INFO: Trad Archery for Bowhunters



Author Topic: How have land leases affected hunting?  (Read 10143 times)

Offline -Achilles-

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 184
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2010, 12:09:00 PM »
um again..."And hunter numbers continue to decline this year.....yaddayaddayadda " on the 6 oclock news

When hunting is against the law in 100 or 150 years maybe you'll get it.

Quit saying "your land".You don't own it.

Offline rascal

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 402
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2010, 02:20:00 PM »
You advocate trespassing on private land in a couple different statements and you say that a land owner doesnt own his land?  You and I obviously dont share the same ethics or respect for the law or concept of ownership.  If you dont wanna own your land or possessions Im sure some neighbor will plant crops on your property and park his equipment there as well, as for most of us we control what we LEGALLY own.

You might want to check out some more obvious causes of declining hunter numbers by the way, ever hear of urbanization, xbox, girls?  Kids dont just naturally fall into hunting as a sport these days because many of their parents arent hunters and they are never introduced into it.  I dont think advocating trespassing as a way to introduce a new comer to this sport is a direction that most honest hunters would want to take.  If you teach no respect for the laws governing society why stop there, who do they think they are telling us hunters there are bag limits and seasons anyhow?  In your world I may not own my land but I can assure you that the law and the rest of polite society agrees I do and trespassing on MY LAND or MY LEASE will get your butt in trouble.  I make every effort to get others involved in hunting, trad and otherwise, but I absolutely will not tolerate breaking the law.  I personally teach respect for law as a minimum requirement and encourage ethical and moral standards that are even higher.  If you advocate trespassing to hunt how about stealing a deer someone else shot, or shooting them at night with a spot light out of the bed of the truck?  Its all the same to me if you are breaking the law you are a criminal.  Im LEGALLY maintaining MY LEASE and owning MY LAND check with a lawyer they may know about this land ownership theory and legal lease concept.  Might also want to check to see if this trespassing thing is above the law as well.

"When hunting is against the law in 100 or 150 years maybe you'll get it."

When it is illegal because of criminal activities such as trespassing that have pissed off enough land owners "maybe you'll get it".  

Teaching the next generation of hunters how to do it illegally is not the answer to bolstering hunter numbers.
Hunt fair, hunt hard, no regrets.

Offline Mojostick

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1364
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2010, 02:36:00 PM »
When property tax time comes, I'm 100% certain that it's "my land" and so is the government, since they send me the entire bill.

Offline 2 Barrels

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2010, 04:19:00 PM »
What happens if we all say no to leasing?
Never trust a bald man with a pony tail.If he's not honest with himself.He wont be honest with you.

Offline 2 Barrels

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2010, 04:21:00 PM »
Or food plots or trail cams or four wheelers or baiting? Then what happens?
Never trust a bald man with a pony tail.If he's not honest with himself.He wont be honest with you.

Offline 2 Barrels

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2010, 04:27:00 PM »
Or paying to hunt with a outfitter that lease their properties?I think if as a goup we say no to all of it it doesnt survive.And how many guy that scratch and save their pennys to pay for a lease belong to state or national orginazations that protect all our rights as hunters?
Never trust a bald man with a pony tail.If he's not honest with himself.He wont be honest with you.

Offline -Achilles-

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 184
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2010, 06:01:00 PM »
No one owns land in american except maybe some small parts in texas,nevada.

Taxes=Another word for rent.

You don't even own your car out right.The bank is co owner of your car.

Offline Mojostick

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1364
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2010, 01:50:00 PM »
I pay cash for trucks. I own my land too, the Texas special forces op's flew in the deed on a black helicopter.    :p

Offline Brian Halbleib

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 613
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2010, 02:57:00 PM »
I've helped a friend out with covering taxes in exchange for hunting privileges but I've never leased per say. With that being said, I'm in favor of whatever the owner of the land deems is appropriate for his property.

I'm a blue collar guy and that excuse doesn't fly. I saved up some money and bought a small farm in Ohio because I got fed up with public hunting in Pennsylvania. I have blue collar friends who buy $50,000 pick up trucks every 3 years and they scratch their heads wondering how I bought a small farm in Ohio. My $11,000 used Suburban is long paid for.

It's all about priorities. I'm a bowhunter. I sold my fishing boat, have not played golf in years and I don't eat out very often. But I have a beautiful place to hunt that I try to keep improving for my friends and family.

Not that it's any business of ours what people do with their property but times are tough. A lot of folks are tapping into leasing their land for hunting so they can pay the bills. Taxes and upkeep on property are not free. I just don't get the entitlement mentality of folks today. I see people who live on an 1/8 acre buy their kid a quad and get mad when their kid gets picked up for trespassing. They don't understand why people are "so selfish" with their land and its "not hurting anything". Really? How about I come over to your house and help myself to your beer and television when you are at work?

-Brian

Offline 2 Barrels

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2010, 05:42:00 PM »
I'm sorry but in Ohio leaseing isnt about haveing a place to hunt.It's about a haveing a certin kinda place to hunt.If you cant find a place to hunt in Ohio you either have zero social skills or you cant stand the thought of shareing.A guy buying a place so he's got a place to hunt is diffrent.We would all like to do that.But it looks to me that most leases in Ohio are about trophy hunting.Thats where i have a problem.And i go back to my question what if we say no?
Never trust a bald man with a pony tail.If he's not honest with himself.He wont be honest with you.

Offline rascal

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 402
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2010, 08:23:00 PM »
I couldnt agree more with your statement that: It's about having a certian kind of place to hunt (versus just having a place to hunt).  I drive 4 hours to get to my lease and I have public land literally 200 yards from my front door. The public land is devoid of almost all deer from the beginning of youth season in mid-September to the end of late antlerless season in January.  I can tell you though that Ive heard of some real nice bucks taken there during the firearms season when they get pushed around from one piece of cover to the next.  For the most part it turns into 6 second encounters with a deer running frantically through the brush only to run into one person after the next that is all too happy to unload his or her shotgun in the general direction of said deer.  The human participants arent much better off than the deer for the most part and have no idea where the other people are.  Once a deer does get killed its a toss up who actually made the shot and there is a fair chance its gonna end up in an argument with guns present.  Three guys pointing at the extra butt hole in some ill fated deer claiming only they could have shot it at that angle and only their particular guage/gun/slug combo could have caused said hole.

Now as charming as that scenario sounds in my "certian kind of hunting" mentality I would like to spare my kids and wife and self from this less than sportsman like display.  And before you think that this is some made up story contrived to make a point trust me it is not I have first hand knowledge of this kind of hunting and this scenario.  You see I spent a good many years hunting public ground before "THE CHANGE", when people forgot manners and sportsmanship and stewardship of the land and the resources.  Truth is my hunting time was being spoiled by the bad behavior of others and for the first time I wasnt enjoying myself anymore.  I stopped hunting public land the day I had 3 bullets rip into the ground not 2 yards in front of my feet in an area that I was intimately familiar with and knew that the shots had to have been taken from a line of sight position.  In other words someone could clearly see me in full blaze orange against a snow covered back drop and wanted to send a message... I got it loud and clear.  It was only marginally better on private land open to just anyone.  People hunting my stands with the mentality that they had gotten there first, stealing my stands, messing up the place with no regard for the owners because they likely wouldnt come back anyhow.  Had a sweet gal take issue with me for NOT trespassing on some land they had sole permission to hunt after her husband let me know in no uncertian terms I was not to cross the property boundry with out his permission.  He let me know incidentally after crossing the private property I had sole permission to hunt to get to his stand.  You might wonder why the sweet gal took issue with me, well you see I had shot a deer that crossed their field and didnt run right after it.  Turns out I didnt have to because just before I was confronted they, without firing a single shot, proceeded to drag the deer I had just shot, that they knew I had just shot, out of the field with their tag on it.  I was less than thrilled to be taken to task for not wantonly trespassing by someone who had just tagged a deer they clearly knew I killed.  I even pointed out this minor ethical/moral/legal mistake and got not so much as an OOPS out of her.

Now we could all say no and wish on a star and blow out candles  on our birthdays hoping to wake up 30 or 40 years ago when leasing was all but unheard of but I would say a better idea might be if we all started acting like our momma's would want us too... with manners and morals and common sense.  My kind of hunting does not involve putting my family in harms way because some goofball insists on shooting from the truck window at deer running across some open bit of ground simply to fill his tag.  Or people that would literally take a deer from someone else with nothing for proof but the fact that they emptied their gun at it (or not) and one of my all time favorites is the good old empty the gun but the deer didnt fall so obviously I didnt hit it so why track it mentality.  Until there arent any rude, stupid and morally deficient folks out there posing as hunters stealing my stands, harassing my family or worse putting my loved ones at risk I think Ill just keep my lease.

My leasing absolutey affects hunting, mostly mine and my families hunting in a positive fashion but it also affects others who could have put up the money and paid for access same as me.  Ive met a lot of those people who still insisted they had some sort of right and in fact were entitled to hunt there simply because the owner hadnt explicitly thrown them off.  Met most of them driving field edges in 4x4 trucks with guns hanging out windows as I politely informed them I was leasing this land and asked them to leave.  Charming fellows really and Im sure they feel the same about me.  

As for purchasing land to hunt I have a small issue with that, Im too darned poor you see.  Leasing affords me the liberty to hunt much more land than I could possibly afford without all the other complications of ownership.  Since all I really want to do is hunt the land its just financially much more responsible to use my limited resources to secure hunting rights via a lease contract I hold.
Hunt fair, hunt hard, no regrets.

Offline -Achilles-

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 184
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2010, 08:40:00 PM »
How did people ever pay the bills without leasing?Oh thats right THEY DID.

Offline rascal

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 402
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2010, 10:14:00 PM »
I do love the catchy one liners but I have offered up several legitimate reasons why I am in favor of leasing.  I agree it does affect hunting for myself and others but the fact remains the land I lease was closed off to hunting before my lease.  Oh people were there with the intent of taking game but they were not hunters they were trespassers and poachers and vandals.  I cant turn back the clock and frankly I dont care to anymore because it would simply be for the benefit of the slobs that drove me to leasing in the first place. The same slobs that caused the land owner to close off his land to hunting.  The same slobs that make the paper every season for their ill deeds and give every honest hunter a black eye in the process.  The same slobs that honest hunters could do without in their ranks.  It is regretable that hunter numbers are falling but they arent plummeting strictly due to leasing.  In fact I would wager that if you could procure factual numbers they would make up an  incredibly small percentage of the causes for waning hunter numbers.  I would also submit that they would be substantially off set  if not completely nullified by the number of new hunters who start out hunting on leases.  Simply because many leases allow for a certian number of school age children of a primary lease holder to hunt for free.  People who pay for leases and do habitat improvements in my experience show a level of commitment to the sport that tends to manifest itself by them bringing family members and friends into the sport the right way.  I dont see that same commitment in the people who feel entitled to hunt any place they please free of charge even if that means trespassing.  I dont have anything against people who get to hunt private property for free, I dont have anything against land owners who refuse to grant access for hunting.  Im glad I was able to open up several hundred acres to hunting for my family by compensating a land owner.  Im absolutely tickled that I bolstered hunter numbers by 3 boys and one wife and one friend (not to mention others who already hunted and perhaps continue to hunt due to my lease) and they all hunt my lease safely, legally and with the utmost respect for the sport I love.
Hunt fair, hunt hard, no regrets.

Offline Mojostick

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1364
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2010, 10:22:00 AM »
They did pay their bills? That's funny, 2 nearby small dairy farms recently sold off their herd and their land to get a "regular" job in town, because they couldn't make it anymore. Both farms were dairy farms since at least the 1940's.

Their kids all left to get city jobs because the small family dairy farm is almost impossible to keep afloat anymore.

I know one of the farmers well and he said he got up at 4:30am every morning to milk, rain or shine, 100 or -10 and at the end of the last few years, he made about $10-15K a year, after expenses and taxes. Instead he got a job in town at a local hotel, makes twice as much, works half as much and has full insurance benefits.

All this AFTER he had leased his land to hunters for the last 5 years.

Offline Buckeye Trad Hunter

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1096
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2010, 09:16:00 AM »
In case no one has noticed, people will trespass whether the land is privatly owned or leased, it's one in the same to a trespasser.  Besides, when you do catch a trespasser the law won't enforce it.

Offline Bonebuster

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3397
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #75 on: October 06, 2010, 09:03:00 PM »
It is as simple as this. If you can pay, it is not a problem. If you can`t, then it IS a problem.

I do not pay to hunt, except in my income taxes.
Until my kids college education is paid for, I do not have a single penny to pay for hunting rights. (and I firmly believe it is the right of every American to hunt)

Paying to get access to private land IS going to negatively affect hunting, in my opinion.

Some state auction tags for big game...same type of thing. Exclusion by reason of economics.

Offline bobman

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 195
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2011, 11:55:00 AM »
my opinion is that a man owns his land and should be able to post it if he wants, BUT he doesn't own the game animals on the land they are public property so he should not be able to lease it for hunting period.

Its just another form of market hunting.

I especially have problems with people " guides" that lease land they dont own for the express purpose a limiting access by the public to publicly owned game animals so they can make a business out of it. They are selling something they dont own and anywhere else that would be called stealing. I'll quit hunting before I'll ever lease or pay a guide for access.

Anyone that steals public property in this manner should be ineligable for taxpayer funded farm or ranch subsidies.

so post your land and keep it for yourselves thats fine, but dont sell hunting tradtions out to the higest bidders


JMO

Offline tecum-tha

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 613
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2011, 12:09:00 PM »
Leasing and limiting access to private land will affect hunting in a very bad way. Take a look to Europe, what leasing and other things did to hunting there. It is a rich mans sport, hunters are politically as unimportant as they can be and young hunters are in their mid 30ies or even older. The young generation is left out and will probably never pick up the sport. This will lead consequently to much less license sales.
I perfectly agree with bobman, that you can post your land, but not lease the hunting rights. Market hunting destroyed the game populations, sportmen invested a lot of money to put populations and habitat back up. Landowners, who receive any kind of subsidy(tax break, crp etc.) should not be allowed to lease hunting rights.
They then sell something which was financed by others. If they keep it for themselves, this is fine, but no monetary gains...

Offline Javi

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 704
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2011, 12:54:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tecum-tha:
Leasing and limiting access to private land will affect hunting in a very bad way. Take a look to Europe, what leasing and other things did to hunting there. It is a rich mans sport, hunters are politically as unimportant as they can be and young hunters are in their mid 30ies or even older. The young generation is left out and will probably never pick up the sport. This will lead consequently to much less license sales.
I perfectly agree with bobman, that you can post your land, but not lease the hunting rights. Market hunting destroyed the game populations, sportmen invested a lot of money to put populations and habitat back up. Landowners, who receive any kind of subsidy(tax break, crp etc.) should not be allowed to lease hunting rights.
They then sell something which was financed by others. If they keep it for themselves, this is fine, but no monetary gains...
Sure hasn't hurt hunting in Texas.. folks been selling trespassing rights here for the last 50 years or so.. The price has sure gone up over the years because of competition for the best ranches, but the concept is the same..  I can't (read that as won't) pay the going price for a spot on a ranch, I'd rather go pay my money to someone in Illinois, Nebraska,  or Kansas but there certainly isn't a shortage of folks willing to take my place in line..
Mike "Javi" Cooper
TBoT Member

Offline Kevin Dill

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1471
Re: How have land leases affected hunting?
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2011, 09:24:00 PM »
This has been beat to death, and it always comes down to a matter of opinion.

There is no statistical proof that leasing harms hunting or hunters as a whole.

Some guys will b!tch and say it has cost them a hunting area. So have malls, roads, and landowner's relatives...but I don't hear anyone saying we must outlaw any of these.

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©