Privilege or right?

[Tsalagi]

I agree. I tend to think there should be a "sliding scale" based on net income. Bring in a paycheck stub and that's how your tag and/or license fee should be set. It makes no sense that some rich lawyer can fly in from out of state, hire guides and outfitters, and bag an elk that he may or may not even want the meat from while a working man who could use that meat can't afford the tag. This is what'll cause the demise of hunting.

[Maxximusgrind]

You may verry well be right my friend,but what are we to do?We all should have a right to hunt,but more and more people are getting left out because thay cant pay to do it.If the powers that be,want to take away the right-it can be done as easily by raising fees as it can by changing laws.

[Tsalagi]

Yes, I totally agree with you. It's a problem all over the spectrum in this country and hunting is just one more symptom of it.

I think it takes getting involved in grass roots organizing on the issue. It would take people in the state to attend the game and fish public meeetings and start bringing this up. Oh, they're going to give you the poppycock that "Well, tags have only gone up 11.364% since fiscal quarter whozits when Commissioner McFlapdoodle was in!" That's when you ask the guy what his take-home pay looks like and, usually, it will be more than yours. And also point out that even if they've only raised the tag fees by 11%, wages have only increased by less than 6% for the majority of Americans since 1980. Basically, wages are stagnant and have been since the 1980s and haven't kept up with the prices of many things. There are several books where you can prove those statements, too. They're also going to tell you that we have to pay for wildlife and wilderness programs and that's great. But maybe it's time to start looking into fiscal acountability. Where exactly is the money going? Is it really going to wildlife, or is it disappearing down various ratholes of "studies", "grants", and "research" where it's basically a huge gimme-gimme-gimme handout for colleges and highly-paid scientists.

No one will tell you this, but I tend to think some game departments raise the price on elk tags to corner a certain market and garner more money. They know that wealthy out-of-state hunters will pay huge sums of money for a tag and so that's who they aim at. If the tag fees for resident hunters is high, they're less likely to buy them and, thus, maybe this frees up more tags for the out-of-state market. This is the problem with running our governments like a private enterprise instead of the public service they're supposed to be.

  There's a number of people out there taking up the cause of pushing a living wage. These are people to learn from. We need to have tag and license fees that are predicated on the true income levels of hunters and not just prices set by bureaucrats out of touch with what Americans really take home in pay. I'd call it "Fair Fees" and use that as the bare bones to start an organization to empower hunters to organize and demand fees based off their income levels.

[Maxximusgrind]

Yes and the problems nothing new,remember the old stories of the $600 hammer?
 When I vote its simple-no new taxes,no bigger government ,and no new laws.with the only compromize being that if they learn to spend and account for my money more responsibly,I may agree to give them more.

[Tsalagi]

The $600 hammer came from the fact they were funneling that money into "black works" projects like Aurora and White Winter. And also it didn't hurt that retired military officers become executives for defense contractors and one hand washes the other.

[Maxximusgrind]

I agree,and when you add reduced access,wolves,and who people dont care about the rights of hunters because they dont hunt and dont see how it affects them,its hard to stay positive-but I will definately try

[Brian Krebs]

I think we all need to attend fish and game public meetings; and find out who is who; and help explain who is who.
 Here in Idaho; the price of non resident tags went up; and there were left over elk and deer tags after the seasons were over- and it used to be that tags were all sold out by April or even earlier.
 We residents could buy the non resident left over tags- but AT THE NON RESIDENT FEE.
 Anyone else notice as we make post here; our number of posts recorded- remains the same?    :confused:

[lonstand]

Hunting is a right. I think the higher cost of hunting is caused a lot by ourselves. When I was a youngster I used to get by on a lot smaller hunting budget--meaning less camo, less equipment/gps/optics, less expensive bows/arrows etc but still had fun and killed stuff.

[Sticks2117]

In this country if its a right its free if its a Privilege we pay for it. So therefore legelly it is a privilege. Because this year I will be paying around $100.00 to do it!!

[huntindad]

You pay for a license and tag not the right just as you pay for a gun or ammo to practice the right of gun ownership. Bill

[parick]

hunting is a right at least to me and if they ever try to take that away i will poach and they will turn me in to one angry person its not the goverments right to have control over us and tax the **** out of us what did we rebel against in the american revloution over taxation and they do that to us now with the hunting and fishing permits in ct at least all go up each year and dont even help wild life they just get thrown into the general fund so ass much as i hate to say this beacuse i love america f the goverment we need to stop the career congress men and have regular people who no what america needs in office

[freefeet]

If it's a right then you won't need permission or licence from the politicos, and it won't cost you any money other than the equipment you chose to hunt with.

Comparing buying bullets from your bullet maker to paying an tax set by some scumbag politico is beyond crass, to say the least.

And those who claim that they'll fight if the politicos take their right away only make themselves look like fools as they turn up every year to pay the government's lackeys their hard earned dollars to buy their "rights" back.  Yeah guys, great fight you put up as you give them your money.  They've taken your rights away already and now they're taking your money as well.  But if it helps your egos to pretend otherwise don't let me change that.    

Come live in England and see what "rights" you have.

[Tsalagi]

Freefeet, maybe you'd like to come over here and show us how it's done?   :rolleyes:  Let us know how you plan to deal with the Bradleys and M1 Abrams. Oh, and you might be pleased to know many of our state and county police departments now have tanks and APCs, too. See, unlike yours, our cops not only have guns, they have a LOT of guns. Oh, and tanks, as I just said.

See, nobody will fight because this country is too divided. The overlords keep the proles fighting amongst themselves over nonsensical wedge issues. It's two-party Kabuki theater. They have power because the people are all busy fighting one another over nonsense, usually involving things that are other peoples' personal business in the first place. People act like voting in one or the other will change things. Nope. It's just like song by The Who:

"Meet the new boss...same as the old boss..."

Oh, things could change. It just involves people seeing common interests rather than insisting everyone else be a carbon-copy of themselves.  

[huntindad]

Not sure where to start freefeet but I would guess it is no more or less "CRASS" for me to compare the price paid for ammo to tax than you to compare the price paid for shoes to a tax.


 I truly believe that hunting is a right and will never stop and it has nothing to do with ego it is who I am.They don't charge us to hunt they charge for a tag to validate the possession of a game animal and my proof to this is I am not required to have a license to hunt non-game animals such as coyotes and ground squirrels.


The statement that those who say they will fight if hunting is taken away only make themselves look like fools simply reinforces my belief that europeans must not understand U.S. citizens still to this day much the same as they did not in the past when they thought they could oppress them from overseas without retaliation.Every man I know that hunts would continue to do so after the govt. said we must stop. The only reason that people in this country have not rebelled over current problems is we have learned to pick our battles and the majority have it so good that the taxes and indiscretions of our govt. seem a small price to pay to justify a rebellion as we have so much to lose.

Oh and by the way the last I knew we still have a few more rights than those of you on the other side of the pond so we must be still fighting somewhat successfully. As far as taking our money (taxes) do they not tax you in England?

No, I won't be moving to England any time soon and cannot understand why anyone would leave here for any other country....

Oh and I almost forgot...          


Back at ya     :D

[Maxximusgrind]

Huntinddad,
  Is it true that you dont need a licence to hunt non game animals in Cali.?I'm prety sure you need a licence to hunt here,but will double check.
 This has been an enjoyable conversation and verry interesting points of view.thanks guys.
  Robert

[Tsalagi]

"Shoes are a tax on walking..."

These boots were made for walking. And that's just what they'll do. One of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you...

  I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. My apologies to Nancy Sinatra. Sorry, Freefeet, I couldn't help myself.  

[huntindad]

Maxximusgrind I think a license is required in CA and many states to hunt even non-game animals. What I meant to say is there is some states NV included where you are not.

My point being that people who say hunting is not a right often say a right is free and cannot be paid for or bought and the fact that any person pays for any tag in any state makes it true that hunting is not a right. I feel the opposite to be true if any man can hunt for free and without license and fees then hunting can be done legally and without license therefore it must be a right , a heavily regulated right just as gun ownership but a right nonetheless.Bill

[Last of the Breed]

Originally posted by GMMAT:
 

Whether we feel hunting is a right or privilege is immaterial in the eyes of the law.
 

Well said.

As a citizen of these United States of America, our "rights" are spelled out in our "Bill of Rights".  I don't see "hunting" listed.

I'm not saying it's specifically EXCLUDED, but it's not in the document.

If hunting was a "right", we'd have no restrictions on it.  We do (and plenty).  Privileges can be tightly regulated and, with little justification, taken away. "Rights" present greater obstacles to confiscation.

If something must be provided to us at the expense of someone else in order for us to have it, then it may be an entitlement, a privilage, or an act of charity – but it is not a “right”.

We're best served when we leave emotions out of such discussions. [/b]

"Find out just what people will quietly submit to, and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows.  The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress"
                   Frederick Douglas

[Maxximusgrind]

I guess I still dont understand the true point of the question,although the discussion has been verry interesting.
 I know that I have the right to own and carry a gun and that there is no law in my area against it-but I also know that if I strap on a sixshooter like the wild west and stroll around town long enough,there is a verry good possibility of ending up with six cops pointing their guns at me.Not for breaking a law,but because it doesnt seem normal and scared someone.It really doesnt matter that its my right-it is considered something that I shouldnt do
 I think that where I live hunting is considered a priveledge,but I am allowed to-as long as I follow the rules.I feel it should be my right,but I am allowed to do it

[Maxximusgrind]

Hey Huntindad,
 Please dont feel like I was in some way trying to pick apart your post or disrespect you because of my question.I realize that communicating this way makes it easy to loose alot in the translation,I was truly curious,so I appologise if it came across wrong.
 Robert