone should be a member and participate in these organizations, even if your participation can only consist of a donation.  

It just irritates me to no end that today's modern archery and pro shops do not promote the sport like they used to.  They've got to make money and we need dollars for support.  No doubt.  But they're lost on the education front.  What's most disappointing is that this is what sets the attitudes of todays modern archer and, to a point, trickles down to trad.

When I was young and first started bowhunting with a compound, I went three or four years without taking a deer.  Not for lack of opportunity, but because I did not want my bow season to end.  We only had a single deer tag in those days.  I wanted a deer on the last day of the season so I didn't lose any time afield.  It was all about the excitement of being out with a bow and what might happen. Real bowhunters, as opposed to those who hunt with a bow, know what I mean by this. Where is that attitude today?

The whole thing is rather frustrating.  I just hate to see something special, and I'm talking about all bowhunting, become so diluted and ordinary. Traditional archery at least tries to keep the "Bowhunting Spirit" alive.  I just wish the others would too.

Anyway...Now I'm depressed....Where's the whiskey...

[Brian Krebs]

Vermonster: I knew Fred Bear. I had dinner with him; he was the kind of guy that just fit into all groups of people; with a kind smile and gentle words.
 I am not sure of the contract obligations when he sold his business. But I can tell you what he said when he saw me with my bear takedown recurve. He said "that's the kind of bow I shoot". I had seen all kinds of pictures of him with a compound; and said; "I thought you used a compound."
He struck back swift and sure : he said " no- I don't!" " I am #%$- @)%# sorry I ever picked one of those &$#* things up!!".
 He told me he "had to pose" for those pictures.
I am sorry; but he DID live in a time when he COULD have hunted with a compound if he wanted too. He had every bow in the world available to him; and he hunted to his dying day with a traditional bow.
 Yep he did some things we might frown on now; but he was a great guy and a great representative of bowhunting. And he hated compounds !!!!!
  He was human. He did make some mistakes in judgement from time to time- like everyone else that is human. But he was a stellar human being; and a stellar bowhunter.
 
 He also once told me that "When they make bows that shoot an arrow faster than 300 feet per second- it will not be bowhunting anymore."

 We are there.

[vermonster13]

I don't think we really want to go into Fred or any of those who came before and made a living selling bows. Let's focus on the everyday folks who actually keep hunting alive today.

[Brian Krebs]

woodchucker:

I tired real hard to explain the specific situation I am in where I live. I can look right now out the window and see elk walking around. I cannot hunt them. I have a tag for this unit; but this zone is closed for elk hunting; yet across the river( the frozen 'river of no return' Salmon river) I can hunt.
 Its four arrow tosses away from where I am typing right now.
 So I quite literally have to drive down my driveway; shoo the elk out of my alfalfa for my pack animals; and drive 30 miles to have a chance to shoot an elk.
 The biologists say there is a good reason to have a bow season here.
 It is the opinions of rifle hunters and bowhunters that do not hunt with traditional bows: that are keeping a season from opening. Our representative fish and game commissioner is for it; and hunts with a traditional bow. He says its pure jealousy from other bowhunters.
 See: a person that gets a tag for another area for elk cannot come up here to hunt elk. Just the people with a tag for this unit.
 The majority of bowhunters do not hunt here. They are basing their decision solely on the idea that there would be a season that they could not hunt in; and that is that- period. Even though unless they had a tag for this unit... they could not hunt here anyway.
 Whew. I am not spewing out anger; just frustration      

As far as this:
This is the way I'm starting to see this.....

1) Elk---------- there are big bucks in rut right now too that I would love to hunt too.  

2)Special Seasons -- this is a state so full of special seasons that you need a lawyer to figure them out- one more would not break the camels back. We have traditional muzzleloader seasons; and cow only seasons; and bull only seasons; and short range weapons seasons; and any weapon seasons. Not asking for the moon here       The elk here on this side of the river are elk from Montana for the most part; and they are taking up wintering ground for the Idaho elk. The biologists from Montana and Idaho agree they need to be thinned out... why can I not do it?
  By the way the wolves follow the elk to my hay; and kill my livestock. I will be feeding elk all winter: while my tummy aches for elk meat.
     

[Scott J. Williams]

Chuck,
     I take no offense, nor do I take back anything I said.  You threw the first punch anyway with that comment about people thinking themselves special.

     ET, and a number of others have it right. I hunt with gun hunters too, not by choice, but because if I am going to hunt that is what I must do.

     I guess, by your statement, that you would be hunting with a bow during gun season if there were never any bow seasons?  I don't think you would.  In fact it was not Traditional Bowhunting when I started, it was Bow Hunting. B.C. Before compounds.  I don't give a darn if a person wants to hunt with a gun or a compound.  The Big Tent approach is only brought up when the majority of the people under it thinks the way they do.

     I will not sit here and say that the NRA, and others have not done well for hunters and firearms owners.  Having said that, they are not focused on the things that will make Traditional Bowhunting better, or preserve it. I am not sure why people are so quick to throw away tradition.

     P.S.E. sells a few traditional bows, but that is not their bread and butter, so to think that they are promoting Traditional Bowhunting would be foolish, in fact if it went south they would not care.

      Hear me well, the addition of a Traditional only season, as I stated(I started this thread so I know what the hell I said)is in no way a reduction in the other seasons.  It has in most places results in lands set aside for people wishing to take part in that type of hunt, while the general season is on going.  

     So why are you so against it, what gives you the right to tell  me how or in what way I should hunt?

     Fear not, you did not upset me or offend me. I am a 25 year vet of the Houston Police Department,  I have had people try to run over me, shoot me, and beat me to death.  I don't think our disagreement has much effect on me.

     You and I will agree to disagree, send me a private message and we can chew the fat further.

[laddy]

Two points:  I run into outward bound kids on canoe trips.  They do things the average fourwheel driving, powerboat driving outdoorsman could never get up the ambition or guts to do.  they would be a great addition to the traditional archery gang, they have appreciation for the wild and have moxxy.
  2. A traditional only season would bring criticism from gun hunters.  So what, are they a different species?  I have been criticized by gun hunters since I was seven years old, the year I shot my first rabbit.  Does their choice of weapon make them superior to me? Hardly.  The same arguments go on where those outward bound kids play up north. It's a canoe only wilderness, and for years the power boaters complain," it's not fair what about us?"  The answer is simple, if groups of inner city girls can survive and have fun in the Canadian wilderness for two weeks, so can they.  Learn how to take it and paddle a canoe like a girl.  Those who are going to rip all over trad only special seasons should take it and learn how to paddle a canoe like a girl or get a longbow.

[Scott J. Williams]

Laddy,

     I agree, I discussed the same with my "Traditional Bowhunting" Fiancee' who by the way was once a die hard gun hunter and never touched a compound.  She is new to the sport, and sees through all the B.S.

     I am near retirement, we have decided to move back north and purchase some land.  The people associated with BOW, Being an Outdoors Woman, have a progam that is working.  We will alter the template a little and gear it to the youth you just mentioned, we will also run a bowhunting operation where "Ethics", Woodsmanship, and "Conservation will be taught to any and all who are interested.

     We decided that it would not be limit to youths only, as there is a large group of people, who could use the education in those areas.  She put it so well when she said, "the quest for the biggest has so corrupted the sport, moving it toward the lowest common denominator."  "You don't see hunters anymore, regardless of tool, we have it in traditional bowhunters also, you see shooters, killers."  

     "They have no understanding of nature, and could not care less."  "I have watched many of  them, they can't sharpen a broadhead, or a hunting knife."  "They can't even blood trail their own animals, and heaven forbid if they have to gut it themselves".  

     She has real insight into the problem, she also said this, "It takes more than killing game to make a person a hunter, and just because you shoot a traditional bow doesn't make you a traditional bowhunter."  My baby then made this comment, "The thing that gets me upset with other people when they find out that I hunt with a longbow is this, they look at me and ask me why I don't shoot a compound, or rifle."  Samantha then says, so typical, "why should I do that?"  The most common response she gets is, "it is easier."

     We do what we do, the way we do it, not because it is easy, but because it is hard. Samantha looked me in the eye and said, "why shouldn't I be proud, and feel special regarding the way that I hunt."  When I use my woodsmanship skills to get with fifteen yards and make a kill, I am special."  "What is special mean anyway, it is  something that is out of the norm or unusual, a task that is undertaken that is more difficult than that which is accepted or commonly done."

     I love the flavor of wild game, if I go a season without filling a tag, so what.  I can't say that I have enjoyed the times when my arrow put one down, more than the hunts or seasons when no arrow was loosed.

     I don't have to kill, I don't even take photos of my kills have the time.  While we don't shout from the mountain tops that we hunt with stickbows, we are sure that anyone watching us will see a ethical, respectful couple, who still are humbled by the wonders of Gods creation in nature.

     I can send money to others to fight for my rights, and I do.  I still perfer to do my part, one person at a time. If everyone would try it, we would not need the big tent.

[Brian Krebs]

I am still mulling over this:  

  "I don't think we really want to go into Fred or any of those who came before and made a living selling bows. Let's focus on the everyday folks who actually keep hunting alive today."

 Fred Bear does keep hunting alive today. People see my bow; or hear that I hunt with a longbow; and comment - "kind of like that Fred Bear- now he was a bowhunter!".  I get that a lot. People that hunt with bow or rifle know who Fred Bear was. Perhaps because they remember; perhaps because comments are made on hunting shows about him by Will Primos and others - on a regular basis.
 Point is they see Fred Bear: in a good light.

 Can we talk about Howard Hill? He made money off the sale of bows. So did Jack Howard; so did Ben Pearson. So did Dan Quillian.

 Who are the people that are trying to keep traditional bowhunting alive now? How many really good examples of not only bowhunting but humanity exist now that sell traditional bows?
 Should we talk about them in a positive way- or exempt them from discussion because they make money off of selling bow equipment?
 
 I agree with Scott. If we did our part - one person at a time- we would be better off than by only standing behind a group of people: that perhaps do not have- any concern or interest- in our way of hunting.

 I am not on the path of bowhunting that we see on television shows; or see in target shooting with compounds. I think a lot of them would follow a different path...if they understood the path that we are on.

 It is not an elitist path; it is not a fast path to success. It is one where we remember and honor those before us; like the guy who stuck a twig or a feather in his hat - just small things that reminded him to slow down and enjoy the little beautiful things as part of the hunt.

 Me thinks a lot of people here should go to the archives and read what Fred Bear and Jack Howard and others said about bowhunting. Maybe pick back up the old book 'a sand county almanac'. Or read about Ishi.

 These people are part of our roots; roots that go back that we know of 7,500 years. If we were restricted to hunting with the same bow that was pulled out of the bog that dated back 7,500 years; everyone here could hunt and be happy. In fact most of us shoot a bow that is dang close to being the same as that bow.

 I like taking my traditional bow; and stepping back in time and experiencing as much of what I can; as those hunters so very long ago; and those of my childhood that still are alive in me: when I hunt.

 Having a separate classification of bowhunting; that holds tightly to the idea that not only taking game is part of bowhunting; but picking up a twig and sticking in our hat to remind us of the little things we see when we have time to see them- is not unreasonable. I think it is indeed quite logical.

 In a time where baseball players shortcuts endanger the concept of what baseball is: I think it is wise and prudent to say who we are and what is precious to us about our activity.

 I want to say it loud and clear; so everyone can hear it. Not to be pious or elite. Just so that people understand where I come from and how I feel about traditional bowhunting.

 If that makes me or us separate in some way from others that hunt- so be it.

 I have met compound hunters and rifle hunters and muzzleloader hunters that all have great ethics and great aspirations. They have certain core principals that we share. I don't think we should hesitate at all to state what we all have in common; and what directions we are going in.

       

[vermonster13]

Well Brian if we discuss the folks we will have to go into the entire story of each and take off the rose colored glasses and go beyond the PR. They hunted in different times and there were different standards. That is the main reason I leave them alone, I've seen to many discussions of them go downhill fast and none of the statements made about them were lies just using todays context to try to define yesterdays Bow Hunters. I respect all of those men and realize they were just men as you or I are with flaws and imperfections. Trying to make a living and doing something they had great passion for.

[vermonster13]

By the way Baseball has a long history of cheating as do all of the professional sports. A reoccurring theme when money is involved sadly.

[Molson]

Don't you guys worry about baseball.  It'll all be ok now that Congress is looking into it!  

[vermonster13]

Just ask the Black Sox.    

[Jesse Minish]

I would love to see trad. only seasons or trad. only units to hunt. To me it is like having to choose a bow tag or rifle tag I don't think it divides us we are all still hunters. The antis go after the smaller groups first, regardless of special seasons. So I don't think that will affect anything. I don't rifle hunt but if they were trying to get rid of rifle hunting I would fight it to the end just like some of my rifle hunting friends would fight to keep trad. bow hunting, just like they fought for hound hunting and baiting even though they don't do that. I feel lucky to have bow seasons and hunting seasons and to be shooting trad. since I could walk but I don't feel lucky to have bow season invaded with technology and shortened because it. Just my opinion and probably said nothing that hasn't been said.

Jesse

[Jesse Minish]

I forgot to mention that rifle season runs from Oct.10 to Dec. 1 were I am so there is a lot of hunting season were I dont like or feel safe in the woods.

Jesse

[Brian Krebs]

Jessie - your opinion counts ! I thank you for sharing it.

 What some people do not see is that the opportunities we had in Idaho twenty years ago to hunt with a bow are less than they are now.

 This was done with the approval of bowhunters; who insist that they should be able to keep their  bow season: and as well their rifle seasons.
 And I do not argue that.

I do not hunt with a gun; I do not hunt in the anyweapon seasons. I have been in the woods during these seasons; and I do not feel comfortable at all being in the woods in them.

I would gladly give up the hours available for me to hunt in the any weapon season- for equal time in a traditional bow only season.

 Its not that there are not great ethical hunters out there with rifles and other weapons. The problem is that there are a lot of hunters out there - a whole lot; and I just do not enjoy a woods full of hunters and panicked animals.

 Here is one aspect; and that is the general unwritten rules of bowhunting and rifle hunting.
 
 In bowhunting; (as I have long understood); is that the first person to draw blood on an animal gets to claim the animal. With a bow; you shoot the animal; and normally it runs off and dies.

  I have had record book bucks come into range that were already fatally shot; and I only added an arrow IF the wound was one- that was not going to kill the animal- in a rapid manner.
 And then I waited for the original shooter; or back tracked the animal and found the shooter- and took them to the deer for them to claim.
  That just makes sense to me.

In rifle hunting; the guy that drops the deer gets the unwritten right to claim it.

 I once had a huge buck walk by me; and I did not shoot it; as it was rifle season; and if I had bow shot it; and it had run off fatally wounded... there was a gigantic chance someone else would shoot it as it ran off; and put their tag on it.

 Well; now - now I have talked to bowhunters that figure the first person to the deer: has the right to tag it.

Point is there are two ethical fields of thought out there; and I don't want to shoot an animal: for someone else to tag. I don't have to imagine this happening; its happened to me - more than once while I was a rifle hunter.

 I prefer the bow season.

However there are people out there bowhunting that are only there for the added opportunity; and do not understand bowhunting as we talk about it here.

 I have heard these people talk about proficiency testing*; and how they would give up bowhunting if they had to make a choice between bowhunting and rifle hunting.

 I DO NOT WANT THESE PEOPLE TO REPRESENT TRADITIONAL BOWHUNTERS !!

 This might boil down to a 'give me liberty or give me death' speech - but so be it.

 I do not want people that say they are representing bowhunting; when they mean bowhunting with a compound - and are weak kneed enough to sacrifice traditional bow hunters: in the hopes of accomplishing the goal of keeping 'hunting'.

 AND THOSE PEOPLE EXIST.

I will not brown nose those- that do not have any dedication to keeping traditional bowhunting-- in the hopes they will be ~nice~ to us; and stand for us: in future fights about hunting rights.

 In a tent; you hide from the elements.

   I prefer existing ~despite~ the elements.

If there is a place to have traditional bowhunts - that do not interfere with game management goals; why should there NOT be such seasons.

 If it is due to fear- I really don't want whoever  is saying that: to represent traditional bowhunting.

 At some time we WILL have to defend traditional bowhunting; and I have no problem doing that; over shivering in fear of the future - while I hunt with a traditional bow.

 I have no shame over the past of traditional bowhunting. I have no shame over what Fred Bear did in his life; or what Howard Hill did; or Ben Pearson or the Thompsons did- or what Pope and Young did.

 Different times? Not really. What I do is what the Native Americans did. Our history does not start with the first white man to shoot a bow. It starts with the first arrow shot; and that was at least 7,500 years ago.

 All I demand: is that the tradition continues.

*try reading in the archives about how Jack Howard describes the folly of 'proficiency testing' !

[Jesse Minish]

I agree 100% Brian I just wish that I could put into text what I think and fell like some can. Some day mabey.

Jesse

[laddy]

I understand from a nameless source that for a time Idaho had a head in the DNR that did not like bowhunting.  Maybe discussion of a special trad season is the beginning of things looking up.

[tim roberts]

NO!  I am not a beliver in the "Big Tent" concept, figure that to be way to the right thinking, but this is way to the left thinking....too far left.  
Our greatest asset as traditional bowhunters is showing that it can be done, is showing others that the true meaning of a trophy isn't measured in the height and width of a set of antlers or horns, its showing that to some it is still about the journey not the destination.  Its using these examples to lure others into our ranks and help us keep alive the "Traditional Values" of hunting.
So again not only NO, but HELL NO!

[draco]

If you want a trad only season,just wait a while,it seems to be coming, albeit slowly. There has been 2 thousand new members since I first posted earlier this year. Read the new members first posts. A majority of them speak of changing over from cables and cams to the sticks and strings. They all tell how they like it so much better. Lets keep this forum the way it`s always been,leading by example. Those other type of bowhunters,they will all be here eventually.

[draco]

Also, I dont think we need a separate season. What will it accomplish? I have over 3 months I can hunt now. What I need is more tags.
 Ever since compounds were invented,every place I`ve hunted,every hunt I`ve made,I was the only trad hunter there. I`ve took a lot of ribbing,some mean,most in good fun. I`ve done my share of ribbing too. But now,all these years later,every one I hunt with shoots a stick. Some have changed over,some have started with them.
  I dont hunt this way for any other reason but this is what archery is to me. I dont see that I`m at a handicap. A separate season just says were not as effective with our choice of equipment as they are and gives food for thought for antihunters. Dont separate us from them,get them to join us.