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Author Topic: Dave Petersen for President  (Read 4459 times)

Offline brmize

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 11:17:00 AM »
Oops! It was not my intention to portray Dave as an outdoor personality. Please don't take that impression from what I wrote. SORRY DAVE!!!!! I am just a huge fan of Dave's work and have corresponded with him via e-mail so I guess I should just shutup and let Dave speak for himself.
Once again sorry Dave.

Brian
"After we've lost a natural place, it's gone for eveyone-hikers, campers, boaters, bicyclists, animal watchers, fishers, hunters, and wildlife-a complete and absolutely democratic tragedy of emptiness."  Richard Nelson

Offline Clay Hayes

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2008, 10:02:00 PM »
David has a wonderful mind.  Yet people of his caliber are never fully appreciated in their own time.  It’ll take a hundred years and a lot more “progress” before people begin to realize that he is truly brilliant.  

I haven’t read ghost grizzlies yet, though he hinted at anti trapping sentiments in other works.  Even though, I’d love to share a campfire with the man.

For president we need another Teddy Roosevelt, hands down.

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2008, 11:45:00 AM »
Got that right. Let's dig up T.R and run him against the current crop!

Offline Smilingg

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2008, 12:42:00 PM »
From President Theodore Roosevelt's first annual message to Congress: " Wise forest production does not mean the withdrawal of forest resources, whether of wood, water, or grass, from contributing their full share to the welfare of the people, but, on the contrary, gives assurance of larger and more certain supplies. The fundamental idea of forestry is the perpetuation of forests by use. Forest protection is not an end in itself; it is a means to increase and sustain the resources of our country and the industries which depend on them."

From T. R.'s 4th annual message to Congress: " It is the cardinal principle of the forest-reserve policy of this Administration that the reserves are for use. Whatever interferes with the use of their resources is to be avoided by every possible means. But these resources must be used in such a way as to make them permanent."

Offline Tdog

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2008, 07:49:00 PM »
Hunt, Trap , Fish if your not for all of them... Go sit DOWN....

Offline Dave2old

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2008, 10:39:00 PM »
Ah, dear friends and critics. Sorry to be late, but I've been hunting nonstop for some time and only just tonight got this thread from a "friend." As a man I honor for his convictions once advised, "If you don't stand for something, you stand for nothing." What I stand for changes as times change and as I learn. Am I against trapping? Depends. Among my closest friends is a true AK bushrat who has subsisted 125 miles from the nearest road or village, in a relatively game-poor part of interior AK, for nearly 30 years. His annual income is around $10,000, including the free oil money all Alaskans get from politicians who want them to keep voting for more pipelines, part from weaving Athapaskan style baskets from all local natural materials that he and his family send out by their semi-annual bushplane visits to Fairbanks, where they are sold in tourist shops (and native Indians who have lost the art come to him to relean them). The rest from trapping of martin, 30 to 50 a year. He doesn't like it, but he needs to do it. My "fault" as many view it is that I care a great deal about the animals we catch, hunt, and trap ... more, bottom line, than I care for any of our "sport" activities, though hunting has shaped and still drives my life. In a wildlife meeting once, the state commission chair, tired of hearing everyone say "I want more and more," said "Isn't anyone willing to give anything back to the resource." To which I said "If I saw convincing evidence that I needed to quit hunting elk, for the elk's sake, it would cut a huge chunk out of my life but I would do it." Everyone in the room, including the commissioner, looked at me like I was crazy. Some will understand that it was a defining moment in my learning. Specifically, I would like to see an end to leg hold traps in favor of Connibear and other instant-kill traps, which my AK friend, by the way, has long used. It's the prolonged suffering in non-kill traps I can't stomach, esp. when some weekend trappers check their sets only weekly. Nothing is black and white. Everything is subtle shades of gray. And while I greatly appreciate the nomination, huntryx, indeed, anyone who makes a career of politics is either a martyr or a monster. Many are part both. The only thing I am "running for" is retirement, which I will never be able to afford since I chose to be a non-commercial writer and live in elk country over taking a "real" job. And no regrets. In a world where everyone things alike, there is no thinking at all. Thanks again, Dave

Offline Shane H

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 09:46:00 AM »
I write with reluctance for I dont want to come across too personal, but I feel like it needs to be said. I give a great deal of respect to most opinions on the basis that everyone is different. In fact some of Daves Ideas are spot on with mine. I just dont understand the intolerance, or the need to completely bewiddle someones integrity as a human being just because they choose to do things a little different. There is right and wrong, but there happens to be a lot of grey area, as someone just said. So while we dont have to join forces with those whos actions "repulse" us, we should at the very least try not to execute those whom we dont even know. Sorry.

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2008, 12:35:00 PM »
Shane I'm a bit confused--could you be more specific?? Dave, I am beyond disappointment although I do think it proves my point--those who should run don't want to. Integrity is in short supply in Washington DC.

"Illigitimatii non laborandum".......

Offline Tdog

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2008, 05:50:00 PM »
Dave you are miss informed on trapping. Inform yourself then speak.

Offline Shane H

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2008, 10:44:00 PM »
Huntryx, I am more refering to the recent writings in Traditional Bowhunter.

Offline Clay Hayes

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2008, 09:13:00 AM »
“Fault”, I can find none with someone who genuinely cares for wildlife.  Any human who is selfless enough to take into consideration the welfare of the resource above their own wants or “needs” has my respect.  On the other hand, many people, some of whom consider themselves “avid sportsman”, think of wildlife only as property.  With this type of attitude, it’s easy to be disconnected and indifferent.  One glaring example of this lack of respect is shed hunting on winter range – not all, but some.  For example, when folks chase or push a deer herd that is already stressed and perhaps on the brink of starvation, just for an antler.  Or when, as Dave says “weekend trappers check their sets only weekly” leaving animals to languish for days on end.

As far as leg hold traps go, if used responsibly they are humane enough.  Using connibear on canids just isn’t practical.  There are slobs in all ranks, even our own.  

ch

Offline kirkwhitehead

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2008, 04:35:00 PM »
Interesting topic. After finishing the 2 articles in the lastest TBM I thought about sending the editors an email expressing my disgust for the text. While I do not own an ATV nor do I plan on getting one, I find Mr. Petersens' views basicly no different than the ATV crowd. Both are acting childish about access/right to use land. Both have a right to be thier even if the other one does not like it. I understand about ATV noise and I don't like it either but heck the owners are following the rules(should be). I have spent years hunting whitetails in Alabama and Georgia and everyone on every lease I have hunted has a 4 wheeler to get to and from camp.

And the canned hunt thing.Well living in Texas is different than atleast 48 other states.EVERYTHING here is owned by someone not named Uncle Sam. And if you are a father of 4, work 50 hrs a week and do not own land. here are your choices: (1) pay for a hunting permit and then apply for a lottery hunt with a very low chance of getting drawn for an area that might be 400 miles from your house with antler restrictions that basicly say P&Y only (2) buy your way onto a lease with guys runnin4 wheelers to and from camp and FEEDERS (3) hunt a day lease high fence or low, and pay 500.00 or more per killed animal or (4) don't hunt. So from a high perch what is a guy to do? Me, I go out of state once a year for 4 days, hunt a low fence place once a year, and trade work to hunt pigs once a year. I don't have the money to hunt a high fence place but I don't think any less of those that do. The animal is not going into P&Y so what do I care? The person doing the shooting is putting money into archery by buying gear ,helping conservation efforts with tag purchases and in general is having a good time with family,friends or enjoying the silence. In any event I don't think it was his place to put down the guys that do go to these places. And in Texas a large percent of the trad shooters do go to these outfits.

So in short, I would vote for the other guy or girl.

Kirk
kirk

Offline Ray_G

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2008, 07:31:00 PM »
Kirk,

I will not pretend to speak for Dave nor will I profess to know about hunting or outdoor activities in Texas or any Eastern states.
I can speak on what I have seen out here in Idaho which seems to be representative of most of the mountain West states.

"I understand about ATV noise and I don't like it either but heck the owners are following the rules(should be)."  quoted from your post.

I would prefer that your statement were true but here it is not.  Much of gov't managed land has regulations about off highway vehicle use.  Much of it is ignored by the users.  Many areas have limited OHV use to existing roads that can be travelled by trucks and cars, including secondary logging roads.  This does not stop many users from barreling around the mountains on closed roads or making their own trails creating erosion and habitat loss.  Wildlife managers co-ordinate with state and federal land use managers to create wintering ground areas for our beloved elk and deer in areas that are supposed to be off limits to motorized traffic to help prevent pushing wildlife (which diminishes their Winter fat reserves) and poaching.  These restrictions are ignored by OHV users as well.

I don't mean just one bad apple, either.  I have had many encounters with 4 wheelers and snowmobiles while hunting in non-motorized areas.  While hunting, I have walked in 4 to 5 miles from the last motorized point and been overtaken by them - once a 6 wheeler with 4 guys on it!  If this has happened to me in just my time afield, it is happening a lot.  I have family and friends with the same experience.

Additionally, development is taking place at an alarming rate in wintering grounds adjacent to these gov't managed lands.  This compounds the problems of Winter carry over and the next year's recruitment in wildlife populations.

So, while in some states the OHV issue while annoying is legal, in much of the mountain West we will only have dreams of how it used to be unless the voices of those who stand for the welfare of the animals are listened to.  The U.S Forest Service office in my area told me that they are developing new regulations but they also acknowledge that they can't even enforce the ones they currently have due to politics and short staffing.

Dave Peterson and many others are the voices leading the charge for the preservation of the resources we all love and 'ooh and ahh' at from Trad Gang posted photos.  

Ray
Sunset Hill 64" 54# @ 26"  "Destiny"

B.H.A.

Offline TRAP

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2008, 08:02:00 PM »
Thank You for responding to my question Dave,   I wondered if you would and I’m glad you did.   It’s always better to hear it from the source.  

I’m going to do my best at saying something that concerns me without making too many enemies along the way.  I agree that the world is a better place because we all think a little differently.  I’m also thankful there are a few people out there with the ability to think for themselves and not just follow the opinions and teachings of others which they hold up on a pedestal.

I would agree with Tdog’s statement that you should educate yourself about trapping before writing about it and vocalizing your opinions in public because of the potential damage your “celebrity” status is capable of.    Why do I say this?  The description of trapping you just gave in your response is not an accurate description of trapping in general.  There may be a few states that allow trappers to make sets on the weekend and not run those traps until the following weekend but those states are few and far between.  I couldn’t agree more that the laws in those states should be changed but I don’t believe trapping should be banned in said states.  It should be made better.  Ethical trappers would never consider this practice.  Let’s all work together to make trapping and hunting more ethical by supporting positive changes in methodology which leads to a higher awareness for animal welfare.  Let’s not just ban it because we don’t like it the way it is.  

When you make claims that “leghold” traps should be replaced by Conibear traps you further display your lack of knowledge about trapping, especially in the Eastern U.S.  Try catching coyotes in conibear  or “killer” type traps while not risking the life of an upland hunter’s fine German Shorthair or a western hunter’s lion dog.  Where conibear type traps can be used safely and effectively I’m all for them but there are situations where they just don’t apply.  

The Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies (AFWA) is in the final stages of a Trapping Best Management Practices (BMP) study that is addressing animal welfare, trap selectivity, efficiency, and safety for various trap types and animals caught in those devices.  Once completed the results of the BMP will be available in the form of recommendations for state wildlife agencies to use in development of trapping regulations.  

As a biologist I tend to focus more on populations of animals instead of individuals.  I agree that each animal taken by trap, gun or bow deserve our respect.  Trapping is a highly regulated activity focused on the harvest of  abundant wildlife species.  Canine distemper, sarcoptic mange, raccoon rabies and others are diseases that concern me and are more prevalent in areas with high population densities.

   

 
Without trapping, the U.S. would suffer more losses from these diseases than it currently does.    Trapping of furbearers benefits other wildlife populations such as ground nesting birds as well.  Quail, pheasant, turkeys, grouse and many other species are subject to nesting failures where raccoons, skunks and o’possum populations are too dense.  It’s hard to trap raccoons in the Midwest without killing beagles if you’re restricted to Conibear use.  There are several traps currently on the market that are completely “dog-proof” and with these traps animal welfare scores have been extremely favorable through AFWA testing.

Colorado has lost a lot.  Spring Bear hunting, hunting bears with dogs and bear baiting became a thing of the past when Amendment 10 passed in 1992.  In 1997 Coloradoans lost their right to use “foothold” traps.  They will likely lose the right to kill bobcats in the future because of the likeness bobcats have to the federally threatened Lynx.  The fact that mountain lions have killed and attacked a few people in recent times is probably the only reason Coloradoans can still hunt them but the sentiment is changing.  Here’s an excerpt from a public opinion survey recently administered in Colorado.

      “The hunting of mountain lions is a fractious issue. Respondents are split on this issue, with 47 percent supporting legal and regulated hunting
and 41 percent opposed to it. Those who were opposed to it were more likely to feel strongly about this issue (18 percent strongly support hunting,
and 24 percent strongly oppose it). In response to a question about whether or not mountain lion hunting should be banned, 46 percent disagreed with
a ban, while 34 percent agreed with a ban.”

Dave, I don’t know how you stand or stood on those non-trapping issues but as I stated in a previous post, the banning of trapping is just a small victory for the antis in the large war being waged against the outdoorsman’s way of life.  It’s sad to know a fellow sportsman aided their cause. The role you played in that is not unlike that of a Hollywood celebrity that is asked to speak at an animal rights fundraiser.  It really makes no difference how much the celeb knows about the issue.  It’s just important that he/she has a following that will get on board for the battle.

You’ve willingly tossed trappers under the bus in the past and it now appears that through your recent TBM articles you are trying to garnish support from the traditional bowhunting  community for your war against development of public lands and ATV use on said lands.  Some of which, are ATV owning trappers.

Let me see, I doubt many knowing trapper’s, or folks that hunt behind fences (even those fenced areas of mammoth proportions) or ATV owners will be with you on the firing line.  You’re running out of soldiers my friend.  

After reading your response to the question I asked you, I kinda formed my own opinion from your answer.  You voted to support a ban on trapping because you didn’t care about trappers and you probably still don’t .  The sad thing is, you could have just as easily worked to change trapping and used your celebrity status in a positive way , thus preserving trapping in the state of Colorado.  Why bother right, you had nothing at stake in the fight? Or did you?

I’m not saying we should all prescribe to the big tent theory.  Heck, there are  a lot of things inside the tent I’m against as well, however,  I’m not one to shake the ridge pole from inside the tent.  I’d rather help tidy it up with my brothers.  There are enough people on the outside tugging at the corners as it is.

Just remember, as I stated before, in the grand scheme of things, there really aren’t that many trappers out there, but there arent that many Longbow “Purists” out there either. Hopefully the anti's sights won’t be set on them next.

Daryl
"If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" Gen. Eric Shinsheki

"If you laugh, and you think, and you cry, that's a full day, that's a heck of a day." Jim Valvano.

Offline Clay Hayes

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2008, 08:03:00 PM »
Ray's got it.  I'm from the south and currently living in Idaho.  ATV's are a whole different animal out here.  It's disgusting!  I've seen guys busting through the sage brush in the spring looking for sheds and pushing deer and elk as they go.  I’m sure there are many ATV users that follow the rules, but many more that don’t.  There’s no way the officers can keep tabs on all the back country out here.  The slob users know and exploit it.  I haven’t read Dave’s article, so I can’t comment on what was said.  

ch

Offline Clay Hayes

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2008, 08:11:00 PM »
Well said Trap.

Offline kirkwhitehead

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2008, 09:43:00 PM »
Clay, I should have not been so willing to think people follow the law. If what you are saying is the truth it sounds as though the  managers of said lands need to rule with an iron fist. I have no tolerance for those that break game laws or land management regulations.If it says no fires, it means no fires!  So I guess I need to alter my stance a bit. If they are riding in allowed areas,fine. If they drive through MY camp we gonna talk!

In the south eastern U.S. we have lost all large predators and the coyote populations is steady climbing, not to mention, coon, skunks, and feral hogs. While everything has its place nothing is controlling the yotes. Leghold sets and bowhunting/gun hunting them is the only means of control. I have help track 5 deer in Alabama that were lost to yotes in  matter of 2-10 hrs after the shot. I don't like the doctor either but somethings ya just gotta do.

kirk
kirk

Offline Bjorn

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2008, 10:08:00 PM »
Trap you obviously put considerable work into your thoughtful ideas and responses on this thread.
It is clear you have a lot of knowledge on trapping and hunting few of us can equal, especially being coupled with a Field Biologist's expertise as well.
Thanks for taking the time to enable us to undestand the picture more clearly.

Offline 2-BIG

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2008, 07:29:00 AM »
Trap, awesome post. Some of the best true Conservationists come from the trapping community and I have trapped for most of the past 35 years and if I thought for one second that trapping was cruel or inhumane or caused ANY suffering whatsoever, I would not trap. I have to agree that people that are against trapping have never done it and are extremely misinformed.  :readit:
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not. - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Drew

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Re: Dave Petersen for President
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2008, 08:36:00 AM »
Trap, well thought out and explained post...you are gem among us fellow trappers! We tend to spend much more time educating people on trapping than we do actually trapping these days.

May your lines be full of fur, and your arrows fly true this fall!
Just a Coyote Soul out wandering...

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