Wolves soon to be huntable in MT?

[Doug Campbell]

Patrick, you have to remember us that live out here amongst the wolves have been listening to the same ol crap for years. I've personally been involved with the Feds and State FWP people in wolf dealings and it's generally just a lot of BS.  We have a pack that has raised three litters of pups on the mountain just above our house.  I’ve been seeing them here for 7 years and it took three years to convince the powers that be that there was even a pack here. I was basically called everything from a nutcase to a liar even though I was seeing them on a regular basis and even had pictures. There has always been a few black wolves in this pack and the Feds told me there were no black wolves anywhere in this area. To top it off the Alpha male was collared. Bottom line if they don’t admit they are there they don’t have to take responsibility for them.

We were told a pack would need hundreds of square miles of territory each and wouldn’t tolerate other packs close. Well at one time we had three packs here within a six or eight miles radius. That amounted to 21 wolves right here in the same neighborhood. I had two horses run thru fences and cattle guards, (to the tune of $1K in vet bills), our neighbor also had two horses injured, one had to be put down. We had a calf killed along with several kills on neighboring properties. Most of these kills or injuries were confirmed wolf related but I know of no one that was reimbursed for damages. In the last couple years one of these packs contracted mange and has pretty much died out but there are still several wolves in the area.

We have been under what’s called the 10J rule here in MT for a while which means that if wolves are killing your stock or stock dog you can use lethal force to stop it. At the same time if those same wolves were eating my wives Jack Russell legally I’d just have to stand and watch… There have been several instances when Ranchers have killed wolves but most all of them will tell you after the Feds get done you feel like you’ve been drug thru a knothole backwards. You are actually guilty till you prove yourself innocent.

All game in the area has been impacted dramatically, coyotes have practically disappeared, (one was killed and partially eaten last week just up the river from our house) along with foxes, bear, cougar, bobcats… Now I know the wolves aren’t killing everything but what they don’t kill they move or harass out of the area. These guys are the ultimate predators and bullies, where ever they are they rule the roost.

I’ve called in numerous wolves while out bowhunting some within just a few feet. It was very thrilling the first few times but when you see the numbers increase like they have some of that thrill turns into concern. From what I’ve seen from the Officials I would be willing to bet that there are closer to 3000 wolves up here than the 1500 “officially” claimed. I’m not advocating wholesale slaughter but the sooner the wolves are taken out of Federal control and put under the individual State’s Game Management Departments the better.  You also have to remember that when wholesale slaughter which included trapping, shooting, poisoning, basically any means was condoned it took a hundred years to wipe out the wolves in the west so I can’t imagine there is any danger of them disappearing again.

[Walt Francis]

Dave, if they allow out of state permits, and I hope they do, you are welcome to come and hunt them with me.  I have several spare bedrooms that are available anytime you and the family want to visit.  They can go skiing or visit Yellowstone while we hunt.  If tags were available this morning we could have gone after several wolves across the road and a ¼ mile from my house.

pdk25, I believe it is insulting of you to expect us to accept a non endangered species, the Canadian wolf, which never existed in this part of North America, as a reintroduced species.  It is the same as putting a rocky mountain elk in Kentucky and calling it a reintroduced extinct eastern elk.  The Canadian wolf is not an endangered species and numbers in the tens of thousands while roaming naturally though out Canada and Alaska.  

“I …….but have never seen a wolf in the wild despite numerous trips to montana.”  If you want to see one go to the zoo, or if you want to see one in it’s natural habitat go to Canada or Alaska, viewing one in the lower 48 states is unnatural.  

A lot of emotion, your dang right, but my emotion is based on reality, scientific facts, and research, where as your is based on pure emotion: “I know it's not rational, but I have a soft spot in my heart when it comes to predators.”  Makes one wonder where the seeds of those emotions came from doesn’t it.

Guess you and I have a very different idea of what we consider a thrill:   “I had a pack within a couple hundred yards of me while on a trip to the boundary waters canoe area in minnesota after they had made a kill. That was an incredible thrill.  I don't know if there is any one event in my life that has made me feel that I was in the wild more than that."  Watching, as I have from in the “wild” as well as from my window, a pack of wolves’ takedown and kill elk is not a pretty sight, especially when they only eat part of one then continue their wanton killing spree, killing six more before disappearing chasing after the remaining elk.  Believe me there is nothing thrilling about it.  

“I don't live in the west (yet)….” the (yet) has me scared; the wildlife out west can’t afford the type of management you support.

[pdk25]

Not disagreeing with you Doug.  I just don't want to do it.  I have no problem with controlling the population.  I read on the Wyoming Game and Fish website (thanks Barney) that their population is increasing roughly 22% annually in the greater yellowstone area and slightly less overall for the state of Wyoming.  It is probably not unreasonable to believe that the growth rate is similar in Montana.    It lists a total of 162 combined sheep, cattle and horses(by far the largest number was cattle) that were confirmed killed by wolves in the state of Wyoming and 177 in the Greater Yellowstone Area.  No dogs were confirmed killed in this year and only a few in the prior years.  Overall not a large number, but a definite trend upward since since 1999.  While this trend would probably be self-limiting, wolves aren't the only predator in the woods (enter humans).  Obviously this would have a negative affect on huntin.  These figures are also almost undoubtedly underestimates of the reality since they are only confirmed kills by wolves.  Wolf population may indeed be underestimated, although I am not certain to what degree(information on the state of Wyoming's wolf populaton is available at  www.http://westergraywolf.fws.gov).   The estimated impact of the wolves on wildlife demonstrated considerable interspecies variability, with elk being a key species affected.  Estimates of a decreased hunter harvest of 5-10% in one herd was estimated due to wolf predation, although overall most areas were estimated to have considerably less effect.  I don't want to regurgitate the entire research done, but it seems obvious that sooner or later the population will need to be curbed.  Wyoming will try to maintain 15 packs and 150 total animals but only commits to 10 packs and 100 wolves.  Is this too many?  Too few?  I can't say, but there are people who are spending alot of effort trying to sort it out.  I still stand by my previous posts.  I like the idea of wolves in the wild.  Someday I will be fortunate enough to live in a state with wolves. I have no desire to hunt them personally and don't mind a "slight" decrease in the overall amount of game available for harvest within reason.  After all, there are plenty of other people more than willing to control the wolf population.  People who have livestock or pets that are killed by wolves should be reimbursed and usually are.  Wolves that are preying on livestock should be culled.  I don't have a poodle and I hate New Jersey (sorry, no offense to people from NJ, just not the outdoor opportunities that I want).

[vermonster13]

Pet loss is not reimbursed.

[pdk25]

Sorry, I didn't get to read Walt's last post prior to posting mine.  I'll respond.  

Don't presume to know what kind of management I support.  I do believe in a scientific approach.  I readily admit there is no rationality in my not personally wanting to kill predators.  I just have no desire to.  Don't worry about the "seeds" of my emotions come from.  I'm sorry that your apparent delicate sensibilities can't stand to see a pack of wolves killing the poor elk.  Not my problem.  I doubt very much that is the concern.  Much more likely the effect on the elk hunting.  Fine, just say it and be done with it.  The states wil be the final arbitor in how the wolf population will be managed. I never stated anything about wolves being a native species, only that I felt a part of the wild when I was close to them.  Not a difficult concept.  Guess what, you're not the only one that can get p****.  Particularly when attacked.

[JDinPA]

I don't live in wolf country.

I believe the wolf has been romanticized to the point where most people don't see it for what it is. To see them kill, for the thrill it seems like sometimes is harsh. But they are what they were created for - a true predator. Maybe that senseless kill was to train a  pack member or maybe it wasn't.

I applaud the states being able to regulate the hunting and I'm glad the wolf has been delisted as numbers are growing and problems are occurring.

I would hunt wolf if I lived in wolf territory.

[Lytic]

Wolves, makes me think how we're always smarter then our parents, until we get old enough to know better. I'll tell ya what they didn't go through all the hassle of getting rid of that animal for nothing.

Simply put, I don't care what some politician in DC or a Sierra Club member in CA thinks of what I should allow on my land. Each pro wolf comment I read is typically reflected by someone who does not have to deal with the problem from their own expense and property. I'll deal with the wolf about 150gr at a time.

... and that's some good stuff Walt.

[LKH]

Don't worry about hunting hurting the wolves.  They are extremely wary if pushed at all and the half tame ones in Yellowstone don't represent what will be around once they get shot at.  

Their reproductive capacity is very high if the game populations are up.

[Bonebuster]

I have never seen a wild wolf. I have heard them howl many times, and the tracks they leave in the sand and snow are simply huge.

The U.P. of Michigan has been affected greatly by the presence of wolves. The deer migrate to
yarding areas, where the cover gives them a better chance to survive the bitter cold nights.
These yarding areas have become killing grounds for the wolf. I have never seen the problem with my own eyes but have heard the SAME story from many who have. The wrost part is, it seems that the wolves eat very little of a deer they kill, and often eat NONE of them.

This winter has been especially hard on the deer, between the weather and the wolves. I had a conversation with a man who owns property in a known deer yarding area near Lake Michigan. In a short walk he found over a dozen dead deer. His son has training as a biologist, and said the bone marrow indicates that these deer did not die of starvation, and were killed with large fat reserves still under the skin. Wolf tracks were everywhere. Scavengers, and birds are all that is eating these deer.

I wonder how much of this is happening? Can the wolves really be so well fed that they don`t eat
everything they kill, even in a severe winter?

[LKH]

There are numerous instances reported of wolves killing far more than they can possibly eat. Years ago a group of rams were killed in this manner when caught in the bottom of a drainage.

[Drew]

I hope the Michigan DNR will keep control of the wolf issue in MI. I don't want to see the general public "vote" on whether we can have a hunting and trapping season on wolves...we'd lose out just like our dove season failed!

It would bring money to the state to be able to purchase a tag to trap or hunt wolves! Look how much money states that allow wolf hunting bring in in license fees.

The numbers will need to be controlled, and the people educated on wolves...right now every pet or bear dog that turns up missing is blamed on wolves...even if wolves aren't in the area.

I do feel some farmers/livestock owners will suffer....however practices can be changed for them to minimize their stock losses.  I've seen what the changes can do due to a large sheep farm next to my house with coyotes. Out west I imagine it would be impossible to minimize livestock loss due to sheer numbers of livestock and large areas necessary for grazing.

Walt, can I hunt after Dave...assuming MI doesn't get wolf tags by then?

[BigCnyn]

I hope they are a tag per year, I will be glad to shoot one a year. Seen what they do to hound hunting,to the dogs. Just my opinion..  I will shoot them, when the restrictions and proclamations allow..

[Brian Krebs]

I read Doug Campbells last entry; and it is totally accurate. I live in Idaho; south of Hamilton; which is SW Montana ( correct me if I am wrong about that); and considering wolf data; the wolves that are over there in Montana could be the same wolves we have here- if they do travel the distances they say they do.
 I lost a young donkey to the wolves; they panicked it; and it jumped and fell; breaking its neck; and NO I was not compensated; even though I was sitting right there and saw the whole thing go down.
 Because the wolves did not kill it directly; there was no compensation.
  This winter wolves ( I saw two) including one black colored one - take down another one of my donkeys; ripping a piece of its lip off.
 That vet bill is up to me to pay; there is no compensation unless you can prove the wolves did it; and if the animal is dead.
  This of course LOWERS the number of livestock and pets being killed by wolves. If a horse is run into a fence and dies; it was not a wolf kill; and that stat does not go into the wolf kill data. Ditto with injuries; ditto with missing pets- even when there is a blood stain in the snow surrounded by wolf tracks.
  I have seen wolves in action; grabbing an elk by the flank and then taking off after another; and then later watched the magpies peck at the wound until the elk bleeds to death.
  There was a reason the wolves were killed off; and its not because they took down people all the time; its because they are land sharks. The way they kill and maim is disgusting; and I have seen total antihunters buy guns to shoot wolves on sight; after seeing them kill or wound an animal.
  I was raised with dogs; and I am a dog person; and I have never killed a coyote; and I do not want to kill a wolf. If I do so; I will not shame my bow when I do it; I will use a rifle.
 No offense but a note: it is easy to accept wolves and what they do when your living in an area where you don't see what they do; and are not personally effected by it.
 The response around here to the wolves started with a moron putting out poison- which more dogs being walked by my neighbors ate than the wolves did.
 Then comes the snares. I have bird dogs; and I take side cutters with me; because if you don't cut the cable quick the dog dies. My stud dog got caught in one; which I was able to remove without cutting; I returned later to the snare; and there was the remains of an elk there- the snare on its neck.
 So some of the solutions to the wolf problem are effecting in a negative way.
 I will honestly be surprised if we get to hunt the wolves; the anti hunters are hitting the plans with one block after another.
 One thing for certain is that it will take an enourmous effort to take them down to level where they are not adversely affecting everything from bears to wolverines to elk and deer.
  Our fish and game was gagged from saying anything at all about the wolf reintroduction program; and the guy that did that; he was our governor; and now he is the head of the department of the interior.
  That alone is not good.........

[laddy]

You have wolverines?  I know that coyotes and wolverines compete for food.  The wolverines are more endangered than the wolf, if the wolf numbers are stressing the wolverine population, that should be addressed.

[Brian Krebs]

Yes we have wolverines; my neighbor was keeping track of them for years for the fish and game.
 Yes; the impact of the wolves upon the wolverine should be studied and addressed.
  When a gag order is put upon the people that are supposed to be managing all the game in a state; and they remain silent to keep their jobs; to me they have sold their souls.
  I don't expect the fish and game to address the issue; if they do it will be 10 years before they come to a conclusion; and another ten years to figure out what to do and how to do it.
  Idahos fish and game pay is not high; and it does not attract the highest quality folks.

[eidsvolling]

Originally posted by Walt Francis:
If you want to see one go to the zoo, or if you want to see one in it’s natural habitat go to Canada or Alaska, viewing one in the lower 48 states is unnatural.

This comes as news to those of use who grew up in Minnesota and who remember seeing them there.  And those of us who have seen seen wolf tracks in Wisconsin, after the wolves "unnaturally" migrated there after the Minnesota bounty was ended in the mid-60s and the Endangered Species Act protection was applied in the 70s. And to those who are aware of wolf sightings in Maine, those being animals that "unnaturally" migrated back south without regard to that "natural" international boundary.  And to those who know that the feds recently confirmed that it was a   wild wolf shot in western Massachusetts last year .

[JC]

Charles, you missed the part right before the statement you qoted...Walt was talking about the  CANADIAN WOLF, a different species than the one that is now extinct in the lower 48.

"I believe it is insulting of you to expect us to accept a non endangered species, the Canadian wolf, which never existed in this part of North America, as a reintroduced species. It is the same as putting a rocky mountain elk in Kentucky and calling it a reintroduced extinct eastern elk. The Canadian wolf is not an endangered species and numbers in the tens of thousands while roaming naturally though out Canada and Alaska.

“I …….but have never seen a wolf in the wild despite numerous trips to montana.” If you want to see one go to the zoo, or if you want to see one in it’s natural habitat go to Canada or Alaska, viewing one in the lower 48 states is unnatural."

That was Walt's statement in context, and a great point I believe.

[Brian Krebs]

One of the things that the gag order prevented game biologist from saying was: there were wolves already in Idaho- before the "reintroduction" of the Canadian wolves. They were a smaller wolf; that had been around a long time; as Lewis and Clark mentioned the smaller wolves in this area as they passed through it.
 Packs of these 1/3 smaller ( than canadian wolves) wolves were documented. The gag order was put in place to prevent that from being known.
  This "reintroduction" from the get-go was screwed up.
  Please feel free to ask yourself why the gag order was put in place.
  Asking anyone else; even with a freedom of information request: will get you nothing.
 But PLEASE feel free to try!!! Perhaps a request from outside the state of Idaho would work.
 This is how things work here: A man buys land that is next to a river; and fills in the low laying ground with fill dirt; then sells the property for a huge profit. The federal government upon numerous complaints investigates and fines the man a small sum of money.
 The man then does the very same thing again; and is fined a big sum of money- but a small portion of his profits from selling the land.
 The man then is elected to the government and is put in charge of how to diseminate the fines from acts like he committed.
 He trys to make that work to his advantage; fails; and gets elected governor.
  Good luck on your freedom of information request; as it very well could be the solution to the wolf problem.

[Brian Krebs]

ALL THE ABOVE IS DOCUMENTED.

[eidsvolling]

Originally posted by JC:
Charles, you missed the part right before the statement you qoted...Walt was talking about the  CANADIAN WOLF, a different species than the one that is now extinct in the lower 48.

No scientific authority I can find (among the several volumes here in my library on the subject) identifies as a separate   species  the Canadian gray wolves that were brought into the Northwest for the reintroduction.  (There are lots of debates about various theories of subspecies among Canis lupus.)  If you or anyone else has any contrary authority on the claimed differentiation into two species I'd welcome an opportunity to see it.