INFO: Trad Archery for Bowhunters



Author Topic: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!  (Read 3971 times)

Offline Ron LaClair

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5405
Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« on: June 17, 2008, 03:10:00 PM »
This is a copy of a thread that was started by Jim Larsen (2-Big) The thread was moved to the Hunting Issues and Politics forum and then for some reason was deleted. I was at this meeting and saw first hand Rep Joel Sheltrowns bias support for crossbows in the General Bow season. This is a REAL threat folks and we CAN NOT sweep it under the rug. I've cut and copied Jims original post.

   
Quote
"There was a bill introduced in the "Tourism, Outdoor Recreation, and Natural Resources" Committee that will take the power from the NRC/DNR and transfer it to the Legislature for issuing crossbow permits. This bill also included wording to give those 69 and older crossbow permits across the board. Last week when the Committe met to hear comments, the Representative that sponsored the bill "Rep Joel Sheltrown", changed the bill to include CROSSBOWS FOR EVERYONE in Michigan's archery season! He also brought along 3 crossbow proponents, one that was from Minnesota, to do an hour long power point presentation, to further his agenda. The opponents were allowed a "few minutes" to speak. This bill will be voted on either tomorrow June 17th or next week June 24th. PLEASE contact your state Rep and the members of the Committee and urge them to vote "NO" on HB 5741! Here is a link to your Reps and you can also find the Committee members:  http://house.michigan.gov/find_a_rep.asp"  
We live in the present, we dream of the future, but we learn eternal truths from the past
When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.
Life is like a wet sponge, you gotta squeeze it until you get every drop it has to offer

Offline Tim Fishell

  • Moderator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 3772
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2008, 03:29:00 PM »
Thanks for posting this again Ron.  I was not sure what happened to the last thread but I am sure it got deleted because of the bickering that was going on about "X-bows".  

Please if you want to do something about this please do so!  If not then don't!  But either way lets get people informed so they can make their own decisions.  

Lets keep the bickering off this post so it can stick around for the people that are unaware!!
Dreams can not be bought; they are free to those who have lived. -Mike Mitten

We must go beyond the textbooks, go out into the untrodden depths of the wilderness & travel & explore & tell the world the glories of our journey

TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline Dave Bowers

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1391
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 04:11:00 PM »
This is happening more andmore..the government trying to take power away from the DNR. Dont stand for it fellas!!

Offline WidowEater

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 683
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 04:44:00 PM »
does anyone know if it was voted on today, i sent my message in late last night.
Silence over speed.  Heavier arrows never hurt.

Offline bc

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 32
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 04:57:00 PM »
In a companionable voice, I’ll try to reiterate my sensibilities as to fact verses opinion, and why this xbow issue is troublesome, not only to me but to many of my bowhunting brothers and sisters in Michigan. Understand too, that my rhetorical voice is in measured response to the indictments leveled against Michigan's hunting archers by the xbow lobby.

Facts:

1: xbow has never fit the criteria for use in archery seasons in Michigan (other than for special needs bowhunters, law has to undergo serious plastic surgery in order to include xbows)

2: It’s a stock shouldered, fore stock braced, breech loaded, cocked and trigger fired compound catapult.

3: It can remain in a static cocked and ready attitude, much like a firearm.

4: It can be laid across a tree limb or shanty window and sighted, then trigger fired, much the same as a firearm. It even comes with scope mounts. Much like a firearm.

5: It does not have firearm ballistics, but it’s ballistic capability far exceeds those of archery gear upon which lengthy bow seasons were and are premised.

6: Last but most importantly, special needs bowhunters have ALL the access they could ever want to xbows via the law nurtured, consulted, and sanctioned by Michigan Bowhunters.

More facts:

There is not now, nor has ever been, a nascent xbow constituency in Michigan.

The disingenuous spin from the xbow arms dealers (swarming our politicians) has been that their motivation has always been to help the special needs bowhunter.

Of course the xbow arms dealers were MIA when Michigan Bow Hunter’s did the yeoman work to make sure all special needs bowhunters could have available a variety of bows, including prosthetic attachments and xbows.

During the shams that recently passed as committee meetings, it seems the xbow arms dealers co opted Michigan’s NRC and may of our more secular progressive politicians and in doing so,  trampled on the input from people like Ron LaClair and others who have unique insight into aspects of stewardship of our precious bow and arrow hunting aesthetic environment.

Opinion

Xbow arms dealers are tapping into the secular progressive wave that is coarsening our culture at large and bow hunting in particular. Fair Chase and it’s noble imperative is fodder for derision and semantic spin from those who believe that killing is what it’s all about. This segment of our hunting society would “use hand grenades if they’re made legal.” Heard one of the leaders for the destruction of our bow hunting aesthetic environment use those exact words. Witness the explosion of killing contests disguised as hunting shows on tv lately. Progressive improvement of hunting ethics? Not in my book.

This issue transcends naïve opines that we’re just a bunch of old farts hanging on to traditional institutions that are out of date. Rather, it’s about a few men and women being brave enough, in the face of the secular progressive tsunami, to take a stand as stewards of something so precious and fragile that it most be defended on a daily basis if we are going to pass it along in some kind of recognizable form to our great grandchildren.

In Michigan, our bow seasons are premised on the fact that Fair Chase plays a larger role in archery hunting than does using the most efficient killing machine available. If the later was a valid argument then there would be no need for a long bow season and we’d all just tip ‘em over with a 22.250 at 500 yds.

Again, the legacy of our archery forefathers is that my son knows the incomparable thrill of what it’s like to count a whitetail’s whiskers before he releases his arrow. And he knows the deep satisfaction vis-à-vis all the work it takes to do it consistently. No, xbows will not affect his adherence to fair chase. But they may become the norm in the woods to a whole generation who have grown up thinking that a bag of garbage, a tree stand and catapult are the traditional gear used for archery hunting. This idea may not be appealing to you folks from other states, but Michigan is the birth place of Fred Bear and all that his name, used to stand for. Years ago, I had a personal conversation with Fred (at the Michigan Deer Spectacular - he was on oxygen but still feisty) concerning the ascension of compounds and xbows. He was clear in his rejection of both for unrestricted inclusion in Michigan's bow season.

The notion that liberalizing weapons will bring more people into hunting is not working nationwide and should not be the vision for Michigan hunting season management.

At the very least politicians are not going to pull the wool over our eyes while they implement so-called progressive polices.  Not on my watch.

Offline WESTBROOK

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3385
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2008, 05:03:00 PM »
I think it passed today, Igot an email back from Sheltrown responding to the one I sent last night.

Those guys are sooo frikkin ignorant it makes me sick! Its all money and numbers.

Eric

Offline One eye

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 262
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2008, 05:09:00 PM »
No, it was passed out of Committee via a subsitution bill.  The original bill was for those under 69.  The new bill is for anyone to be able to use the crossbow.  It is now headed to the House floor for their consideration.  The real issue is here is that the crossbow pirates are taking advantage of the bowhunter's apathy.

For those from Michigan, please contact YOUR State Representative and urge them to vote no on this bill.

If this passes, opportunity will ultimately be lost as the seasons will most definitely be reduced due to overharvest on bucks during the early season.

Dan
“IMVHO, the cast is not in the wood it is cradled in the arms of the bowyer.” – George Tsoukalas

Offline Ron LaClair

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5405
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2008, 05:17:00 PM »
I was at that meeting as an opponent to the amendment to Bill No. 5741 allowing seniors 69 years and older the use of a crossbow during the regular archery season. Also to support the amendment to House Bill No. 572 on the Modified Bow

Rep Sheltrown pulled a fast one by having crossbow proponents there with a 45 minute pitch for the inclusion of crossbows for everyone in archery season. He also tabled the Bill on the Modified Bow until the next meeting because he said there wouldn't be time to address both Bills.

After the pro crossbow people presented their detailed (BS) presentation, they called up the opponents three at a time. I was called the same time as Bruce Levey and Jerry Keck. After we had our say, they ask if we had anything to present in opposition to the crossbow presentation. Of coarse we didn't because we didn't know the agenda had been changed.

I told them I came to address the matter of crossbows for seniors over 69. I said I felt like I was playing against a stacked deck and had been Blind Sided by the inclusion of crossbows for everyone. We told them that we could furnish rebuttal in a timely matter.

After I got home I made a few phone calls and found out that we could indeed present them with the OTHER side of the story. Both Pope and Young and PBS has things in place for just such a need. The last I knew, Doug Brown is taking care of that.

That meeting gave me a first hand look at dirty politics. It seems to me that Rep Joel Sheltrown is abusing his office to serve his own personal interest and that he should be called out for it.
We live in the present, we dream of the future, but we learn eternal truths from the past
When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.
Life is like a wet sponge, you gotta squeeze it until you get every drop it has to offer

Offline WidowEater

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 683
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2008, 05:54:00 PM »
Wake up to the game of politics, there is a reason I have never gone to the capital again, for the sake of political change, and that is the reason Mr LaClair speaks of.  I had similar experiences in the past with other unrelated issues of legislation.  I understand the political machine and you wont catch me running for office ever.  It is tiresome, frustrating job that people with any ethics at all will not have the stomach for.  Ive had many opportunities too, being very politically involved at college.  There is no right and wrong in politics, there is only money.  As an economist I know that all you have to do is follow the money trail.

Nonetheless I comend you Ron.  In a way I am one of the bad ones bc I gave up on it.  But it is up to everyone to keep trying even if it seems fruitless bc that is the only way there is ever going to be change.  You can only do what you can do.  If you dont like the results of this legislation you have to try like crazy to get the people who share your ideas into office next time.  

I did write to my congressman.  I gave a short sweet message to hopefully get my point accross in a timely manner (as a bunch of long emails cannot be read quickly) Then I wrote again and gave my educated opinion on why we need to preserve the tradition of michigan bowhunting using all the resources I had on such short notice.  Im just glad someone brought it up so I could do as much as I could.
Silence over speed.  Heavier arrows never hurt.

Offline Bonebuster

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3397
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2008, 07:45:00 PM »
Joel Sheltrown E-mailed me in response to my letter, and from the tone I got from it, this is all but a done deal.

The statements about money being the cause of all this are true.

According to Joel Sheltrown, there are no drawbacks to a crossbow being included in regular archery season, and the benefits are many.

What happened to "of the people, by the people, for the people"?

I have never met another bowhunter face to face, who was in favor of allowing the use of crossbows.
If so many people are in favor of it, why have I never met one?

I hope the hype fades quickly, and all the crossbows that are sure to be purchased are soon collecting dust.

Offline WESTBROOK

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3385
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2008, 08:06:00 PM »
According to Mr. ShellClown:


Dear Eric:
 
House Bill 5741 was adopted by the House Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources Committee today with an overwhelming majority of the committee members in support of the bill.  An H-2 version of the bill was adopted allowing crossbow use in any season and for any game in which a compound bow may be used.  This version would give Michigan hunters the same rights as hunters in neighboring Ohio and Ontario.  I recognize your opposition to this bill.  Over the many months in which I have reviewed this issue,  my opinion on crossbows has changed.  I can find no compelling reason to restrict crossbow use in the archery season only to people who are permanently disabled or even those above a certain age.  We may have to simply agree to disagree on this issue.  My vote on this issue is what I feel is in the best long-term interest of Michigan hunting.
 
Michigan hunting is in a crisis.  Over the past decade, the number of archery deer hunters in our state has declined from 380,000 to 300,000.  Michigan continues to lose hunters at a rate higher than the national average.  All the states surrounding Michigan have crossbow laws that are more permissive than Michigan's.  The national trend is toward full inclusion rather than age or disability restrictions.  Louisiana and South Carolina just adopted full inclusion and Delaware is about to.  As I said above, our neighbors in Ohio and Ontario already benefit from full inclusion.
 
Data from states allowing full inclusion show a greater rate of hunter retention during their archery seasons but no state has experienced an explosion of crossbow hunters.  No state allowing full inclusion has found it necessary to restrict season length to address a negative management impact.  In addition, hunter accident rates between crossbow users and vertical bow users are nearly identical.
 
The mechanics and ballistics of a crossbow are very similar to a compound bow.  Both use the energy store in the drawn limbs of the bow to create a rapid motion when the string is released to propel an arrow toward a target.  The performance of crossbows and compound bows are very different than the performance of firearms.
 
I recognize the arguments about tradition and that many people feel crossbows are not challenging enough.  But allowing some hunters to use crossbows is not going to take away the personal traditions of other hunters.  Similar arguments were made when the compound bow was legalized several decades ago.  Yet, many bow hunters still enjoy using long bows and recurve bows rather than compound bows.  Rather than arguing about what is a bow and what isn't a bow and what bows should be allowed in archery season, all bow hunters should step back and realize the threat hunting faces in our state due to the steady decline in the number of hunters in the field in October and November.
 
Sincerely,
 
Joel Sheltrown
State Representative
103rd House District

Offline 2-BIG

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2008, 08:45:00 PM »
Thanks for putting this back up Ron.  :readit:  He seems like an honest guy, I believe him.  :rolleyes:
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not. - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Ron LaClair

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5405
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2008, 08:58:00 PM »
Quote
He seems like an honest guy, I believe him.   :rolleyes:    
If the sales of fishing license's dropped off it would be interesting to see if Sheltrown would be in favor of legalizing Dynamite for fishing. Probably not though because there's not enough money in the sale of dynamite.    :readit:
We live in the present, we dream of the future, but we learn eternal truths from the past
When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.
Life is like a wet sponge, you gotta squeeze it until you get every drop it has to offer

Offline bc

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 32
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2008, 09:09:00 PM »
There is a reason that legislators have a lower ranking in polls that GW Bush, and Rep Joel Sheltrown is the poster boy for the dishonesty and corruption in our government that engenders that low opinion from honest and decent citizens.

His filthy deed will not be forgotten. Neither will his enablers in the NRC.

Offline WidowEater

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 683
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2008, 09:54:00 PM »
Rep Sheltrown is no more corrupt than anyone in government, yes even the people that only work for the government too.

When I first read about this bill I thought it might have something to do with the declining number of bowhunters.  The number of hunters period is going down in this state though.  This can only be a short term solution.  The main reason the number of hunters is going down I believe is because the legislation is making more and more inconvienient to do so.  That being said maybe it is just video games taking over or who knows but if the trend continues then maybe they will allow dynamite for fishing in the future.

I have been a strong proponent of getting rid of the shotgun zones in MI for years (I will not discuss the reasons here) but now im not so sure bc I am sure that is the road MI is heading down with this new crossbow revolution.  

I agree with Sheltrown that this is no more an issue than it was when compounds were introduced but that doesnt mean it should be done.  Kind of a progress for progress' sake if you will.

My political fires have been rekindled with this one but please remember no matter what happens out of this, it was done by forces beyond us working for reasons that are not ours.  It may have been influenced by only one man but the legacy it leaves behind will effect us all.

Also remember that we are traditional bowhunters who have shunned bow technology.  (although not arrow; exception Mr LaClair)  And we may be a group that is quite a bit more biased towards the introduction of new tech into our beloved bow season.  Having said that I am still totally opposed to the crossbow, period.
Silence over speed.  Heavier arrows never hurt.

Offline WESTBROOK

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3385
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2008, 10:18:00 PM »
Theres more reasons for declining numbers than the crossbow will begin to fix.

How many Mi. bowhunters are now job hunters, in another state?

Eric

Offline WESTBROOK

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3385
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2008, 10:27:00 PM »
Maybe Mr. Shelltrown should be invited to Comptons this weekendand we could...lets say...enlighten him!

Eric

Offline Ron LaClair

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5405
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2008, 10:28:00 PM »
Quote
Rep Sheltrown is no more corrupt than anyone in government  
http://www.rightmichigan.com/story/2007/10/31/103434/30
We live in the present, we dream of the future, but we learn eternal truths from the past
When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.
Life is like a wet sponge, you gotta squeeze it until you get every drop it has to offer

Offline WidowEater

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 683
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2008, 10:30:00 PM »
That brings up another good point surrounded by the stench of increasing government revenue.  The current state of this.....state..... is one that is definitely going to be easier to get something like this to gain a fury of public support.  A public that most likely does not hunt and a public that sees it as a way of increasing the states revenue without raising taxes.  As the good Rep said there is a great deal of support.  I can definitely see why.

And Ron:  Thats quite a list of corruption.
Silence over speed.  Heavier arrows never hurt.

Offline WESTBROOK

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3385
Re: Michigan Bowhunters Alert!!!!
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2008, 10:34:00 PM »
One can always find support if one knows who to ask.

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©