New York Crossbow Threat

[crotch horn]

Brian,
I never said I believe hunting with a crossbow is bow hunting. As a matter of fact I don't consider them bows at all. I do think the handicapped hunters out there should have the option. I commend you on your taking an animal with your injury but others can not. My point is...lets get everyone together no matter the weapon. A hunter is a hunter & we need to stand united.

[Brian Krebs]

Crotch Horn
 I have seen a girl with no arms shoot a bow efficiently; and a boy with one arm shoot a bow also- its all about what your trying to achieve- take Tred Barta's example.

 And very respectfully - no a hunter is not a hunter; and it will do us harm to have hunters stand united on some issues
 
 Take for instance 'proficiency testing'. Compound and crossbow people can shoot small groups with virtually no practice at 50 yards.
 I have been in rabid debates about proficiency testing where the compound people ( as they are the majority in a vote by 'bowhunters') want distances set at ranges that are not reasonable to the vast majority of trad bow shooters- and well beyond our expected and desired shot ranges.
 That is where standing together is a problem; where the rifle hunter-grab a bow and go hunting in bowhunting season hunters start making the rules about who can bowhunt and what the rules should be.
 We trad hunters could ~all~ vote 'no' on something integral to our traditional bowhunting and be defeated by a 10% 'yes' vote by crossbow and compound bow shooters.
 
 They like long shots- and the now promoter of his 'own' bow - Jim Shockey - states he really likes being able to shoot as well as the 'real experts' at long ranges. ( He mentioned Chuck Adams as one such expert).
 I really like Shockey - but he is NOT promoting what traditional bowhunters do. Now he practices it sometimes when hunting with whatever weapon- getting in close- but we are seeing more and more shots at 50 yards and further as proof of hunting prowess with a bow.

 Yes - I believe if all hunters can agree on something valuable to our existence - it can count.

 But we are a minority - and we used to be able to keep crossbows out the archery season. But now- well look what's happening.

[crotch horn]

A hunter IS a hunter. That doesn't mean they agree with everything you do but who says you are right & they are wrong. Welcome to NY where the numbers will always be against those of us that live upstate or believe in gun ownership. I used to hunt with a compound and it is not as easy to shoot bullseyes consistantly at 40-50 as you make it sound. Much easier than trad but not simple to be that good. I think the debate is more about the ethics of it all. We love the challenge while others may care more about the success. I mean no disrespect to anyone here but to me the more people out there with high hunting ethics the better. That does not include any of the "slob hunters" out there no matter the weapon. I think we all have run into those folks. I hunt with a rifle, shotgun, pistol, muzzle loader, & longbow. I enjoy the longbow the most by far but I will tell you I find it easier for me than my pistols. I also practice as much as possible with every weapon. The first thing my father taught me was you don't take a shot unless you know you can make a killing shot. That doesn't mean you will never miss because we are human. This is getting way to long and drifting way off topic so let me just say. I will not judge a hunter by the weapon they choose. I judge that hunter by how they respect the outdoors and those in it. Have a nice day to all.

[JCJ]

"This is getting way to long and drifting way off topic so let me just say. I will not judge a hunter by the weapon they choose. I judge that hunter by how they respect the outdoors and those in it."

Well said.

[Tsalagi]

Crotch Horn said:

"If I could not pull my bow back and hunted in PA with a xbow (legal in archery season) would I have been any less of a trad archer than you?"

The answer is yes. Traditional archery is a recurve or longbow. But there is a way I would say crossbows could kinda-sorta be called traditional. Make them to Medieval specs---no sights, no compounds. Like these:

 http://www.crossbows.net/

When I see crossbow hunters shooting those, I'll gladly state they're shooting a traditional crossbow.

I don't judge hunters by the weapons they choose, provided they hold to the spirit of a season and don't try getting the camel's nose under the tent. Crossbows in archery season and saying they're "bows" is like saying we should allow a 25mm Chain Gun into firearms season because it's a "gun".

[crotch horn]

No, I don't think crossbows are bows again for the record. I meant  am I less of a trad hunter in spirit not reality. I say no to less in spirit but yes to weapon. Hopefully none of us ever have to be in that position. My point ( and getting back on topic) is I don't consider it a threat to me personally. I respect you if you do. I am sorry if I offended anyone in any way.

[Brian Krebs]

Crotch Horn - the people that 'offend me' most: are those that don't make statements; and open themselves to debate.

 Your certainly not to be looked down upon by me or anyone else for what you are saying.

 You have every right to say what you believe; and we have no right to do anything other than make our swords sharper in the process of making yours sharper.

 I just saw a really nice guy on TV shoot a bison with a rifle. He made a responsible shot and killed the bison.

 Now that was not the last bison. But what if it was; and it had to be killed. What would be the way to do it?

 In my mind; shooting it with a gun would be a great insult. It might be a fitting end- in the sense that gunfire took massive numbers of bison to almost extinction ( yes I am aware of the politics etc involved).

 But if you had to choose the way it should die- which would be the way it would be done?

 Personally; I would think either stalking the bison with a Native American/traditional bow would be appropriate; or riding bareback on a horse and shooting it with the same bow.

 Hopefully the day will never come when the last bison exists.

 But with out a doubt- the last animal ~I~ will take hunting will come- and may have already.

 So - look at it from that perspective.

I am shooting a longbow; I make my arrows; and sharpen the heads; and practice - and if I can make another kill - I will not look back at it and regret it in anyway.

 My last bow kill was a whitetail doe at less than 20 yards; hit it through the heart and lungs. If the fickle finger of fate takes me- I will not have to look back and wish I hadn't tried using a crossbow to see what it was like; or a gun.

 I may not be the last bison; but I am the last me.

[Al Dente]

The poisoned pen I refer to is from outdoor writers who have gotten free hunts, free gear, and free God knows what else from manufacturers to promote their products.  They have a weekly forum to push the crossbow agenda.  They do not state facts, they play on people's emotions.  They try to envoke images of elderly, young, female, or disabled persons who long to hunt with a crossbow, but are denied their hunt because bowhunters do not want the superior implement to be used during the archery seasons.

It is the bowhunters who fought long and hard to gain respect and be able to bowhunt.  It is the bowhunters who spend countless hours practicing to ensure a quick, clean killing shot, at an average of 12 yards.  To place a machine, such as the PSE TAC 15, which the manufacturer boasts can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards is against everything that dedicated bowhunter has worked so hard for.

Only 14 states allow the crossbow to be used during any archery season.  They like to mislead the public by saying that the crossbow is legal in 48 states.  By the way, they should have always said 49, since the crossbow was legal to use in NY, by means of the Modified Crossbow Permit, through the DEC.  Now, it will be legal during the Regular Season, and the late MZ season.  But, this is not enough.  Already the crossbow folks are calling this "watered down", and not what they wanted.  It is what I have always said, they want the archery season, and they will not stop until they acheive their goal.  Now, maybe the legislators will see them for what they truly are, shameless snakeoil salesmen.  They exploit, they lie, they mislead, but the bowhunters are wrong.  We are called anti-hunters, elitists, selfish, and likened to animal rights terrorists.

I will do everything that I can to ensure that archery seasons are for archery tackle, and not for crossbows.

Top Shot recently had a episode where the teams had to compete in archery.  During the archery part, the marksmen did not fare too well.  But then during the elimination part, the two contestants had to shoot crossbows.  Bill Troubridge, who owns Excalibur crossbows was the "crossbow expert", who would assist the men.  "The hardest part about shooting a crossbow, is learning how to cock it the right way."  "You'll be fine, it's just like shooting a rifle."  Then the men took their lesson, and the first shot was a bullseye at 40 yards.  The marksman said: "This is more like it, it shoots a flatter trajectory."  Anyone can go to the History channel and watch the episode for themselves.  This is a manufacturer stating the ease of use, and that it is just like a rifle, and then you have two expert marksmen, who did horrible during the archery part, then excelled withing minutes at the crossbow part.

If game agencies wish to prostitute themselves, then they should just say so and not hide behind the guise of "hunter retention" and "new hunter introduction".

[Brian Krebs]

      for Al!
 
 Well said sir!

[SteveB]

the crossbow was legal to use in NY, by means of the Modified Crossbow Permit,

Only if the person is so disabled that they must use a breath tube to use it. I doubt they have issued 100 total - probably far less.

The poison pen is tool not limited to one side.

What NYS bowhunting group has a proposal out to put amz season in the middle of early bow? That is a true threat to our bowseason.

[Mojostick]

I would assume those of us who came from the compound ranks and gravitated to traditional bows for the added challenge probably have an overall different view of the issue than those who've never used compounds.

Having used a compound for years, I've personally been involved in the whole trend curve. I started with a Bear Polar LTD in 1978. Then we shot gloves and tabs, we shot instinctive and with a rubber flipper rest. Fast forward to todays super high tech compound world and it's night and day from the compound world of the 1970's.

I can't speak for all former compound shooters, but at least for me, I really don't see much difference in a modern high tech compound, with 80% letoff, drop away rest, glowing multiple pins, peep sights, machined releases with a string loop, etc., and an xbow. Put a modern compound rig on a table and spin it 90 degrees and it's nearly the same as a xbow.

Sure, you have to draw, but it's to the point where that's just a minor part of the whole deal anymore. With 80% letoff, you can draw and hold for as long as you need, if you want to do so.

I can take a guy that's never shot a bow in his life and get him shooting respectable groups at 15-20 yards in a half hour with a "loaded" compound setup.

In the grand scheme, compound rigs of today are closer relatives to xbows than they are traditional bows.

The technology genie is long out of the bottle.

If you don't think so, take a look at these...

       

     

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr2McOMJLgQ&feature=related

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03y2BarHcUs&feature=fvw

[Al Dente]

It is besides the point Steve, the crossbow was legal to use.  Regardless of a breath tube, it was still legal tackle if the applicant obtained the permit.  The number of permits issued is a direct result of the DEC not promoting it, or the Modified Archers Permit.  At every single sport show, there are at least a dozen guys who never heard of either one.  The DEC does not even own a Draw-Loc to use as a training device or as a visual aid.  NYB brought one to Albany a few years ago to show them.

The poisoned pen is limited to one side, when that side has a vast media outlet to spew its' biased views to the masses, week after week.

Regarding the joint NYB/NYSMLA proposal, this was in direct reponse to the DEC proposal several years ago.  The DEC wanted to stop the archery season two weeks after it began then start an early MZ season for 2 weeks, then start the archery season again.  NYB was the ONLY state org that stepped up and rallied against this.  The DEC backed off, but stated that it wanted to leave that 2 week window within the archery season for "future use".  Because of the years of lying, renegging, and failure to even reason on the part of the DEC, NYB and the NYSMLA decided on this last proposal.  It would be a natural progression of superior implements.

While we're on the topic of throwing stones, what state org got ALL of the bowhunters (not just their membership) the ability to use their DMAP's at the start of the archery season and not the first Monday after November 1st, as it was in the past?  What state org was able to stop the DEC from inserting the MZ into the archery season, again not just for its' membership, but for all of NYS's bowhunters?  What state org was able to get the Westchester county and Suffolk county archery season opened earlier, so that ALL bowhunters can enjoy the woods a little bit more?  What state org has sent over 1,000 young persons through their Youth Camps to obtain their Bowhunter Saftey certificates?  What state org has led the nation in getting the disabled and physically challenged bowhunter back into the woods using adaptive equipment?  Was it NYSCC? No.  Was it NYSCHA? No.  It was New York Bowhunters, Inc.  All volunteers, giving back, not being an armchair quarterback.

[SteveB]

Mojo - great posts. The horse has been out of the barn for nearly 40 years.

Al - out of respect for the forum here, I will not respond to an obviously biased veiw. If you wish to do it publically, pm me for a venue more suited.

[Al Dente]

There will be no PM Steve.  You are anti-NYB and take every opportunity to post your biased views and take shots at NYB.  I stand by NYB and all that it does to protect, preserve, and promote archery and bowhunting within NYS.

[SteveB]

And I will continue to protect, preserve, and promote archery and bowhunting within NYS- with open discussions and truth.

[thorn242]

That's why I like it here in OR....crossbows are illegal....no provisions.....so that makes how many states?

[Mr.Vic]

I been bow hunting since 1969 and have seen a lot of changes to the Bowhunting world as i'm sure a lot of you have. Since than it seems like hunters have been fighting each other on all levels. Bow this, Gun that, etc etc. Season changes, bag limits, and hunting methods and so a lot of energy has and is being wasted instead of working together towards a common goal. The “team approach” is an alien phenomenon to many hunters in these times more than ever. It has to be my way to hunt or nobody wins.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. Do we have the best interest of a nation of hunters at heart? Do we care? Are we all lovers of nature and the hunting way?  Then why do we fight each other every step of the way?
   Yes, there are many ways to reach a goal of bringing home the meat, but are we seeking the supreme welfare of all hunters? or are we more willing to fight among ourselfs for our own selfish methods of bringing home game?  Rather than work together towards a common goal for the good of hunting and all hunters, lets keep fighting. And while were fighting, lets drop our guard down for those agaisn't us to sneak in.
   Here a story,  A group of six hunters were trapped by happenstance in dark and bitter cold of the mountains. They finally got a fire started with their last match. Each man had a weapon. One a gun, one a compound, one a crossbow, one a muzzleloader, one a recurve and the last one a longbow.  As they sat huddled together in a very small cave freezing around a dying fire everything in sight was burnt up in the fire for various reasons.
   When one man suggested that they put their weapons in the fire, the gun hunter in the group proposed that they discuss who will put his weapon in the fire first. Then, the traditional hunter in group stated that the Gun hunter was out of order. As they discussed the order of who will put his weapon in the fire first no one was willing to contribute his weapon to keep the fire burning until morning.and even argued whose idea it was that they use their weapons to keep the fire burning to keep them warm, the fire died out.
With their weapons in their hands, the group froze to death.                                                                   “A nation where people fight each other will end in ruin. And a family of Hunters that fights will break up.”
Next time we feel like standing in opposition to progress, let us ask, “Is my action for the good of all or this is for my own selfish gain?” It is not rubber stamping everything, but let us choose our fights carefully. We must all go through a mental revolution, forsake all selfishness, and dedicate ourselves to the betterment of the nation. Hunt your way and allow some too hunt there way. For the end of it is near.
We must build for tomorrow and not “me first” for today. Will future generations come and praise us for what we build today? It is only through selfless devotion, unity and commitment to the betterment of all hunters will we be able to end our long decline and retake our rightful place among the progressive community of a nation.

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Please try to read this through with an open mind and think about the points and I'm sorry if anyone takes offense to this but here is the long and short of it.

The crossbow apeals to some people who currently do not bowhunt.  If the states don't add it to the archery season they will shorten your archery season to make a season for it.  Is it about money?  Yes.  The state needs to make more money and they will do it in the areas they need to.  If they don't sell more license they will raise the price of the current one.  Then everyone will want to complain about that.  No one is saying that you have to use a crossbow but they are wanting to attract more people to hunting.  Some people don't hunt because they don't shoot a bow well enough because they don't have time to practice and they don't gun hunt because of, well, the mad rush associated with gun season. And what of those who truly aren't phsically able to shoot a bow?  Do they not deserve the right to be in the woods during "your" archery season?  If this will attract more hunters then so be it.  

The problems associated with the crossbow are not caused by the crossbow, they're caused by lazy, sloppy hunters and you don't have to own a crossbow to be one of those.  As far as being a threat, how?  Crossbows have been legal in Ohio, during archery sesason, for as long as I've been hunting.  Our seasons have not gotten shorter and our yearly bag limit has increased from 1 deer of either sex to 1 of either sex and 5 antlerless.  Any effects on the health of the herd?  Everyone knows about Ohio whitetail.  

I don't use a crossbow myself but I don't condemn those who do and in my oppinion it's of an eliteist mindset to do so.  By the way it's an archery season not a "bow" season so technically the crossbow does fall into that equipment catagory.

If I have offended anyone I'm sorry but those are the facts of the matter.

[NYStickhunter]

Hunters are hunters. Better crossbows then wolves my friends. I would never use one or consider them ethical. What has the compound become?

[jim phenes]

I feel as though if NY does implement the crossbow season it may  get some youth involved in hunting, I know when your that age sometimes a crossbow might be more appealing to a sixteen year old kid, then after being in the field and experiencing the out doors  he may want to try other things like a recurve or long bow. I never wanted a recurve or stick bow when i was a kid i wanted a compound that is what all my buddies had, now i prefer shooting traditionaly. my point is lets give it a shot!