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Author Topic: New York Crossbow Threat  (Read 6435 times)

Online Al Dente

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New York Crossbow Threat
« on: May 15, 2010, 03:03:00 PM »
There are cureently three Bills within the Environmental Conservation Committee that pertain to crossbow usage.

A924A/S6793 would give the DEC the authority to set the standard for the crossbow, and place it where they feel

A740/S2943 would allow disabled to hunt with a crossbow provided they submit their status (a doctor's note).  Just like what happened in PA!!  There are options, such as the Draw-Loc, which can be mounted legally with the Modified Archers Permit from the DEC.  The DEC does not promote the options, and they do not even have one to show!!!

A7100A/S2204A would create a Jr. Small/Big Game license and allow for crossbow use.  Youth can already hunt with a firearm or bow at age 14, so creating this license is redundant and is only there to sneak in the crossbow.

Contact the member os the Senate and Assembly Environmental Conservation Committee to oppose these Bills.

Visit the NYB webpage for details and contact information.

 www.newyorkbowhunters.com

Protect and preserve the Archery Season.  It should be for hand held, hand drawn bows.

All the best, Al Bottari
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Offline Stone Knife

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2010, 09:21:00 AM »
I don't understand why someone needs to be disabled to enjoy the outdoors. I don't want to be forced into hunting the way others want me too, and i don't want to force others to hunt the way I do. Live and let live.
Proverbs 12:27
The lazy do not roast any game,
but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt.


John 14:6

Offline No-sage

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2010, 08:52:00 AM »
Doesn't sound like a threat, sounds like additional hunting opportunity.

I would think that only anti-hunting organizations would see increased hunting opportunity as a threat.

Online Al Dente

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2010, 02:28:00 PM »
I do not think that I am an anti-hunter because I do not want a superior implement included into the archery season.  All that the DEC wants, is to place the crossbow into the archery season to gain the firearms hunters who will hunt with a crossbow.  No matter what avenue it takes, it all leads to the archery season, money to the DEC, and money to the crossbow manufacturers.
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Offline maxwell

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2010, 07:46:00 AM »
Amen Al-It's all about state revenue & taxes .  It's not a bow....

Offline J.Yates

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2010, 10:58:00 AM »
Thanks Al for the heads up.I'm a bowhunting safety instuctor and I forwarded this to a bunch of my fellow instructors.Also to my local NYFAB rep.I'll get some letters out!!

Mitch

Offline Jeremy

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 08:11:00 AM »
We've had the "disabled" crossbow permits in CT for a number of years during the regular archery season.  We've also just opend up our January archery season to crossbows.  The only guys I know who use them are unable to draw a bow.

Hunter numbers are down, yup, bowhunter numbers too.  Instead of trying to demonize the crossbow your efforts would be better placed in outreach and bow education programs.  Get more people shooting.
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Offline ron w

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 09:18:00 AM »
If someone feels he or she wants to hunt with a crossbow that's great. There should be a season that makes that happen,just not during the archery season. It is not archery equipment. Bows do not have stocks, built in triggers and scopes.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's there are few...So the most difficult thing is always to keep your beginner's mind...This is also the real secret of the arts: always be a beginner.  Shunryu Suzuki

Offline SteveB

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2010, 11:09:00 AM »
The horse left the barn years ago with what the modern compound has become.

Offline bbassi

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2010, 04:04:00 PM »
I got this link in the Email today. Seems the camel's nose is firmly under the tent. I'm not the least bit surprised given NY's fiscal emergency and the siren's call of even more license revenues.

 http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/politics/NYS-Senate-passes-crossbow-hunting-bill
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt.

Offline ishiwannabe

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 08:25:00 PM »
Yeah Brent, but from everything I can gather and read, it is only during existing gun seasons.

"The legislation approved today specifies that crossbows shall be authorized for any big game season when the shotgun or muzzle loader is permitted."

Although Im neither for or against it, I am happy to read that bow season will not be chaotic.
"I lost arrows and didnt even shoot at a rabbit" Charlie after the Island of Trees.
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 09:52:00 PM »
Just my .02 and please don't take offense, but think about the concept. I think the long term reality is that all states will legalize xbows in the next decade. It's just the future, like it or not.

But to counter that, a strategy for all states "bowhunter groups" may be to lobby for additional "traditional only dates". And not just trad bows, but join ranks with traditional muzzleloader groups too. Strength in numbers, since we don't have the numbers.

I realize NY tried this once and failed, but try again. And all states bowhunter groups should consider this option.

Perhaps a week prior to established archery seasons for a "trad bow/ML season" is the best alternative, given the almost certain outlook of xbows for all, everywhere, eventually. I say prior to established seasons vs after, since the weather is nicer and more youths and others with some casual interest may get involved.

Also in my opinion, the big future growth in trad archery is going to come from existing compound hunters bored with the compound, not from the youths of existing trad shooters. A special season just for trad bows may make many finally make the leap. Just look at the numbers. It's probably at least 10:1 existing compound shooters, if not more. But many of the best are truely bored with what the compound offers. A special "trad season" may nudge many to finally do what they've wanted to do for a long time.

To me, the reality of simply trying to stop xbows from regular seasons is a long term exercise in futility. We can't bargain for something once our chips are lost.

If xbows are to be in pretty much all states established archery seasons, perhaps looking for something in return for the inevitable is the best option before those xbows become legal anyway?

States may be far more willing to give us a trad week prior to existing seasons.

My opinion is, sadly, we can fight that fight just trying to stop xbows, but we're going to lose everytime in the long run. Get something while the gettin's good.

Just my thoughts.

Offline SteveB

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 11:25:00 PM »
I'd love to see a recurve/lb, flintlock/prb only early season. Impact on the herd would be minimal at best. I would buy an extra tag.

Online Al Dente

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2010, 07:25:00 PM »
The crossbow is legal to use in only 14 states during archery season, not 49 as you are led to believe by those with a poisoned pen. The Bills that passed allow the crossbow to be used during Regular Firearms Season to hunt deer and bear, and the late MZ Season.  It also relaxes the restirctions to obtain a Modifed Archers Permit, this allows the use of adaptive equipment on your own bow.
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Offline SteveB

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2010, 07:59:00 PM »
It does make it easier for use of the drawloc - which advertises itself as a vertical crossbow. And most major compound manufacturers void their warrenty if it is added. Still need to be disabled to the point of using a breath tube activation for a crossbow permit.

Offline Mojostick

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2010, 02:59:00 PM »
Like it or not, xbows will eventually be coming to most every state just as surely as Social Security will become insolvent.

The point of "a xbow isn't a bow" isn't the point with state game agencies. The hunter demographics and deer densities/disease threat are what is driving xbows into more seasons. And hunter demographics and deer densities/disease threat numbers aren't good for keeping commonly accepted "regular" archery seasons "pure".

The bogeyman that shadowy insurance executives or shadowy xbow manufactures are setting policy in some smokefilled back room are a fantasy and hurtful to finding real life solutions. It's a sidetrack from some hunters that take us away from the reality, not towards how we deal with the future.

Deer hunter numbers are declining, with no increase envisioned. In fact, steeper declines are expected. Hunter average age is getting older and older, with the outlook of fewer and fewer young hunter replacement. Over 50% of deer hunters are age 41 or older. More and more people live in urban area's and more people are fragmenting woodlots with sub-rural sprawl. Both result in less hunting overall.

For example, a very hunter oriented state like Michigan has lost 22% of our deer hunters since 1998. Nationally, we lost over over 1,000,000 deer hunters since the 1990's.

The average work week has gone from roughly 40 hrs in the late 1960's-early 70's to roughly 50 hrs a week today.

Polls show that recreation requiring physical activity has declined in popularity. Reading was the #1 activity at 35% and watching TV was 2nd favorite at 21%.

Worse yet, more and more of todays youth consider texting their favorite activity. So much so, many kids don't even apply for drivers licenses when they turn 16. Why drive when the internet provides you with contact with all your friends? When I was a kid, everyone couldn't wait for the day they got their drivers license when they turned 16.

Couple that with deer management issues. Growing herds and now disease threat. As CWD creeps, look for states to do whatever possible to kill more deer. States that produce livestock will not tolerate large deer herds kept large to satisfy recreational deer hunters.

A big reason Michigan wanted to allow more xbows was because the office that dealt with handicap permit applications was getting overrun. As the babyboomers age, they were projecting that 30% of the bowhunters could be applying for a permit in future years. At that point, why not legalize them was part of the thinking.

In Michigan's first year with the xbow, we didn't lose bowhunting license sales as we have over the last decade, but instead we gained 20,000 in archery hunters. If you don't think other state game agencies losing hunters don't sit up at that news, one is inserting his ears into the sand, below sea level.

But with all this said, I'm not pro-xbow for all. However, I am a realist and pragmatist. And by being a realist, I say we bowhunters need to think about real ways to get something additional for us, instead of possibly losing it all.

Don't forget, if you don't like xbows, state game agencies could someday abolish separate archery seasons and may have all weapons "deer season". So instead of your neighbor using a xbow in October, in 10-15 years he may be sitting with his .300 Weatherby.

The poison pen comes in the form of those giving advice that we somehow win by using the old strategies that have usually been losers. Like with WWI trench warfare, after the first 3 waves of men all get mowed down before getting 10' of from the top of the wall on a charge, it's time to think of another plan instead of sending out yet another wave.

Not that "just say no" isn't noble, it is. But that strategy will result in many states having a degraded "regular" archery season and trad bowhunters will have gained nothing and have only lost.

Think in terms of the huge gains in muzzleloader season popularity. But in order to do so, one must recall that the first major production inline ML, the MK-85, only came about because states began creating special ML seasons and the number of hunters grew enough to support such a product. If states had never created special ML seasons, there'd be no production inlines and the number of hunters using flintlocks and hammer percussion rifles in regular firearms season would be a small fraction of those using trad bows in regular archery seasons.

It was special muzzleloader seasons that spurred that growth. If ML's can have special season dates, then why not trad bows?

Plain and simple, if one wants to increase participation in deer hunters using trad bows, then advocating for season "trad only" season dates is the best way to do that.

Now, I'm not so sure a lot of current trad bowhunters want a big new crop of bowhunters using trad gear. I think some are happy with the group they're used to. Obviously, I'm sure my suggestions anger some here.

I speak from proven results. I owned a successful fly fishing store in northern Michigan for over a decade. Using such counter-intuitive idea's brought us to be the 2nd biggest St. Croix rod dealer in the Midwest. Conventional thinking often gets only conventional results.

If you want to see trad bow participation jump in a state like Michigan, offer a 2 week long trad bow season in early September. Open it to any deer. (I'd also suggest allowing traditional sidelock muzzleloaders with patch and ball for antlerless deer only).

The result would be that many compound guys that always had interest in trad bows would buy one. But the bigger result would be, many would enjoy using trad bows so much in that special trad season, that they'd end up continuing to use trad bows once regular season came around.

Don't forget, today deer hunters hunt for fun and recreation. Trad bows are more fun. Most use compounds now because it's just what you do. Using a longbow never even dawns on the majority.

Sure trad bows require practice and many will gravitate back to the compound, but many others won't.

If we keep with conventional strategies, in 20 years, we'll end up with far less deer hunters and far more of those left using xbows.


Below is a good read and should worry everyone...

Expert: Decline in hunting numbers real concern

Hunters have been the backbone of the conservation movement in the United States.

But hunting numbers are on the decline.

Robert Holsman, associate professor of wildlife at UW-Stevens Point, says that while the decline is a unquestionably a concern to hunters, to some, the relevant question is: "So what?"

"We all ought to be concerned about it because hunters have carried the mantle of conservation in this country," Holsman said. "It isn't just that they are representing their self-interests, but hunting promotes conservation and an environmental concern. We need to do things that maintain that link."

It is easy for skeptics to view the concern as self-serving, since a variety of entities -- state and federal government agencies, foundations and manufacturers, for instance - benefit financially from such an arrangement.

"But, the bottom line is that it is about maintaining that important link to stewardship," Holsman said.

Make no mistake, hunters have funded the nation's conservation programs. License money and special stamps fund wildlife management, law enforcement and research programs, and help buy wetlands and adjacent nesting habitat used by all types of wildlife.

The federal excise taxes on sporting arms and ammunition fund state wildlife management and research programs.

Hunters such as such as Teddy Roosevelt, J.N. "Ding" Darling, and Aldo Leopold have been stalwarts of the conservation movement.

Yet, hunter numbers are declining.

"If this decline would be a wildlife species, we'd be asking the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to put it on the Endangered Species list," Holsman said recently.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service reports show there were 19.1 million hunters in 1975. That number declined to 12.5 million in 2006 and by 2025 the number is projected to be 9.1 million.

Nationally the participation rate in hunting is about 1 out of every 20 people. The largest declines by state include Rhode Island (59 percent), California (38 percent) and Iowa (26 percent), the report said.

From 2001 to 2006, the number of small game hunters is down 12 percent in the U.S. and migratory bird hunters are down 22 percent. This is relevant because small game hunting is often the avenue of introduction for many lifelong hunters.

In Wisconsin, according to hunting license sales, about 92 percent of hunters pursue deer, 32 percent stalk small game, 22 percent await wild turkey and 11 percent eye migratory birds. Wisconsin ranked fifth in the sale of hunting licenses in 2005 (with 713,610 licenses sold) behind Texas and Pennsylvania (1 million each) and Michigan (789,244).

Holsman said explanations for the decline in license sales normally include increasing urbanization, demographic changes (people getting older), barriers (especially access to private land) and competition from other forms of entertainment/recreation.

The sleeping giant here is competition. People say they just don't have the time -- heck, they don't have any less time than they ever did, but people just choose to utilize it differently these days.

Holsman hopes it's just a lack of awareness and opportunity.

"We must be more inclusive. It is the right thing to do and we must make hunting more relevant to more people," he said.

Offline crotch horn

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2010, 11:14:00 AM »
This is my take on it & it may make some of you unhappy. So be it. I love hunting & hope to continue until my last days. I was a wheelie hunter & changed to trad in 2007 because I wanted the extra challange. Fell in love with it and can't even think of bow hunting with anything else. In Dec. 08 had major shoulder surgery but back to shooting trad because I love it so much. I have had to lower draw weight to mid 50s though to save pain in the shoulder. Well, to all of you that are against the cross bow I say you are not anti-hunting but are selfish in ways. If I could not pull my bow back and hunted in PA with a xbow (legal in archery season) would I have been any less of a trad archer than you? No, but I would have still been able to get out there and enjoy myself. I am 43 and who knows when that injury will stop me from the love of trad bows, but when it does I don't want you telling me I am not worthy of enjoying bow season because I need more help from the equipment. Who cares as long as hunters are out there? I say the more choices the more hunters the better. If crossbows get more people out than have at it. I also realize that the deer are not my deer & if someone shoots it with more advanced gear than it was my choice to limit myself.
A trad only season would definitely be wlecomed but we don't have one now.

Offline kodiakkid

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2010, 08:30:00 PM »
Better take the threats seriously. Just read on the NC wildlife resources web site today that as of Aug. 1st 2010 crossbows are legal weapons anytime a regular bow is legal. We also lost a week of our archery season to the muzzleloader season. In my opinion crossbows are only a means for gun hunters to hunt the archery season. What hangs me up about the whole deal is in NC you must have a handgun permit to purchase a crossbow. Something is just not right about that picture. I don't have a problem with someone with a legitimate handicap using a crossbow but other than that I have no use for a crosbow. JMO
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Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2010, 08:50:00 PM »
crotch horn : I am sorry; but hunting with a crossbow is not bowhunting. Its just NOT the same thing.

 I have had a broken shoulder; and taped my longbow to my foot; and sat in a chair and shot a buck with one arm.

 Its about the flight of the arrow; not the blur of the bolt.

 I am wondering about the recent supreme court ruling and how that effects carrying arms in any season. When I am riding my horse on elk hunts; or packing in camp or out meat - I carry a handgun... to shoot my livestock if there is a wreck resulting in one of them breaking a leg.
 That is legal in Idaho.
But what does the new interpretation about the second amendment mean to states that say you cannot carry a pistol or gun in bow season; or a crossbow in archery season? It may be illegal to use one- but to have one in possession ?
 I see nothing on my license to hunt that states I am voluntarily or otherwise: giving up my right to keep and bear arms during a hunting season.
 And I have question about the right now of any state to do so....
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: New York Crossbow Threat
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2010, 09:39:00 PM »
State of Arizona forbids having a firearm on your person while bowhunting during a bowhunting season. But they don't care about having a Cold Steel Trailmaster!  

  :goldtooth:  

  If you can't have a handgun, a Trailmaster is the next best thing.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

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