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Author Topic: How to stop access closures  (Read 4401 times)

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2009, 11:23:00 AM »
You are 100% correct, Brian. A problem we have here is that many of the out-of-state hunters don't care if they tear up the forest. They don't live here, so they don't care about the land, and they HAVE to fill that tag and get that RACK on the wall. Getting that RACK is the most important thing, no matter what it takes to do that. Dang, what happened to enjoying the wilderness, enjoying seeing the birds and hearing them sing, enjoying the smell of pine and the good Earth, and maybe going home with some meat if you're lucky?
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline huntindad

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2009, 05:30:00 PM »
Having hunted out of state in CO,ID,OR and NV I know there is a huge problem with destruction of habitat by ATV use and driving trucks off of designated routes and agree the solution is strict enforcement.I have always respected the laws of the respective state I was hunting in and try not to take it personally when very few if any of the local hunters return my wave when I pass them on the road as I know what they have seen by not only out of state but out of area hunters thrashing their hunting spot.I do not have an ATV partly because I hunt with my family of six and the price of that many ATVs would break me but also because I don't see a real advantage for my hunting style.I don't think closing all roads is the answer as it effects even the innocent just as it does when blanket statements about out of state hunters and treating people from out of town as if they are the cause when not all of them are.JMO.BILL
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Offline Tsalagi

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2009, 06:17:00 PM »
Bill, I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement about out-of-state hunters. To be sure, we have plenty of local yokels here tearing up the woods with ATVs. I used to hear them at work talking about "making rooster tails" after the rains muddied the roads. There's a big debate here over ATVs right now, because it's gotten so bad that the granola-n-tevas crowd has noticed the damage and they're not real happy about it. They're the politically active ones around here.

  There's talk about licensing and fees for ATVs. That's not a bad idea. Hunters and shooters have been paying an excise tax for wildlife conservation for years. I'd go a step further and do what some game-n-fish depts do. When they catch a poacher, they confiscate the firearms and many times the vehicle used. I'd say if an ATV is off a road and gets caught, then confiscate the ATV, trailer, and truck attached to the trailer. (Around here, the ATV has to stay on the dirt road, see, but don't.)

   Some people just don't know. Maybe part of the licensing should be like hunter's ed. Make them take a class and maybe at least a couple will be responsible. Maybe not; who knows?

   Some time back, there was a guy here who probably read a lot of Edward Abbey books and was stringing rope about chest-height to an ATV rider between trees. Some riders got clotheslined and they caught and arrested the guy. All the ATV crowd here were calling for the guy's head. But then it was pointed out the ropes weren't across ROADS and, therefore, it was the ATV riders that were breaking the law by riding off the road. The guy got off pretty lightly because since he wasn't stringing ropes acorss roads, it couldn't be proven he had actual intent of getting the ATVers (even though that's what he was doing.) I'm not defending what the guy did, but it was interesting how the pro-ATV crowd leaped into this and basically called the guy another incarnation of Attila the Hun and then it was pointed out, hey, he wasn't roping off roads---the ATV riders were breaking the law in a fashion the pro-ATV crowd claimed "Oh, we never do that!" Hmmm...they never do that? Then where do all those ATV tracks off the roads come from? I guess the elk here have funny feet?

  Some time back, some geniuses were chasing elk on ATVs right in sight of some campers. And these geniuses had the good sense to be wearing Mossy Oak or what-have-ye. So, the flurry of letters to the editor were all about "those kill-crazy hunters using ATVs to hunt elk by running them into the ground." Well, those dirtbags weren't anything I'd call a hunter. But this is a good reason why we really need to distance ourselves from these people.

  When I've talked to them person-to-person over tea of coffee, I have found that many people opposed to hunting aren't really against hunting as the way a responsible, ethical hunter hunts. Many of them will actually have a spark of admiration for traditional bowhunters. What they're against are these jerks out there on ATVs, tearing down roads, leaving trashed camps full of beer cans in the woods, and parking outside of a bar with a blood-splattered elk head hanging out the bed of a pickup. Because these clowns are so visible to the public (and the ethical hunter is such a "small footprint" person that is barely noticed), that's the impression the public gets of all hunters. That's how these goons are threatening the future of hunting.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline NorthernCaliforniaHunter

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2009, 07:12:00 PM »
Let's not forget that National Forest is NOT National Park or National Wilderness. It is property managed by the Department of Agriculture for forest products, cattle ranching, minerals, etc. It is NOT a park!
So... if the patrons using ATV's are doing damage to the resources then they HAVE to go. There is no legal language giving you a right to it. The roads were put in for access to the resources, nothing more, nothing less.
"...there are no words that can tell the hidden spirit of the wilderness, that can reveal its mystery, it's melancholy, and its charm." Theodore Roosevelt

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Offline NorthernCaliforniaHunter

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2009, 07:14:00 PM »
And yep, I know it sucks, but I'm grateful they haven't posted a guard at the trail head and said, "sorry, no access, no way."
"...there are no words that can tell the hidden spirit of the wilderness, that can reveal its mystery, it's melancholy, and its charm." Theodore Roosevelt

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Offline huntindad

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2009, 09:39:00 AM »
NorthernCaliforniaHunter is right and if I am correct the forest service meets and creates a 5 year management plan that works similar to a county board of supervisor meeting in which your voice can be heard but not necessarily heeded.I believe I read this in a CA. DFG newsletter once written by a warden who was tired of hearing all the complaints of closures (logging,access etc.)He went to the meetings as a hunter and it sounded pretty lonely for him.He said there was a handful of loggers there a few hunters and a hoard of anti-types.Luckily the forest service doesn't have any say in whether or not we can hunt only if we can access it because I think you all know where public land logging has gone.They also vote on controlled burns firewood harvest and the like.My part of the world is overgrown with brush and tan oak.Point is the antis know how to unite in force and divide us and get what they want.I wish I could say me and my friends go to these meetings but we don't.So when I say we need to put our best foot forward and become involved and vote I'm talking about me too.None of us are perfect but as hunters we need to try to stick together hard as it is.I am scared for what my kids face. Bill
The days spent hunting cannot be deducted from  the span of your life's time.

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2009, 10:50:00 AM »
I take the side of what is right. IMHO, the antis don't divide us so much as we have people that call themselves "hunters" who are just inconsiderate bums that then expect us to stick by them. These will be the same guys that try to intrude on archery season by claiming scoped crossbows are "archery". Or try to get archery season opened up to something called "HAM" (Handgun-Archery-Muzzleloader)where we'll get to compete with folks packing T/C Encores in .300WinMag and inline "muzzleloaders" with scopes.

I will go the extra mile to support hunting and hunters. What I won't do is support people that call themselves "hunters" that are putting black eyes on hunting. Those folks are the ones that are an embarrassment and a liability to hunting. We have to support ethical hunting, not everything under the sun calling itself "hunting" from canned hunts of near-captive animals to guys hunting from the backs of ATVs and what-not. Because if we support the things we know are wrong, we're sure to lose in the end. Those slob hunters will just shrug their shoulders, walk away, and find another hobby to disgrace. We'll be the ones hurting.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline huntindad

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2009, 01:05:00 AM »
Tsalagi I did not ask any of the fine people on this site to support slobs, I said hunters.I don't want to share my archery season with crossbow hunters or the woods with any of the slobs you describe.But be careful of the stand alone mentality as you have seen the slobs are probably the majority and you the minority and to some who aren't even in the slob category if one comes across as an elitist snob they are further isolated.I say use those slobs for their good (voting numbers,fund raising and such)and heavily chastise publicly for their many faults and then you are fighting in the manner that won the logging industry wars for the tree-huggers .They aligned even with the idiots who spiked trees endangering lives but publicly separated themselves from them.I hope I am wrong about what I think our future might be and I think if years ago the high road was encouraged and not the gold laden road of make it rich off of what you love that the "hunting" industry has turned into maybe we could take this back by total separation from the slobs but I fear its too late for that.I guess long story short is if some idiot wants to raise money and votes for what I cherish while being hanged for what I loath well that sounds like a win win situation to me.Remember the right side is a matter of perspective. Oh and leave a few roads open.JMO. Bill
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Offline Tsalagi

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2009, 03:50:00 PM »
I'll be honest, my friend. I won't give up my principles or ethics for political expediency. That's one of the major problems with the country today. I'd rather look myself in the mirror without hesitation. I won't stand with people doing things I know are wrong. It's not elitism, it's having a conscience.

I never supported clear-cut logging. I'm a conservationist. I believe we need managed logging and done wisely, it's good for forests. But, see, if some companies had their way, they'd cut every tree and leave nothing just to get rich quick. That's where the balance between environmentalism and the logging industry needs to come in. I don't call the environmentalists "tree huggers" because there's nothing wrong with loving Nature. I call many of them misled or uneducated because they go off on the deep end just as much as pro-logging people do.

  The truth is, many hunters and environmentalists actually have the same objectives. Now, it was said that the anti-hunters divide hunters. Quid pro quo, certain elements within the hunting crowd actually cause hunters to do things against thier own best interests. For example, seeing the enviromentalists as always "the enemy". The fact is, environmentalists have saved a number of places that would otherwise be lost to mining or logging. These places remain open for hunting as a result. Sorry to tell ya, but corporate business in this country doesn't care a fig about your hunting rights. They'll use hunters to cudgel at the "tree huggers", but they actually don't care if there's a single place left to hunt because they're strip mining it or clear cutting it. They can fly to Africa to hunt, you see. So, be aware that the "dividing" isn't a one-sided gig here. We need to remember that one of the major reasons Teddy Roosevelt saw to protect the environment was for people to have a place to hunt. So, it works against our own interests to support mining or logging just because the environmentalists don't.

  And if some environmentalists supported tree-spiking (a crime), does that make it right? Does that mean we, as hunters, then support poachers? No. People will respect ethics more than numbers. That tree-spiking set back the environmental movement by several years. If they hadn't resorted to that, they'd have probably acheived their objectives much earlier than they did. There is no other road to take besides the high road.

  Not trying to argue or criticize your points. Just offering my own views and enjoying the conversation. These are important topics and ones well worth discussion. We need to remember the Number One reason why hunting is under assault: It is how we are SEEN by the public.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline NorthernCaliforniaHunter

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2009, 07:06:00 PM »
VERY well said Tsalagi!
We need to remove emotion from the equation folks! The rules by which the Forest Service manages the land is codified. It may seem willy-nilly but involves untold meetings, public input and an effort to keep the Forest viable and profitable. If you want the real truth, it's about the bottom line.

The only way to effect change is to find common ground and build bridges. Formulate a list of reasons and proofs showing the benefits hunters provide National Forests and local businesses, understand the arguments from all perspectives, get well dressed and presentable, AND THEN SHOW UP WHEN PUBLIC INPUT IS REVIEWED!!

The "Anti's" are well funded and focused. They lobby hard and support candidates. I'd love to see a "Save the Hunter" fund but we're all too busy whining about road closures, a.t.v.'s and all the other ways we see ourselves as "victims". Make your case for the ways in which hunters will bring the Forest revenue, preserve it's long term interests and viability, and say what you've got to say in a cool and collected manner with respect for different opinions. Trust me, the anti's will be the ones left looking like the goons.
"...there are no words that can tell the hidden spirit of the wilderness, that can reveal its mystery, it's melancholy, and its charm." Theodore Roosevelt

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Offline mwmwmb

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2009, 08:53:00 PM »
Tsalagi is right about some key points.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Forest Service is not the the dept of Interior(Fish and wildlife, Park service, BLM etc.) they are the dept of Agriculture and the bottom line is making use of resources. If it wasnt for the environmentalists they would be just that, tree farms and resource mines.

As much as I disagree with the Sierra Club (we have battled them here about Prescribed Fire), they have helped to keep Forest service areas about more than just trees and such.

And I say this as a government Biologist. there are still many in the agencies that view me and other biologists as just in their way of harvesting trees.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2009, 12:08:00 AM »
One thing is that 1 ATV driven at 10 mph for 5 hours off road; creates 50 miles of what looks like a road to the next ATV rider; and thus the trails get longer- and go in deeper into the forest: than is reasonable.

 WE are conservationists. Aldo Leopold was the father of conservation in this country; and he was a bowhunter.

 WE are environmentalists; and WE seek to protect the wilds; while observing the ideology of conservation. ( the WISE use of our natural resources).

 Fact is; there is not an effort to stop those that are ruining things for everyone.

 Those people don't have to be hunters; they don't have to be men - by law in Idaho; a child can ride on forest service roads- without insurance or a license - no age requirement.

 Loggers for a long time- cut down ALL trees to replant with more trees.. which could be logged; and that included the yew tree; which was found to produce a successful treatment for many types of breast cancer.

 That was not conservation.

The forest service is supposed to be coming up with a new road plan next month. We shall see how that all goes over - it will be a nation-wide plan.

 Personally going to meetings is good; but calling your representatives is best. Because you can do that any day.  And I think demanding that those that misuse their off road vehicles be assigned points on their drivers licenses ( which could hurt real bad when it comes to paying for insurance) is appropriate and necessary.

 On a funny note MWMWMB - I used to work for NET television; and I met Bozo the clown.  Out of that paint and character- he was a down to earth nice guy. Which is not true of Carl Sagan right now    :biglaugh:
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Offline Tsalagi

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2009, 10:53:00 AM »
You're correct, Brian. And I agree; ATV misuse should be points against a driver's license. The whole ATV thing is getting way out of hand and tearing up even the existing roads seems to be an advertising talking point for these things.

We had a sad incident a while back here in Arizona where the two issues---thoughtless mining and ATV use---collided with terrible results. Some kids were riding an ATV off the dirt roads and fell down an abandoned mine shaft. One was killed. Ok, so the mine shaft was from the late 1800s-early 1900s back when they weren't required to fill them back in. But there's an example of what happens when you have a totally unregulated mining free-for-all. They left behind several thousand abandoned mines without a thought to people and animals falling into them since they're unmarked. Then on the other hand, we have these kids riding off the given roads. The dirt roads there don't have mine shafts in them. So, the parents are leading this charge to have every mine shaft in the state filled in or fenced off. Uh, excuse me, but what happened to teaching your kids some common sense, respect for Nature, and the law in riding the ATV? We don't have the money to fill in every mine shaft in this state. And there are hundreds that are on no existing map at all and the claims were never registered. But, no one stopped to say, hey, why were the kids riding the ATV off the roads? Hey parents, what, you just handed them the keys and said have at totally unsupervised? Would they do that with a car? They're both motor vehicles.

  Now the old mines are "historical" but they're gigantic blights on the landscape and many of the sites are full of cyanide and mercury that they used to extract the gold. This is a great example of what happens when mines are just allowed to do as they please. And here in Northern Arizona, we're still trying to recover from unrestricted logging that went on in the late 1800s-early 1900s. They went through and cut down huge swathes of Ponderosa pines and put out every fire that started. So, the ones that grew back were all spindly little pines growing too close together in "doghair thickets" that no natural fire was allowed to checkmate. They've spent the last few decades trying to clear those doghair thickets because the doghair thickets are what creates catastrophic wildfires and provides the "Perfect Storm" for bark beetles. In the end, the logging companies made the money and the taxpayers are footing the bill to clean up the mess. The same with the mines.

And most of the dirt roads in the forest here are old logging roads. They're not maintained. So it only takes three guys on ATVs to turn a dirt road into a giant mud bog that just gets bigger and bigger with rain, snow, freeze, thaw, and then snowmelt. And the whole time, more and more people are mudwomping through it with ATVs. After a while, the mud bog is quite a bit bigger than the width of the road and guys are coming on ATVs specifically to mudwomp in it. This is ugly. You find this all over the forest here. The forest service has closed some roads by dragging boulders across and putting up signs. Often, too late, because the damage is done and will take a hundred years or more to go away. Some ecosystems are very fragile and there are still ruts from wagons that passed in 1860 still very visible. When ATVs run over these ecosystems, those tracks will be there for at least a couple hundred years.

Massive public image problem is people see some ATVs with gun cases on them and go, "AHA! It's those darn hunters tearing up the woods with those!" And the users of the ATVs, hunters or no, don't care a fig for their own safety, so why should they care about the forest? We've had other kids killed on ATVs here and several adults, too. This within the past 4 years. Mostly due to a lack of proper training and people taking incredible risks, or handing these to kids like they're Tonka toys and not motor vehicles. Some people are riding these things drunk. Kids need to be strictly supervised with these. When this kind of thing is normal, then we can see how it is the woods are being ruined by these things. It's a total free-for-all and the woods suffer.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline huntindad

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2009, 09:11:00 PM »
This is why come to this site ,my initial reaction to disagreement to my opinion is to strike back but when I read and re-read peoples posts I must agree with all on some points actually most points. I do honestly respect every opinion on this topic as I know all of you deeply care about our environment and the game we pursue in it as do I. We are conservationists and we owe this respect to our environment the foes we face are the people who only take and destroy and those who want preservation of the game we hunt. I have always believed that their hearts are in the right place but the facts are not in support of their good intentions.Please know that I do not intend any disrespect to any on this site or even the tree-huggers this is what I will always refer to them as because I personally saw them doing just that a group hug of a giant redwood that they were trying to save. I wasn't speaking of all environmentalists when I spoke of tree-huggers just the extremists I was referring to in the statement.I think that our opinions on these issues are formed much by what we experience in our lives.I have never worked in the timber industry or owned an ATV but I do know that both used properly have their place.In the terrain I chase blacktails in I love clearcuts only behind burns for habitat but with both you need edge cover and diversity.I have seen too many closures in my life here not just closed gates but large tracts of land purchased by the government and closed to hunting and access.A local waterfowl area was closed this year after 25 years of being open to hunting and their response was it should have never been hunted in the first place.So when people say what someone else should or should not be able to do I tend to get defensive.Punish the abusers not the whole group! I have more times than I can count walked out an old logging road only to find an ATV at the end or worse walked in the wilderness only to see or hear an ATV in there too.But I cannot condemn the guy who is riding responsibly.What I meant by using these slobs for their numbers is that most of us probably belong to an organization that raises funds for the causes we believe in that has some of the slobs that we are talking about as members.Maybe even this site.This should not deter us from belonging to them as long as the org. openly and publicly condemns these activities I can look myself in the mirror readily, well as readily as any ugly man can.Bill
The days spent hunting cannot be deducted from  the span of your life's time.

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2009, 10:46:00 AM »
Yes, every organization has members that are complete dolts and/or scumbags. My only point is I wouldn't go along with an ATV riders advocacy group that was wanting my support to keep roads open or really anything else.

You know, we hunters pay an excise tax for wildlife every time we buy something related to hunting like firearms, ammo, bows, arrows. Every time an anti-hunter starts whining, we shouldn't spend all our time countering his argument. Instead, we should be lobbying for the same excise tax on all the goodies HE uses, like all that fancy Patagonia outdoor clothing, tents, sleeping bags, mountain bikes, hiking gear, skiing equipment, etc. Hikers, skiers, backpackers, and wildlife photographers all enjoy the wildlife we hunters pay for without chipping in a single penny. Most of the public doesn't know that. We need to get the word out. And also get the word out that if people are going to try and hammer us about hunting, we're going to lobby for THEM to start paying their fair share of this tax. So far, we haven't said anything about it because we're not generally the type to complain about it. But if these folks are going to make wildlife such an issue, then it's time they PAID for it. Watch how quickly support for the antis will dry up when all the people who use the outdoors but don't hunt will suddenly be paying a 14% excise tax on everything they buy---including the backpacking food and hiking shoes.

Another thing is, fight fire with fire. A local and very vocal anti writes into the online blog of our local paper here all the time. He was always advocating banning hunting on there. He's the typical stereotype; believes in cultural sensitivity, for example. Imagine his surprise when I got on and accused him of cultural imperialism because he wants to deprive me of part of my culture. I'm Native American and hunting is part of my peoples' culture. Suddenly, his support dried up and he became toxic. He coudn't defend himself without looking like what he's so adamantly against. He couldn't backpedal fast enough and that's when I went after him and pointed out that he's practicing a type of bigotry in other cases as well, trying to force people hunting for the pot in Appalachia to go hungry, for example. He lost the debate hugely and hasn't been back to say another word about it. I was polite the whole time, but used his own beliefs against him. And I truly believe what I told him anyway. And I think it applies to everyone, too. Hunting is part of our culture as human beings period.

  We probably should stop going about this as a "sport" issue and come at this from a cultural issue. No one can prove a "need" for sport, but people are very scared to get into a public debate with someone who says the thing you're trying to ban is part of his culture and can prove it. It's not hard to prove. Even most Europeans countries have some kind of hunting tradition that's been around for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Doing this, we don't need unsavory fellow travelers. We make the case for hunting as a cultural one.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline huntindad

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2009, 09:25:00 AM »
I agree fully on all points especially the tax!
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Offline mwmwmb

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2009, 11:06:00 PM »
huntingdad and tsalagi good stuff.

Brian    
Quote
On a funny note MWMWMB - I used to work for NET television; and I met Bozo the clown. Out of that paint and character- he was a down to earth nice guy. Which is not true of Carl Sagan right now  
???

the man is dead. maybe he is down IN earth?

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2009, 10:42:00 AM »
Actually, I think he's in orbit along with Timothy Leary, if I recall correctly.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline Paul WA

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2009, 12:30:00 PM »
Up where I live the DNR has not only gated everything but have dug trenches 10' deep across roads to keep ATV's out. Do I agree with the gates? Yes. ATV's are a small problem compared to low-lifes that think state owned wilderness is a good place to dump their trash, old cars, every kind of appliance you can name...PR
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Offline lonstand

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Re: How to stop access closures
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2010, 10:01:00 PM »
Yea, Its happening in North Dakota national grasslands too. Not necessarily a bad thing. Makes the road hunters work or go home.

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