Don Thomas PBS mag letter

[Dave Lay]

Did any one else read the letter to the editor of the newest PBS magazine, by Don Thomas? if so whats your take? Don is highly respected by me and one of my favorite writers, to see him take this attitude on hunting really bothers me.. is it that bad??  I figured him to be one of the hardest core guys around.. sometimes I really get put out by issues,  but Don Thomas?????????  I hope he was just having a bad day...

[luv2bowhunt]

I have not read it... care to fill me in on what the letter said?

Kevin.

[Dave Lay]

something to the effect that due to lack of land to hunt, I assume in Montana, he was going to have to re look at his stance on hunting.. he could be afield with a camera or fly rod...  Dang, he is one of my huntin heros...

[Ryan Rothhaar]

I read the letter.  You know, some guys (maybe Don, maybe not...I don't know him personally) have had things so good for so long out West that when getting permission to hunt, or access to ground, becomes a little difficult they throw in the towel.  Once again, I'm not saying this is Don's issue, I've never talked to the guy personally, but several longtime hunters I know in MT are making similar comments and I do have a little insight there.  If some of these guys had to deal with getting access "back East" I wonder if they would have ever started hunting in the first place.  Face it the "good old days" whatever they were, are gone.  There ARE some real problems in the West (and accross the US) as far as hunting goes, but when folks back here scrape, scratch, and work their butts off for access to a 50 acre property to hunt deer on, hearing some guys whine because they have to share a 5,000 acre ranch with a couple other locals doesn't ellicit much sympathy.  I understand the overhunting issues with several popular areas in MT, and I know what out of state leasing is doing around the country including the West and Midwest, but it has always been "pay to play" one way or the other - whether money, time, connections/networking or simple friendship.  The only difference is now more folks can afford to play nowadays.

JMO

Ryan

[Joe G]

Ryan, I think you hit the nail on the head..
That is kinda what I got from his Letter..

Joe

[Blackhawk]

I have not read the letter from Mr. Thomas, but it's hard to imagine there is no place to hunt in Montana.  I have seen numerous areas in Washington close to hunting over the last 30 years, however, we still have thousands and thousands of national forest land that is still open.

If your only goal is bag a P&Y animal on every hunting trip, then you will be disappointed.  But if your primary goal is to simply enjoy the outdoors with a bow in hand, there is still plenty of wide open spaces to enjoy.

[Adirondack Bowman]

that's funny. What would he do if he had to hunt around here? Kind of seperates the men from the boys.

[Mark Baker]

I'd  chock it up to a bad day, and plenty of discouragement.   Don is one of the guys that has put in plenty of work and lent his credibility to fight "the good fight" here in MT,  and it's tough to see your efforts, year in and year out, go for little or naught.   Like Ryan aptly put it, the almighty dollar rules too many lives here, and in a state with little industry, hunting is big business and trying to keep the balance is a full time job for us  average guys.  It pits freinds and business  partners against each other, and it can get downright ugly at times.    

Putting things in perspective,  though, our 5000 acres is  probably no  more, maybe even less, productive game-wise than your 50.   And one guy with a  rifle at one end of the 5000 can flat out ruin it for a bowhunter,  or  anyone else for  that  matter.....theres nothing  in between to "buffer" one guy  from another.   Temper that with the fond memories of the "good-ol days", and the  fact that most of us  residents here  live here, not for the money, but almost solely for the outdoor opportunities....cause that is all there really  is here (or was), and  you can see why  so many have our  "bad" days.   At least I do.

[One eye]

Perhaps some are hunting for the wrong reasons.  Good luck getting 5000 acres away from other hunters here in Michigan, but I seem to enjoy my hunting every fall.

Dan

[killinstuff]

Hate to say it but guys, like Don who are excellent writers and can paint their hunt for us in words are part of the problem. I think you can look back at when Don first started writing about the great black bear hunting on the beaches in Alaska. He just about had it to himself and a few others. Now guys are standing in line to hunt those beaches. Don advertised a great product and the people bought it. Who hasn't wanted to go chase a lion or bear with Dom Thomas after reading one of his stories? Sometimes it's better to just not tell the story.

[ethan]

I have always figured it was hard to judge methods, perspectives, practices, whatever, of a particular place unless you've hunted there.

[Barney]

My opinion, and just that.        Alot of people who don't live "out west" maybe don't realize some things. You can live in some of the best hunting areas around and not be able to hunt it. You have to draw for alot of it. Imagine buying about 50 dream acres and finding out you can't hunt it. I see it all the time. You can hunt a ranch for years, get everything patterned and loose it as soon as an outfitter comes in and leases that land. Some places that are public can't be accessed if it's land locked. Other public areas, you have to get in beyond atvs with horses or alot of ambition and conditioning. Luckily, I've got horses. Horses ain't cheap. Pretty much everything "out west" is up hill at least one way.

I've got antelope close enough to watch with a spotting scope. Haven't been able to draw the area. Closest area I've been able to draw is about 2 hours away.

In Wyoming, we get about a month of bow season. That's for everything.

[Seeking Trad Deer]

He would really be in a tough spot if he only had Pennsylvania to hunt in... :eek:  

Perhaps there is some wisdom in what he says about the ever increasing limit to land access...the hard question is how this issue is solved...that I am not sure of in my state.

[Don Thomas]

Okay; against my better judgment, it's time to chime in. Yes, I was having a bad day, and no, it's probably not that bad. But... I've had this talk with a lot of friends from the south and elsewhere where leasing has always been the way of the world, and many of them can't figure out quite what our problem is out here. I am not cheap, and recognize that one does indeed need to pay, one way or the other to play. The problem is that good MT hunting ground is being leased to wealthy individuals and corporations -- or their local agents, the outfitters -- who command tremendous financial resources from their homes in Texas, New York or California. They'll pay huge dollar amounts to hunt here, because they have the money and we have the "best" hunting (whatever that means). Meanwhile, Montana, for all its beauty and natural splendor,  constantly ranks among the lowest five states (often dead last) in per capita income. Those of us who live here are willing to trade money for quality of life... but we cannot possibly compete financially with outside dot com zillionaires. Paradoxically, the only way we can enjoy much of what our home state traditionally offered is to leave it. And yes, we did pay our price.. not by shelling out thousands of out of state dollars to outfitters, but by living here, providing vital services and taking care of the place when hunting season was over, all at a fraction of the income we could have made elsewhere. I liken the situation to being colonized by the Crown prior to 1776. And on the subject of outfitters... the traditional guide offered clients a unique experience based on his own skills, hard work, and knowledge of terrain and wildlife... all without costing anyone else with the same amount of drive the opportunity to do the same. Nowadays, the "outfitter' is all to often just the drunk with the key to the gate. Ethics, skill, and knowledge are purely optional. I have a lot of respect for many of my friends who guide the traditional way, but not this. Don

[ishiwannabe]

Sounds absoluetly gut wrenching.
I lost 90 acres close to my home to a new owner. I still have 750+ acres to hunt, but that was my honey hole....and that hurt. I cannot imagine what it must be like out west.
Im scared to think about the impact stuff like that will have on the antis.

[vermonster13]

Land access and economics with a burgeoning population all bode poorly for hunting by the common American. We either adapt and recreate what hunting is to us and speak out as one voice or slowly get gnawed away at by ourselves and those who oppose us. Things don't look better for the future unless we start getting proactive and less reactive because by then it is most often to late.

[Barney]

Mr. Thomas, that was a very good reply. Sometimes I think you'd have to live here to understand.

A very good whitetail river bottom here was just bought up by a couple extreeeeemly wealthy business men from California. Not "a" ranch but 3 adjoining ranches. Not a few hundred acres either. It is now closed to all hunting and fishing except by them. The worst part is my best friend manages it. Of course you can go down the road a ways and hunt deer by the point on another big ranch.  

[Longbowmark]

What Mr. Thomas refers to here is a real and developing problem if the current approach toward obtaining hunting grounds is expected.  With all the "famous" TV hunters showing us where to go and kill a "shooter" deer (a term I find revolting)who could expect less.  If you find yourself living in Kansas, West central Illinois, Iowa or any of a list of other states and have not lost a valued hunting spot to a lease.  You are lucky and it wont last long.  This trend shows no sign of stopping in the places that have been exempt from such intrusion for years and years.   It is very possible that in my lifetime, quality hunting may become a venue for only the wealthy.  

As for those of us who hunt mostely in the east, it is not fair to compare.  In most cases, the hunting in Michigan, Penn. and other high hunter density areas is not sought after by out of state interests due to fairly poor "trophy" quality.  

I do have friends who live and hunt the trophy states, for the most part, in order to achieve this goal they had to buy large parcels of property.  Something that is out of reach for the average person.  The ones who can not afford to buy have lost up to 50% of the land they had due to leases by outfitters and out of state interests.  

What we see now will likely be magnified 10 times in the next 20 years.  I hate to sound skeptical but I think we are looking at the begining of the end.

[Don Thomas]

I am glad to see that you guys have picked up on what's really important here: this isn't about inconvenience for me and a handful of spoiled hunters, but the future of hunting. When hunting becomes the exclusive property of the wealthy, it will no longer exist, even for them in the long run. (Ask the British gentry how they enjoyed their fox hunting season last year.) The North American Wildlife Model, which is what distinguishes hunting here from almost everywhere else in the world, depends on two fundamental principles: wildlife belongs to the people, and it should be accessible to all. The commercialization of hunting, as represented by the issues I've been talking about, threatens these principles directly, and threatens the future of hunting more than the "antis' ever could. Don

[Seeking Trad Deer]

Let's hope the ethanol becomes a big business and farming takes hold to take advantage of the economic value of planting corn.