ethical vs legal?

[stiknstringer]

I think that any weapon with a scope and a trigger should be labeled as a fire arm and should not be permitted during bow season. Just my 2 cents.

[Bonebuster]

Crossbows in regular archery season are/were/will ALWAYS be, a slap in the face to everyone out there who are REAL bowhunters!

Do crossbows shooters practice year around?
Personally, my observations crossbow shooters practice LESS than most firearms shooters.
There is nothing fun about shooting a crossbow for hunting practice. If you are strong enough to pull it to "cocked" position, then you can EASILY shoot a conventional bow. If not, then the hand crank turns shooting the thing into a JOB!

As far as I`m concerned, the way crossbows were jammed down the throats of true bowhunters everywhere, should be a wake up call for all of us. Our "lawmakers" have now been shown that they can force ANYTHING through that they want.

Baby steps.

[Tsalagi]

Bonebuster said:
"If not, then the hand crank turns shooting the thing into a JOB!"

You nailed it, sir!

[nutmeg]

As others have pointed out legal doesn't equal ethical. If crossguns are made legal in the bow season then one can hunt with one. Does that make it ethical to do so? That's up to the individual and society.
We all know that our fish and game Depts. exist largely through funds generated by taxes on hunting and fishing equipment as well as fees from licenses and permits.
Most crossgun hunters are gun hunters that want the extra season without the work and practice involved in learning to shoot a bow. Those hunters are buying archery tags or permits generating more money for the fish and game coffers. I'm afraid that they're here to stay and more and more states are going to allow them in the archery seasons. Sadly, money talks.(nut)

[Flying Dogg]

Quoted by WITHERSTICK

Further, while it would be nice in a perfect world, what's legal would be based upon what's ethical. But, too many selfish interests prevent that from happening. Thus, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is ethical.

This statement accurately answers the posted question. Very well said Kirk.

[Brian Krebs]

Ethical depends on the time in history.
 I was once told by a really famous bowhunter that the way to get a big buck is to find a high spot where the deer cross and they are back lighted by the moon.
 He said if you can see the rack- it has to be a good one.
 Hunting by natural light was then considered OK; and really - its natural light...but it is illegal to do so now.

 I got into bowhunting because I liked to see the arrow fly. I started with literally a stick and string- and some two fletch arrows and an Indian headdress- and my brother got the Roy Rogers guns.

 But I started hunting things- anything. As a city kid it was bugs and chipmunks and squirrels; although no mammals were killed or injured in the process.

 My mentor was a man that was into conservation; he was a hunter; and a speaker for hunting. He hunted with a gun; although once after an unsuccessful hunt for deer with a bow; he shot all his arrows at some grouse... and then the deer walked right up. But I could see how it was possible to take a deer with a bow.

 Then came movie trailers. My first movie seen without my parents taking me to the movies was 'the house on haunted hill' and ' the tingler'.
 In those days they showed one reel; then showed trailers of news and other interests while they got the second reel ready.

 I got to see Howard Hill and Fred Bear in action.

But - there was something missing; not in them; but in me. I was not perceiving what I was seeing.

 It took years of hunting with a gun; and great frustrations over hearing deer make noises; which I was ridiculed for suggesting; as the 'buck snort' was something related to eating beans.

 Then I saw on TV -Fred Bear shoot a grizzly bear over a dead caribou. He screwed up the first shot; and really acted like a country bumpkin.

 But then he shot the grizzly; and that flight of the arrow - I saw it connect him and the grizzly in a way that was like the brush of an artists stroke.

 I saw the connection for the first real time between man and nature.

 It was an artists action- I cannot draw a recognizable stick man- I can't throw a baseball; or toss a basketball or any feat of 'sport'.

 I could swim; but I would not compete. I could play football; but backed out when the coach insisted we learn how to break the knee of the apposing quarterback. I refused.
 I was chosen in high school gym class to be the goalie - two posts - no net.
 And this guy from the other team made a great shot that was in.
 The coach asked if it was in or out; and I said 'in' and both sides and the coach berated me.
 I quit 'sports' that day.

I hunted with my bow for food when I left home. I learned the value of the reusable arrow.
 In college I met a guy that asked me to go bowhunting for deer.
 I had gotten out of the service; lost my Ben Pearson recurve in that time.

 I did have a 1930s longbow my father used in military school as a child. I got good with it at ten yards; and was ready to take that shot.

 I had taken many deer with a rifle and shotgun; and practiced with my bow for months; and got good at ten yards; although my arrows were mismatched and my broadheads were sharp by my standard at the time; and dull by my standards now- and I am glad I did not connect with a deer that first trip.

 But I did get a shot at a deer; and it was very much slow motion; and I hit a tree the deer was standing behind.

 But I saw something I had never seen before- I saw in that shot just as artistic a shot as Fred Bear had ever made. The arc of the arrow; the way it stopped right at the deer ( although in a sapling) - but it was a connection that I could not get out of my mind.

 I still can't.

And I started mingling with Fred Bear; and other bowhunters.

And I read about Ishi.

His people all killed for their scalps; and his connection to the earth with his bow. He was the last 'wild indian' ; and he finally gave up; he turned himself into white mans world expecting to die: and did that in a way that really defined his understanding of white society- he turned himself into a slaughter house- naked.

 Pope and Young learned about his villages as he made reproductions in their museum. They gave him relics taken from slain members of his own tribe; including the basket his sister had made; and that he last seen her with.

 And through all that horror; for it had to be; he taught Pope and Young to hunt. He showed them respect for the wild beyond killing things.

 And in his last living statement; he said " we will meet again in the flight of the arrow".

 We have hunted as humans with bows that were not bent over saplings; but made from billets- for thousands upon thousands of years.

 And in its purest form- the concept that Ishi passed on was not to kill; but to be a part of nature. It took practice and observation and skill.

 Crossbow were ALWAYS a short cut to shooting arrows accurately. That was their point- that you did not have to practice to get good. It was a shortcut to hitting a target; and so are modern tech bows.

 And now a few of these tech hunters are saying that Ishi; and Fred Bear and Ben Pearson; and Howard Hill were merely " experimenters in bowhunting"  and that they are the result of all that experimenting.

 I think: not.

Fred Bear talked about the 'spirit of the wild' and he was talking about the connection passed down with his hand shake with Young; and Youngs handshake with Ishi.

 It was not about how many animals you could kill; it was about the adventure and the thrill of the hunt; and the thrill of the shot.

 It has always taken a longer to do that with a bow than with a gun. Where the hunt ends with a rifle; the hunt begins with a bow. I remember the average shot distance with a rifle for deer with a gun; and it was 55 yards.
 Now I see the bows of the tech world shooting way past that with confirmed confidence.  

 And cross'bows' take no skill beyond what you need with a bow- other than what to expect once you hit something.
 The 'professionals' use more and more modern equipment; and Pete Shepley says the best thing you can do as a bowhunter: is to keep up with the technology.

 You now can attach a range finder to you bow; and once the distance is determined you can pick your pin.

 That I argue is NOT bowhunting. It is bastardized bowhunting. It is taking a woman you love and replacing her with a whore. It works; but it lacks communication and a real connection with another person on a mental level. It is money taking the place of skill; and wisdom and understanding and compassion.

 I am opposed to the crossbows in archery season; and the use of the new high tech bows in archery season too -- for they admit and brag; they have taken the 'arch' out of 'archery'.

 Our weakness didn't help; but we were up against numbers of people that like money and shortcuts to 'success'.

 I don't want to share the woods making cow calls and elk bugles while rifle hunters are in the woods with me.

 And I don't want people that do not understand bowhunting to take over bowhunting; and saying that we trad bowhunters are just the past; the experimenters; the ill equipped for bowhunting as the 'pros' think we ought to be.

 Let them hunt in the rifle - as we call it the 'any weapon season'; and let them follow their horn porn to its conclusion.

 Just lets make sure we don't get pushed out in the process.

 Because we really run that risk...

[dbow]

It doesn't surprise me that crossbows are allowed in Oklahoma.  Hunter numbers are down due to laziness and this is another way to make hunting easier for the weekend warrior.  

It's not ethical when your primary weapon is your gear and not your experience in the field.  Just like the AR rifles, crossbows and modern compounds promote lazy hunting because they do not require hunters to actually hunt.  

I see it all the time with rifle hunters.  City folk sit at their desk all year and then once a year clean their gun and start shooting.  The same thing will happen with bow hunting now that crossbows are allowed.  They buy the gear they see on tv, and go hunting because it appears to be easy.

[Tsalagi]

Brian, that is one of the best things I've ever read. That should be published.

[Brian Krebs]

Thanks

[OkKeith]

It's not that big a deal. I think that after a year or two the crossbow folks will figure out that regardless of how much you spend on one, they are really not all that great of a hunting tool. They are VERY noisey.

I have a friend that works at a local sporting goods store. He said that when the new rule was posted, the things flew off the shelf. I have seen several folks shooting them at the archery range on my park. The Regional Game Biologist who is the advisor for my park, told me that tag sales for this year haven't moved off of the average for the last five years. Archery season starts this Friday. People may be buying them, but they either are putting down their compounds to use them or decided they are not going to hunt with them. So... not that many more hunters in the woods.

Crossbows are not going to sell all that many more licencesses or tags. Not around here anyway. I suppose the sales will generate more federal tax revenue which will be payed back to the states through the Wildlife Restoration Fund (Pittman-Robertson).

My Dad is considering buying one of the no scope, recurve models. I think that's good. It will get him back in the woods during bow season after a fifteen year absence because of a shoulder injury.

Just like metal riser bows, alum. and then carbon arrows (all of which some hunters claimed would ruin bow hunting) crossbows are here to stay. We can get over it, or let it eat us up.

Drive on.

OkKeith

[acadian archer]

crossbows are not bows but I would have no problem hunting with a xbow shooter, compounder or gun hunter if it's legal.I shoot what I want and I'll hunt with another hunter as long as it's ethical and legal.

My style of hunting may not be for everyone and I won't make them shoot a recurve if they don't want to.

We're all hunters but I am a bowhunter.

[droptine82]

Ethical? Yes. Legal? Yes.  Does it belong? NO.  Why is it that we find out about these things after they are a law.  Last year Oklahoma made a positive step and only allowed 2 bucks. Now they are going to only allow 2 bucks but I imagine that there will be more cripples and wounded bucks and does than ever before because I have been at Bass Pro in Tulsa and OKC and watched one after another file in to buy their undercover rifle.  They have to ask what arrows, how to cock it(it is not drawing it to me), and then they are off.  I have heard many people before it was legal say how cool it would be to hunt with a crossbow cause you can shoot deer with them at 100yds.  How insane is that?  Yes it is possible but unethical!    Oklahoma is only worried about the money, that is why I moved into Kansas where they shoot one buck and out of state draws a tag or buys leftovers if there are any.  I agree that if someone is disabled and cant draw a bow, they should have a special permit that allows the use of a crossbow.  It is not going to be more hunters that hurt Ok deer hunting.  IMO and it is only an opinion, the number of deer with BOLTS hopping around will increase because of unethical shots due to unrealistic expectations!  I hope everyone who hunts OK will write into the department or call and express their concerns!  To make it easier I have added the address.

ODWC
PO BOX 53465
OKC, OK 73152

[Tsalagi]

We'll probably see a number of injuries and fatalities from novice crossbow hunters who will:

1.) Walk around with a cocked and locked crossbow. Bolt falls out, they step on bolt, broadhead goes into calf all the way up.

2.) Try to cock crossbow by setting buttstock on ground and pushing string down---with bolt in the rail. Short-shuck it and bolt enters chest.

3.) Climb into treestand with cocked and locked crossbow. Drop it and fall themselves onto the bolt. Or drop it and it goes off and shoots them.

4.) Get careless with spare bolts, buy wrong quiver for them, other methods of ending up with bolt in thigh, abdomen, groin, elsewhere...

5.) Fail to realize shorter bolts mean the broadhead is that much closer to you. Get cut, stabbed, or otherwise severely injured.

  People fail to realize that this is a weapon that could penetrate the plate armor of a knight. This is a weapon developed predominantly as a military weapon. They'll fail to respect this weapon, and they'll get hurt or killed. Yeah, the owner's manual for these weapons will warn them. But they won't read that. They'll think they can shoot the thing because "...it looks so easy." Yeah, well, "easy" kills more people than hard, for the most part. I might be wrong and hope I am because I don't want to see anyone hurt or killed. But I just don't see this going well. Too many nabobs.

[SveinD]

Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
Legal is applied by the state.  Ethical is applied by the individual.  If a person chooses to hunt with a crossbow where legal then for them it is ethical.

 

Actually, I don't agree with you there. Because this would mean that if a man lived in a country where he was allowed to beat his wife, it would not be unethical to do so.  
But enough ranting  :p

What I started wondering when reading the first post, why is it unethical to shoot the crossbow?
I thought the were efficient, and as good, if not better than bows! (Accuracy/penetration/range -wise)

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

A crossbow only season was mentioned earlier.  Just out of curiosity, where do you think they'll take that time from?  Most likely the only time they can, archery season.  Just go with it, they've been legal in Ohio for longer than I can remember and like I've said a thousand times, it's not the gloom and doom you all think it is.  You don't believe me?  Just look at some of the deer that are taken in Ohio every year.  So we obviously have a healthy population.  People talk about how long our archery season is.  So it obviously hasn't affected it in any way.  What I'm saying is, although I don't use them and really don't agree with them for healthy able bodied people, get off your pedistals and let people hunt with what they want.

By the way, an idiot that falls on his own arrows and shoots himself in the face is still an idiot.  the crossbow won't make them that way, they'd still be an idiot that would get hurt even if they carried trad gear.

[SteveB]

We'll probably see a number of injuries and fatalities from novice crossbow hunters who will:

Several states have legalized them in the past few years and 1000's have been sold to new crossbow hunters. If your fear is correct, it must be happening and there must be stats out there showing it to be true. Perhaps you can find them for us?

[Don Stokes]

I helped my buddy, who has severe tendon problems in his arm, sight in his new crossbow the other day. At 30 yards it easily shot 3" groups, but sounded like an air-powered nail gun when shot. A couple of days later he shot a doe at 25 yards, got a complete chest pass-through, and the deer went down very quickly.

It was my first experience with a crossbow, and my impression is that it's just a poor substitute for a gun. It may be archery, but it's definitely not bow shooting in the normal sense. At least my buddy didn't have to stay home.

[Tsalagi]

It's hard to find stats on crossbow injuries because most are reported (if at all) as "hunting accidents" and they fail to give accurate info on the weapon involved.

[SteveB]

So has the hunting accident rate showed any sudden jump in the newly approved states?

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Originally posted by SteveB:
So has the hunting accident rate showed any sudden jump in the newly approved states?

This is a good question but I'm afraid that if the accidents are only listed as hunting accidents then you'll get a false sense of what's going on.  If there are more hunters in the woods the accident rates will rise regardless of the weapons used, it's the law of averages.

If they're only listed as hunting accidents then who's to say that a tree step couldn't have pulled out and the guy fell out of a tree?  

Maybe if the accidents aren't specificly listed the people getting hurt may not be crossbow hunters at all.       Maybe a crossbow hunter has never had an accident.