serious situation brewing over wolves..

[Ray_G]

Jake, glad you feel better.  Haven't caught up with you in awhile - since Western States      Yikes!!

"This has been a non hunting agenda since the begining. Their thought being that with an apex predator to do the hunting all other hunting would not be needed."

I think that statement encompasses the crux of the matter.

Ray

[bravedeer]

The only flaw with crandog's argument is that the wolf's habitat was most of North America before they were killed off.

[vermonster13]

Different species of wolves.

[Brian Krebs]

I talked with biologists that insist they have data on the existing wolves that were here in Idaho before the 'reintroduction' of the wolves we have.
 
 Lewis and Clark noted in their journals that the wolves around here were smaller than the wolves they saw in other places.

 Then too; there were wolves coming in and out of the state that were radio collared - we got along fine with wolves for some time before this mess.

[mwmwmb]

In North America there were only 2 species of wolves.  Canis lupus  (grey wolf covering most of north america) and Canis rufus (Red wolf mostly south east and belived to have interbred with coyotes)

[Barney]

Jerry Kysar shot a wolf here in Wyoming in '92.

[vermonster13]

Correction, they were a different sub-species. There are only two species of wolf recognized on the entire planet. But there are/were five different subspecies of grey wolf in North America.

Canis lupus occidentalis (Rocky Mountain Wolf, Mackenzie Valley Wolf, Northwestern Wolf); Canis lupus nubilus (Great Plains Wolf); Canis lupus lycaon (Eastern Wolf, Eastern Timber Wolf); Canis lupus arctos (Arctic Wolf); Canis lupus baileyi (Mexican wolves, Mexican Grey Wolf, or Lobo).

[mwmwmb]

Dont forget about the Ethiopian Wolf  Canis simensis

[Brian Krebs]

that is really neat to know. Thanks    

[Ray_G]

Originally posted by bravedeer:
The only flaw with crandog's argument is that the wolf's habitat was most of North America before they were killed off.

Interesting that they haven't been sent to other states in N.A.  There seems to be enough prey for them (not that I would wish it on anyone else) so why just the few states where they brought them in?  Our legislature recently passed a mandate on to our Fish & Game to try to give away some of our wolf abundance to other states.  Of 20 states contacted, none accepted.  Go figure! The mandate was a precursor to any attempted litigation to stem the hunting season for them.  I guess they figure to show that hunting is necessary for control seeing how capturing and releasing elsewhere is not going to work.

Before the Canadian transplants were brought in, our F&G wildlife managers and biologists were telling us of recruitment problems with elk herds, mostly due to predation of new calves.  Obviously, there are other factors like Winter kill, loss of Winter habitat, fewer timber harvests, hunting pressure, etc.  So as our elk populations were declining, in comes the transplants!  Someone needs a reality check or .... never mind.   :mad:   We now have a severely affected elk population and I have not seen any info on deer.  The wolves do not always eat their kills.  In one instance related to me by a lion outfitter, he came upon five dead elk cows in the snow with only wolf tracks around and all that was eaten was their fetuses.  The rest of the otherwise healthy, pregnant (not the weak and sick!) elk was left for the ravens and magpies.  This is man's manipulation of the habitat and left uncontrolled to the havoc that is amongst us.

[vermonster13]

Originally posted by mwmwmb:
Dont forget about the Ethiopian Wolf  Canis simensis

I'm 100% sure the Ethiopian Wolf isn't a North American breed. It also isn't 100% sure that they are a wolf, the jury is still out. Some believe they are more closely related to the Jackle.

[mwmwmb]

Originally posted by vermonster13:
Correction, they were a different sub-species.  There are only two species of wolf recognized on the entire planet.  But there are/were five different subspecies of grey wolf in North America.

Canis lupus occidentalis (Rocky Mountain Wolf, Mackenzie Valley Wolf, Northwestern Wolf); Canis lupus nubilus (Great Plains Wolf); Canis lupus lycaon (Eastern Wolf, Eastern Timber Wolf); Canis lupus arctos (Arctic Wolf); Canis lupus baileyi (Mexican wolves, Mexican Grey Wolf, or Lobo).

There are only two species of wolf recognized on the entire planet.
that was what i was referring to.

[mwmwmb]

Phylogenetic analysis using mitochondrial DNA
sequencing suggested that C. simensis is more closely
related to the grey wolf (C. lupus) and the coyote (C.
latrans) than to any African canid (Gottelli et al. 1994),
and that the species may have evolved from a grey wolflike
ancestor crossing to northern Africa from Eurasia as
recently as 100,000 years ago (Gottelli et al. 2004).

While this has nothing to do with situation in ID. It shows what I was talking about previously. We need to manage by Current, up-to-date science not public opinion.

[mwmwmb]

Here is a funny PETA parody about wolves.
 http://unquietmind.com/petawolf.html

[Brian Krebs]

LOL!

[vermonster13]

Originally posted by mwmwmb:
Phylogenetic analysis using mitochondrial DNA
sequencing suggested that C. simensis is more closely
related to the grey wolf (C. lupus) and the coyote (C.
latrans) than to any African canid (Gottelli et al. 1994),
and that the species may have evolved from a grey wolflike
ancestor crossing to northern Africa from Eurasia as
recently as 100,000 years ago (Gottelli et al. 2004).

While this has nothing to do with situation in ID. It shows what I was talking about previously. We need to manage by Current, up-to-date science not public opinion.

Which they think may have crossbred with Jackles. But all of it is theory and maybes at this point.

Now back to what is happening on this side of the ocean.

[mwmwmb]

This goes back to what i was discussing about with respect to this side of the ocean.

First you say "Some" believe that they are related to Jackals, Then I cite the science that was used to elevate them to wolves and proves that they are not Jackals. Then you say "THEY" think that may have crossbred with Jackals.

IF this were the case they would be more closely related to Jackals than Grey wolves. the DNA says otherwise.

Cite some science. THIS IS MY POINT ABOUT THE USA. USE SCIENCE NOT PUBLIC OPINION TO MAKE THE BEST MANAGEMENT DECICIONS.

[vermonster13]

"Taxonomy:

DNA analysis has shown that Ethiopian wolves are more closely related to grey wolves and coyotes than to any African canid (Sillero-Zubiri et al. 2004)."

It is closely related to wolves but not a true wolf. That is the science.

The wolf reintroduction here has nothing to do with science and all to do with politics. A larger sub-species was introduced into an environment with an already stressed herd that had not evolved to deal with this particular sub-species. Man playing God rarely if ever works.

[crandog]

Its OK.  Quotas have already been set for different zones.  12 bucks for a resident tag.

[Ray_G]

Here are some "scientific" facts:

"Fish and Game models indicate Idaho now has at least 1,000 wolves. The population increases at a rate of about 20 percent a year, without hunting."

"Commissioners want to manage the wolf population toward the 2005 level of 520 wolves through regulated hunting (five-times higher than the federal recovery goal). The 2005 wolf population figure was used as a target number because wolf conflicts both with wildlife and livestock increased significantly that year."

Quoted text found here:  http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=5049

Notice the first quote says "at least 1000".  In the next quote it states "the 2005 level of 520 wolves".  Most resident hunters (who have a strong opinion I might add, as it is our state and wildlife) have held the opinion that the 1000 mark was hit a few years ago - no hard evidence but field observations.  Our Fish and Game commissioners took a first vote at the meeting to quota enough kills to reduce the wolf population to five times US Fish and Wildlife recovery levels. USF&W previously approved Idaho's plan for those numbers.  The vote was 3 Yeas and 4 Nays.  A second vote was taken and we have a hunt scheduled to start with a kill quota of 220.  It is a start but will still leave at least 800 wolves and new recruitment of their population.  The quota levels will need to be increased to maintain the population as is if 220 are killed or greatly increased to see the population at or near five times USF&W level.  We will still have elk reductions until wolf quotas are increased.

"The wolf reintroduction here has nothing to do with science and all to do with politics. A larger sub-species was introduced into an environment with an already stressed herd that had not evolved to deal with this particular sub-species. Man playing God rarely if ever works. Vermonster13"

Good comment, Dave.  Politics is why I raised the issue of states rights.  Our Fish & Game Department's mission statement as in the State's Wildlife Policy reads: "All wildlife, including all wild animals, wild birds, and fish, within the state of Idaho, is hereby declared to be the property of the state of Idaho. It shall be preserved, protected, perpetuated, and managed. It shall be only captured or taken at such times or places, under such conditions, or by such means, or in such manner, as will preserve, protect, and perpetuate such wildlife, and provide for the citizens of this state and, as by law permitted to others, continued supplies of such wildlife for hunting, fishing and trapping."   A federal mandate has come in and overstepped the last part of that policy.  Our founding fathers of our nation wrote warnings about an overreaching federal government and the consequences of the same.  

It is[/b] about politics and feel good emotions for many who will never step foot into the areas where the wolves are nor suffer the loss of indigenous wolves, elk or other living creatures.  That is public opinion and not science!