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Author Topic: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan  (Read 3471 times)

Offline Redeye

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A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« on: June 25, 2010, 09:52:00 PM »
http://detnews.com/article/20100624/SPORTS07/6240390/1435/sports07/Michigan-likely-to-put-crossbow-on-equal-footing-with-bowhunting-for-deer  

detnews.com

June 24, 2010     http://detnews.com/article/20100624/SPORTS07/6240390  

Michigan likely to put crossbow on equal footing with bowhunting for deer

DAVE SPRATT
Special to The Detroit News

If you've been watching the crossbow situation in Michigan and wonder what comes next, you needn't wonder much longer. It's a virtual certainty that by the time the sun rises on Michigan's archery deer season on Oct. 1, crossbows will be fully recognized as archery equipment.

That means no partial seasons, no disability requirements, broader age limits. About the only question on the table is whether hunters under age 50 will be able to use them in the Upper Peninsula.

Michigan's Wildlife Division has sent three proposals for the Natural Resources Commission to consider. One would keep crossbow regulations as they are, with a three-year trial period in which crossbows are legal for ages 12 and up in the southern Lower Peninsula and legal for anyone age 50 and up during the early archery season (Oct. 1-Nov. 14).

Don't bet on that proposal getting more than a cursory sniff: One wildlife official called it "not a live option." And forget the three-year trial period. Crossbow sales were huge last year, participation in the archery season was up 7 percent and the statewide archery harvest went up 10.5 percent statewide and 19 percent in the southern Lower Peninsula where the herd is the biggest. State officials have seen enough.

"Two commission meetings ago (Department of Natural Resources & Environment director) Becky Humphries said from her point of view, a crossbow was just another way of taking deer and a great opportunity for recruitment and retention," said Russ Mason, Michigan's Wildlife Division chief. "(Commissioner) John Madigan asked me if there was any biological reason for us not to expand crossbow use, and I told him there is not. This is purely a social issue."

The other two proposals going to the NRC would greatly expand crossbow hunting. One would make crossbow hunting legal statewide for anyone age 10 or older in all seasons. The second would do all that for the Lower Peninsula and hold the Upper Peninsula to status quo, allowing hunters age 50 or older to use a crossbow during the early archery season.

The NRC will hear the proposals on July 8 and is expected to make a final decision at its August meeting.

Last year's debate over whether to allow crossbow use got extremely heated at times. Traditional bowhunters argued that their sport requires a great deal of practice and they were reluctant to share their hard-earned archery season with hunters who may be just as proficient only because of superior weaponry.

"Bowhunting was put there for a challenge, and people who bowhunt accept the challenge," said Bruce Levey, president of Michigan Bowhunters, a group that opposed crossbow use during archery season. "Somebody that knows how to shoot a firearm can be proficient with a crossbow in minutes. One of our members bought a crossbow and within four shots he was dialed right in. That's not what archery is all about."

Crossbows aid recruitment, retention

But the magic words of wildlife management these days are "recruitment" and "retention." Hunters pay the bills, not only through license fees that hikers and birdwatchers don't pay, but also through excise taxes like Pittman-Robertson, which funnels money from the purchase of weapons, ammunition and other gear back into wildlife programs. So wildlife managers always are looking for ways to attract younger hunters and to keep older guys in the field.

Crossbows accomplish both those things, according to Mike Tonkovich, a biologist who runs Ohio's deer program. Crossbows are standard archery equipment in Ohio, where the weapon became legal in 1976. These days, nearly half of Ohio's deer hunters use crossbows, and to Tonkovich the weapon not only solves recruitment and retention issues, it also keeps pressure on a growing deer herd.

"We're expanding seasons, increasing bags to ridiculous levels, we're hunting backyards, we're offering incentives and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on processing subsidies to try and encourage the harvest of additional deer," Tonkovich told an audience at the Archery Trades Association meetings in December. "We're removing every regulation hurdle, every logjam possible to try and encourage hunter participation. About the only thing left is to harvest the deer for the hunter. And yet at the very same regulation meeting, we are resisting giving hunters a choice out of fear that we'll upset our traditional archers."

Numbers show crossbow's acceptance

Tonkovich points to a deer-harvest bell curve that shows the bulk of vertical bowhunters harvesting deer between the ages of 18 and 45. But the curve also shows a sizable number of deer killed by crossbow in the under-18 group and by those over 45.

And because archery seasons are longer and bowhunting can be done closer to home and in better weather, many hunters are more likely to participate, especially with the "proficiency in a box" that crossbow hunters can buy, Tonkovich said.

Jeff Kunkel, a deer hunter from Hillsdale, Mich., favors full inclusion of crossbows because of the way it helped his own children learn how to hunt. Because he lives so close to Ohio, where crossbows are legal and there's no minimum age requirement to hunt, his second son shot his first deer at age 9.

Kunkel said the crossbow gave his children a head start of 2-4 years on deer hunting that they wouldn't get under Michigan's existing law. They can learn about deer movement and hunting skills more comfortably in the early season, he said, and they don't need the strength required to draw a compound bow.

His son took those lessons and his crossbow and ran with them. Kunkel estimates Daniel, now 13, has killed 15 deer.

"He probably killed five deer with that thing from age 9-14," Kunkel said. "And he was able to hunt in October, so I was able to teach him some things about deer movement and learning better skills. The kid is prolific."

Levey argues that the crossbow isn't the solution to Michigan's deer-management problems. The biggest deer-density problems in Michigan are in the southern Lower Peninsula, where crossbows already are legal for everyone age 12 and up.

"The deer population boom that we have in the Southern Lower is basically due to hunter access, and they're looking at using crossbows to cure the overpopulation of deer," he said, "when in actuality all hunters need is to have better access to private ground. Private ground owners need to be more willing to let people harvest the deer. We certainly already had enough seasons to harvest deer."

Brian Schupbach, who owns Schupbach's Sporting Goods in Jackson, saw the sale of crossbows increase dramatically last year, especially among older hunters. But he said a lot of guys are buying crossbows simply because it's a different way to hunt.

"It's fun," he said. "It's just a different way of hunting. There's nothing bad about them. There's a misconception that it's a silent rifle, but it's not. It's just a fun tool to hunt with and it gives you a different experience. Most guys set up realistically with a crossbow like they're hunting with a regular bow. They want (the deer) in close and in tight and that's the fun of hunting with archery equipment."

Dave Spratt is editor of   http://www.greatnorthernoutdoors.net">http://www.greatnorthernoutdoors.net.   He can be reached at [email protected]">[email protected].
© Copyright 2010 The Detroit News. All rights reserved.
A seahorse isn't a horse, and a crossbow isn't a bow. - Pope & Young Club

Offline owlbait

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2010, 10:24:00 AM »
Get use to the taste. We don't have the numbers, money, or connections to make a difference anymore to the MDNRE. They have no desire to acknowledge history or tradition or dedication to archery.
Advice from The Buck:"Only little girls shoot spikers!"

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2010, 04:17:00 PM »
There is always it seems: a market for a cheap kill.
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Offline Redeye

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2010, 05:06:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by owlbait:
Get use to the taste. We don't have the numbers, money, or connections to make a difference anymore to the MDNRE. They have no desire to acknowledge history or tradition or dedication to archery.
It is because of bowhunter apathy that we have to deal with this plain and simple.
A seahorse isn't a horse, and a crossbow isn't a bow. - Pope & Young Club

Offline brinkwolf

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2010, 06:28:00 PM »
You know when I first started in Archery, componds were just coming around. I like everyone of my friends jumped on the band wagon and we got a lot of people interested in archery because of they were so easy to shoot. Then a few years back I got tired of all the bells and whislte and all the hype and in a giant leap backwards returned to traditional gear and never looked back. I just said to myself why shoot a compound when I might as well use a gun. So back to the simple stick and string I went. Now all these years later they want to lump crossbows in on us. I was going to get my brother-in law into archery but he said why learn to shoot a bow when they're about to make crossbows legal for everyone. Well hopefully I can change his mind once he see's how enjoyable traditional gear is. I'm taking a few bows with me next time I go to see him and see what he thinks.

Offline owlbait

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2010, 07:00:00 PM »
I disagree about bowhunter apathy. We just don't matter anymore to the MDNRE or the Legislation. Crossbow manufacturers have the money, and the MDNRE wants the money. I fought the fight, sent letters to ALL the NRC commissioners, the DNRE Director,and my Senator and Representative. It did Zero.
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Offline Redeye

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2010, 07:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by owlbait:
I disagree about bowhunter apathy. We just don't matter anymore to the MDNRE or the Legislation. Crossbow manufacturers have the money, and the MDNRE wants the money. I fought the fight, sent letters to ALL the NRC commissioners, the DNRE Director,and my Senator and Representative. It did Zero.
Simple fact is Owl not enough bowhunters cared to do what you and some others did(thank you).  The other side won the fight because there were more of them that cared to get political than there were of us.  They had the numbers,the juice and kicked our but all the way to Lansing.    :campfire:   Just sayin..............tm
A seahorse isn't a horse, and a crossbow isn't a bow. - Pope & Young Club

Offline Bonebuster

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2010, 09:20:00 PM »
The REALLY SCARY part is I stopped at TWO large retail stores well known here in Michigan, and played stupid. I asked how far the new crossbows were capable of killing deer.

The answers I was given were "easily accurate at sixty to seventy yards", and "DEADLY out to about seventy five yards".

It was obvious that both of the "professionals"
that answered my question(s) realized that they were baited in.

I wonder how many new "bowhunters" were fed this line of bulls***.

Offline Mojostick

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 01:56:00 PM »
I don't think it's apathy. I think at least half of the perfectly healthy "bowhunters" actually want xbows. From talking to several neighboring deer camps, it seems many who shot compounds for years are more than happy to purchase a xbow.

One side note, did anyone see the xbow laser bore sighter? I just thought a bore sighter for a "bow" was a little oxymoronic.

I always have been and still remain fine with xbows for any handicapped/injured folks (even temporary injuries of a serious nature) and even for all over age 65, but it is interesting to see healthy guys in their 30's and 40's already shooting super high tech compounds so easily embrace xbows.

Offline Redeye

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 04:51:00 PM »
Apathy has always played a major role.  If healthy "bowhunters" in their 30's and 40's embrace crossbows then I have doubts they really accepted the challenge to begin with.
A seahorse isn't a horse, and a crossbow isn't a bow. - Pope & Young Club

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 07:43:00 PM »
Crossbows are part and parcel of "season creep" where rifle hunters want to horn in on an extra season without putting in the "sweat equity" to do it the way it's supposed to be done. So they try to squeeze in as much technology into "primitive seasons" as they can. Witness inline muzzleloaders, for example. Some guys wanted to get in on muzzleloader season, but it was just too darn hard (in their eyes)to gain proficiency with a Hawken repro shooting round ball. Or even a Civil War Enfield repro shooting minie balls, for that matter. So, they came up with inline muzzleoaders and CHA-CHING, manufacturers cashed in and some lazy guys got to shoehorn a modern rifle into muzzleloader season.

 It's the same with crossbows. Excuse me, color me slow on the uptake, but how exactly does a compound crossbow that is fitted with a rifle scope qualify as a "bow"? It's more like a rifle which happens to shoot a longer bullet that has vanes on it.

  Now some of the crossbow advocates are going to claim that crossbowmen use the same archery skills as bowmen. And they're going to expect that no one has read the history of the Hundred Year War, too. Because we know from history that the reason the French used crossbowmen was that they took a lot less time to train than the longbowmen the English used. The skills of the English longbowmen were cultivated in training from childhood; it took years. I recall reading the French, and also the Genoese, could churn out a decent crossbowman within a couple months or less. And these were crossbows without scopes---as if that needed to be said. History proves that crossbows do not belong in archery season. Period.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline Redeye

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2010, 08:09:00 PM »
Very well stated Tsalagi.

Get ready for more states to follow the crossbow mantra because the same person that made the inline muzzy popular is now the owner of Horton Crossbow.

Unless bowhunters stand shoulder to shoulder and contact the decision makers in greater numbers than the crossbow shooters bowhunting season will end as we know it.

BTW they read this forum.
A seahorse isn't a horse, and a crossbow isn't a bow. - Pope & Young Club

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2010, 08:22:00 PM »
I think it's sad that the bagging of the animal has become almost an obsession more important than the total experience of the hunt. It's like, yeah, we all want to bring home the meat. But isn't HOW it's done just as important anymore?
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 03:36:00 AM »
I lived in Michigan when the crossbow people first tried to get them into bow season.

 We testified at the capitol building; and the finale was when someone pulled out a pistol crossbow- and shot at a target- with the bolt passing through the target: and leaving a hole in the capitol house wall.

 Crossbows were not legalized.

But since then; the ease of shooting the new ASMs (arrow shooting machines) in the form of compounds and cam bows and whatever they go by now- came into force.

 And I do mean force.

When the legislature or fish and game wants input about what should be legal in bow season; well the number of us 'traditional bow' shooters is just not there in enough numbers to counter-act the will of the ASM shooters.

 I watch hunting shows; and more and more and more; they shoot 'rage' broadheads; which seem to seldom pass all the way through an animal- so we see deer running off with an arrow sticking out of them pinwheeling as the deer runs.

 Thing is; over the years; the number one complaint I have heard from non trad bow shooters; to include rifle hunters: has always been " I see deer running all over with arrows sticking out of them" and " I find dead deer with arrows sticking out of them all the time".

 Well- I have challenged the truth about that to the mouths that spoke it. For instance a rifle hunter that says he finds dead deer with arrows in them. I ask where he hunts that there are no predators at all to eat the dead deer.
 I also point out that deer run through cover and break off arrows if they are sticking out.
 Deer also will bite and pull an arrow out.

But in all the over 40 years I have spent in the woods- I have never found a dead deer that had an arrow in it.
 So - I tend to 'win' the argument about - deer running around arrows sticking out of them.

 But now- now its becoming the 'thing' to film a deer with the arrow sticking out- and its the ASM people that are doing it.

 I hunt because of the challenge and the experience. I really want to kill a bear; or deer; or elk etc.
 But I do not measure my success at bowhunting by what I have taken. I measure it in the experience. Yes- I feel like I could have done more- even when I shoot a trophy or take home nothing.
 But I am out there for the time in the woods; the fields; the forests; the desert; and you cannot buy memories.

 Problem is; while we trad bowhunters stay to ourselves and let the other crowd be--- they are effecting our hunting time and opportunity.

 And the ASM people are leading the way for ALL of us- including the use of crossbows in bow season.

 I have never been a follower; and I am a pompous as$ when I lead. Most of us are loners; most of us would just prefer to not get involved because it requires a type of energy that does not happen in traditional archery.

 I think we need to be more involved. I think that people should understand that what we experience is not what the ASM people do.

 Right now trad bow shooters are not even a consideration by the 'elite bowhunters'. Even Jim Shockey shot an ASM on his muzzleloader show; and said the only way it was a challenge: was to shoot at animals further away.

 I hope these guys burn out and go onto something else; but it seems they are going to crossbows; and we are supposed to revere them for it.

 Russel Crowe said that he enjoyed practicing with his longbow for the movie 'Robinhood'; because the arrow 'swims to the target'. He said he loved the flight of the arrow.

 Kind of funny- Ishis last words were 'we will meet again in the flight of the arrow' - so there is the last Native American who knows the flight of the arrow; and a guy from no urge to hunt- who came to the same conclusion.

 Frankly - I don't like the concept of a arrow cutting a hole the size of a fist in an animal.
 I like the way my zwickey two blade goes through an animal - like a shaving cut; and it runs off to feed; or breed; or watch its back trail - like it has done its entire life when pursued.
 When it tips and falls; or lays down and dies - well I am certainly not the one yelling " I smoked him!".

 But you see- most people think that comment is 'what I am talkin about'.

 We seem as trad bowhunters to just do our thing and hold a steady course as all things happen around us.
 But it is costing us time afield; and making our relationship with nature seem like a stupid thing to do: when we could be shooting a Matthews....

 The more we go into the future; the more we lose; and that is not a responsible thing to do; or way to exist to the next generation.
 IMHO at least.......................
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline huntindad

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2010, 09:37:00 AM »
Very nice post Brian!

I feel that most of the people that really support crossbows are probably stand or blind hunters because it is an unwieldy tool when carried for spot and stalk, I don't have a point here I am just kinda thinking outloud with  a keyboard but I was just wondering to myself why it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with the mule deer and elk crowd.

I feel the disabled or elderly should be allowed if they cannot use a bow but I also realize that opens up many problems and issues and avenues of abuse.

Id I say great post Brian?!?!

I keep re-reading for something to highlight and give a +1 to but theres so much to agree with and very little if any I disagree with I will just say +1!!!

Bill
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2010, 01:09:00 PM »
"But in all the over 40 years I have spent in the woods- I have never found a dead deer that had an arrow in it."


Unfortunately, I cannot say the same. Michigan has 300,000 plus bowhunters and my property is in the heaviest hunted county in the state.

Since bowhunting has become very popular here starting in the late 1980's, I can't think of a year when we haven't seen arrow hit deer.

In fact, one firearms season a few years back, every deer we killed had an arrow in it from that previous archery season. All were high shoulder hits that looked like guys in treestands misjudged distance on deer almost under them.
 
But our situation is unique. With 300,000 bowhunters, many are mainly firearms hunters who sometimes use a bow.

I owned a sporting goods store in the area for over a decade. What I often saw is that too compound shooters treated pre-season practice like sighting in a rifle for firearms season. With a rifle, they bring it out 2 days before the season, shoot 4-5 rounds and assuming the scope is still on from last year, it goes back in the case until hunting time.

Sadly, what I saw and heard was too many guys bring their compounds out a week before season, or even the day before at camp, look thru the peep, line up the pin and shoot for 15 minutes, shoot tight groups at 15 yards on a 3d target and the bow goes back in the case. They're "ready" in their mind.
The fact that they're standing on the ground in a T shirt during that quick practice and will be sitting in a tree with possibly heavy clothing on while hunting doesn't dawn on them.

We all know that's not nearly enough for hunting situations. Not remotely close.

To make matters worse, baiting was a common practice in Michigan. Being that in heavy pressure area's, there could be 15 bowhunters per mile with multiple bait piles, it made deer nearly nocturnal. After the season wore on for a few weeks, deer hit the bait piles at last light. While after legal hours, the reality is guys still stay in their stands until dark.

So you have many, many guys that have hardly practiced on the ground, now they're in a tree and shooting in very low light. That equates to wounded deer.

I'm happy to report that since the bait ban, I haven't seen an arrow wounded deer. Not that some guys aren't illegally baiting, but it's on a smaller scale now.

I shot a compound for years. I have nothing against lots of guys who use compounds. There's many incredible bowhunters using compounds.

But given the gadgets and the sighting system, I'm afraid that too many compound guys expect the bow to do everything for them and then things go badly at the moment of truth.

One other point, I've noticed that guys who are mainly rifle hunters are more apt to both make poor shot selections and make poor tracking decisions.

Rifle hunters are perfectly fine with a solid shoulder shot. But with an arrow, unless you get into the vitals, that's often a wounding shot. Same with a neck shot. And if a liver or gut shot, rifle guys in Michigan often will take off after the deer immediately, otherwise there's a good chance another hunter will get there first and tag it. But with a bow hit, that's the absolute worst thing to do.

Anyhow, the experiences are obviously local and geographical. Most states don't have 300,000 bowhunters. In my area, there isn't even a 5 arce parcel that somebody doesn't hunt. On opening day of bow season, every property near my deer camp will have at least a few bowhunters there.

Now, remote places in the UP may not have a bowhunter for miles.

But given that many guys out on the woods with bows and arrows, often with a "better get my deer before someone else does" attitude, wounding happens more than it should.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2010, 02:22:00 PM »
That makes me sick.

 I left Michigan in 1985; went back later when baiting was legal; and it was gross.

 I am sorry that bowhunting took the direction it did; but again - the ones leading the way are the ones in number; the guys you have described so well in your entry.

 I am for an either/or tag.
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline Mojostick

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2010, 02:50:00 PM »
I don't want to paint all guys with a poor brush. Michigan has many, many ethical trad bowhunters, compound bowhunters, and yes, even xbow hunters.

But if you jam 300,000 bowhunters into any state, you're going to get some 50,000, at least, that really aren't nearly ready to be out there with any type of weapon in their hand.

The same is true with Michigan's firearm season. We have roughly 650,000-700,000 firearms hunters. Of those, there's probably something like 100,000 that you'd likely not want to be anywhere near come sunrise of the gun opener.

Not that they're bad guys, it's just that they don't handle weapons but maybe one or two days a year, if they see a buck, they'll get so excited that anything behind the deer won't be given a thought, etc.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2010, 03:07:00 PM »
Um yes - as a cop there; I remember a guy that climbed to the top of a really really big oak tree during gun season: to try and figure out where the deer were.
 Another hunter shot him - thinking the deer were hiding at the top of trees.

 brilliant.

I think Michigan's rifle hunters are the forth largest army on the planet    :rolleyes:
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline owlbait

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Re: A bitter pill--more crossbows in Michigan
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2010, 02:13:00 PM »
The new crossbow regs posted today! Full inclusion in archery and firearm seasons, age 10 and above, no speed limits. Only some minor restrictions in the U.P.  :(    :dunno:
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