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Author Topic: Really?  (Read 3167 times)

Offline Rogue Hammer

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Really?
« on: September 15, 2010, 11:04:00 AM »
Now I read somthing interesting on another forum that really took my breath away.
A gentelman in Virginia wanted to make a practice hunt with his son over a food plot that they planted, so I am assuming this is private ground. Anyway he wanted to know if it was legal to take his bow get in camo and sit in the treestand with his son in a hunting like senario.

He also stated that no shots would be taken.

A huge response to his post was that it was illegal.
Really? because someone has the capability but not the intent its still illegal?
Here in Oregon I would have no problem dressing in what ever clothes i wanted and walking into the woods with what ever weapon I choose and never have a problem.

Is East and West so far divided that you are now guilty until proven innocent in the East?

Not trying to start a battle here just curious.
A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter has no gallery to applaud or disaprove of his conduct.    Aldo Leupold

Offline Mojostick

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Re: Really?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2010, 01:15:00 PM »
In Michigan, there's so much poaching going on right before the Nov. 15th firearms deer season, from guys sitting in their blinds before the opener, we have this rule below. And even then, I don't think it stops much.
When I owned my sporting goods store, lots of guys pulled into the parking lot at 10am on the opener with totally rigor mortis deer with sunken eyeballs. In my area, there's so much shooting right at dark the evening before opener, I wouldn't be suprised if 10% of the bucks "taken" on opener actually died the dusk before.

Nov. 10-14
It is unlawful to carry afield or transport any rifle (including rimfire) or shotgun if you have buckshot, slug, ball loads or cut shells.

Exception: You may transport a firearm to your deer camp or to a target range during this period if the firearm is properly transported (see Transporting - Carrying Firearms and Bows and Arrows).

A resident who holds a fur harvester license may carry a .22 caliber or smaller rimfire firearm while hunting furbearers or checking a trap line during the open season for hunting furbearers or trapping furbearing animals. You also may target-shoot on your own property provided there is no attempt to take game.

Offline rascal

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Re: Really?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2010, 02:50:00 PM »
Yup unfortunately I see a lot of less than believable situations occur just before season and during the youth season here as well.  In Iowa there is no age limit to when you can start your child on the youth deer season.  Each youth must be in the company of a licensed adult and they must use a legal method of hunting such as bow, shotgun or muzzle loader.  The smallest gun you can use to my knowledge is a 20 ga shooting slugs (no buckshot here) or a .45 cal muzzle loader I am not aware of weight restrictions on bows.  That being said when I see a sweet little 7 year old girl or boy who supposedly shot this monster buck in the photo looking like they could care less if they are there or not and some beaming adult holding a 12 ga shotgun I have serious suspicions as to who might have actually pulled the trigger.
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Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Really?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 03:29:00 PM »
Mojostick:
    I used to live in Michigan...
I am wondering if the Michigan law is in conflict with the new supreme court ruling about the 2nd amendment?

 Its strange to me that it has not been attacked that way. Is not skunk and coyote season; as well as wild pig hunting allowed during this time?

 When I hunted in Michigan I remember the rifle season; and the sunken eyed bucks hanging up in Marion Mi and other places for all to look at- on opening day.

 The joke back then was ' there was a guy who brought a buck into the taxidermist; and he had made a perfect shot on it- one bullet right between the eyes. Then he brought in a bear the next day that had been shot between the eyes - but its front paws were all shot up; and the taxidermist asked why he shot it in the paws- and the guy said ' I guess he didn't like the light in his eyes'.

 I remember whole mobile homes on telephone pole stilts over salt licks - guys inside watching tv and drinking cold beer from the fridge and waiting for a buck to appear at the salt.

 Its a shame.  Do keep in mind; the condition of the dead deers eyes can tell a court how long a deer has been dead.

 Personally; here I set up a deer stand before the season; and shoot blunt tips from it to see if there are any interfering twigs and such to trim away- no harm~no foul.

 Again I am kind of surprised that a law like that can coexist with the new supreme court ruling. Has it been tested that way?
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Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Really?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 03:31:00 PM »
The first anti-hunters were not vegans in skirts; they were rifle hunters objecting to bowhunting.

 Sounds like that forums thinking has some roots.
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline Al Dente

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Re: Really?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 06:50:00 PM »
It used to be that the last weekend of Bow season before the Regular(Firearms) season began, you would hear the shots.  "Just some guys sighting in before opener."  We all knew better, but then it became outrageous.  Now, the Bow season opener is like the Beirut.  On any Bow opener, from just before sunrise, to around 8:30AM, you will hear a barrage of no less than 75 shots being fired.  Now, that being said, any ethical hunter, taking his son or daughter to the stand before the season to get the feel of things is totally appropriate.  Even if he or she is taking some practice shots, as was stated above, still no problem.  It's the rotten apples that must beat their chest and drag their knuckles as they boast of what a great hunter they are.  Disgusting and despicable.  These are the same "hunters" who won't let their kid shoot their first deer because it's daddy's.  This is why we're in the situation we're miring in right now.
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Offline Tsalagi

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Re: Really?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 11:42:00 PM »
This state has a good cure for poachers. They lose their hunting rights, the weapons they're in possession of at the time, and also the vehicle they drove out in. Plus a fine.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline Rogue Hammer

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Re: Really?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 01:14:00 AM »
Tsalagi Oregon does the same thing, although every year some dipstick will do it anyway. I just cant imagine that what I consider a constitutional right can be infringed on by a state dnr. I mean since some moron drives 105mph down the freeway they dont expect everyone to give up their vehicle.
A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter has no gallery to applaud or disaprove of his conduct.    Aldo Leupold

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: Really?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 11:52:00 PM »
Actually, I wouldn't be heartbroken if people doing 105 MPH on the freeway (and also drunk drivers) had their vehicles confiscated. Driving a tow truck on police rotation and seeing what the outcomes of those two events looks like will do that to ya.
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline Fletcher

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Re: Really?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2010, 12:15:00 AM »
If this guy is in camo with his bow sitting in a treestand, any CPO is going to think he is hunting.  :dunno:    You don't have to shoot something to be hunting.  If he has a broadhead on the string, he's gonna get a ticket.  :nono:
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: Really?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2010, 11:44:00 AM »
No, the Michigan rule isn't in conflict with the 2nd Amendment because hunting is a priviledge you voluntarily accept, not a right. When you voluntarily buy a license and then enter the woods for the purpose of hunting, you choose to abide by the given rules if you chose to hunt. Nobody is making you hunt.
It's like driving an auto which is also a priviledge, not a right. If you chose to drink a case of beer in your lazy boy rocker on football saturday in the privacy of your own home, you go knock yourself out. But once you decide to slip behind the wheel of your truck, you're then under the rules of the priviledge that you voluntarily choose to accept. Again, nobody is forcing anyone to drive. You can walk, call a cab, take a bus, call a friend or simply stay home.

It's really the same here with the baiting ban that so many are in a huff over. Sure, it's legal to buy a truck load of carrots. Maybe someone really, really likes carrot juice? But once you decide to enter the woods for the purpose of hunting, you willing accept the rules if you want to participate. If you don't, nobody is making anybody hunt.

That's why the priviledge of driving or hunting can be so easily taken away and rights, like the right to bear arms, is so difficult to take away, despite the endless attempts coming from the left.

Some argue that hunting should be a right, not just a priviledge. But some thought needs to go into that line of thinking before making that leap. Be careful what you wish for.

By keeping hunting a priviledge, it acts as a mechanism to demand higher ethics from the masses of license buyers, since they know that that priviledge can be taken away for gross violations. If hunting were indeed a right, then removing that right from a repeat violator would be difficult. Not that true gross violators need a license or even bother with one, but the majority of hunters, who sometimes have minor violations, wish to keep those violations well below the threshold of something serious enough to warrant revoking of the priviledge to hunt. That may not be so with a right.

The same with drunk driving. If driving were a right, how do you take it away from repeat violators? A priviledge can be taken away for bad behavior.

I would argue that hunting remaining a priviledge would result in overall higher ethics from the masses compared to if hunting were a right granted in a state constitution. At least in "mass production" states like Michigan when on firearms opener, there's roughly 700,000 hunters armed with high powered firearms.

Offline owlbait

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Re: Really?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2010, 07:51:00 PM »
Take the bow, leave the arrows. No problem. Practice those scenarios in the backyard or at the range. I think even if your "stump" shooting in Michigan you have to have a hunting (small game) license. Then you would be legal to take those year round vermin while you were hunting.
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: Really?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2010, 07:59:00 PM »
If you also took the string off, then you'd likely be OK. Otherwise, a CO might be very suspicious that you have some arrows hidden somewhere.

In my personal opinion, hunting over a food plot is hard enough to do without spooking deer. Obviously, it's your choice. But I don't even suggest bowhunting over a food plot. I think you're better off set back 150 yards, or more, on a trail going to and from, so you can enter and exit without spooking deer in the field.
By hunting over it, it's hard not to spook deer on entry and exit. Just my opinion.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Really?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2010, 01:11:00 AM »
Mojostick - I am waiting to see how Michiganders like the archery season with the crossbows in it.

 In Vermont you have a constitutional right to hunt.

 Works for them.

I can hunt skunks and coyotes year around; as well as raccoons and other animals; so I don't worry about if I am conflicting the right to keep and bear arms and hunting rules.

 I would personally see hunting recognized as a right- because for me it is. It is who I am; it defines how I live my life and consumes my thoughts virtually everyday all year round....
 
 There is no right to sex in the constitution; and no privilege for it - only punishments for inappropriate behavior.

 I lived in Michigan pre-carrot....
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Offline Rogue Hammer

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Re: Really?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2010, 02:23:00 AM »
I guess I did not use the analogy well, what I meant by the speeder or drunk driver is should others be punished for their bad behavior?

I am not a poacher, I never have and never will, but because some joker does, I personally dont expect to be treated as guilty until proven innocent.

Here in Oregon I will carry broadheads or a rifle for that matter year round in the woods. Even though I have the ability to poach an animal I do not have the intent.

I am still confused on how someone without the intent can be fined.
A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter has no gallery to applaud or disaprove of his conduct.    Aldo Leupold

Offline owlbait

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Re: Really?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2010, 03:37:00 PM »
If the LAW of State says you must be properly licensed to carry those weapons in the area you are in, how hard is that to understand? If your State says you don't need a license to carry weapons in an area containing game that are not in season and they are not going to regulate that I would do it also. I don't have a problem in Michigan following the regulations...but we have a high incident level of poaching here so I feel they are trying to make it more difficult for them, not me.
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: Really?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2010, 04:59:00 PM »
Brian,

It seems a clear majority of trad guys are publically totally against it, but several I've talked individually and "off the record" feel like me that compounds are so high tech now, there is little difference anymore. One could even argue that a loaded compound with sights that calculate angle from the tree and Leupold rangefinders mounted, etc, are even more lethal than a xbow, even with having to pull back.

That's why I gave up on compounds. My last buck was a nice NLP 8pt, but I shot it at 47 yards. Frankly, I could have killed it at 55 yards. For me, that was it for compounds. So for me, I don't see a whole lot of difference anymore.

As far as the compound guys, it seems split, with many happy about the new rule and buying xbows like hotcakes.

It's a catch 22 for much of the Lower Penisula. If hunters can't kill enough antlerless deer in "archery season", be it with longbows, compounds or xbows, MDNR/NRC will just approve more early firearms seasons and maybe even antlerless firearms seasons smack dab in the middle of archery season.

So take your pick, xbows or a reasonable likelyhood of more and more firearms dates prior to the traditional Nov.15 opener.

A couple of my buddies in the SLP went out for the early antlerless season already. Did they see a pile of deer! Each one of them were done in an hour and saw 10 plus deer each, all on 60 acres, half of which is beans. There must be 50 deer per mile there.

The longer the overpopulated herds are in the SLP and south/central NLP, we're going to get more and more changes. And many won't like the changes because they think deer season should be exactly what it was when they grew up.

The truth is, the deer situation is nothing like it was when they/we grew up. The SLP has tons of deer now, where it had very few just 20 years ago. TB is still a problem and we had the CWD scare. So, as the reality changes, rules are going to change with it, like it or not.

Personally, I'll all for either going to one buck per year, any buck, or if we keep the combo tag, making both of them restricted. Something like 3pt's on one side for the 1st and 4pt's on one side for the 2nd. In addition, keep making antlerless tags plentiful in the southern 3/5's of the LP.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Really?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 02:55:00 AM »
Owlbait- I am ready to be wrong- but a recent supreme court decision makes the carrying of a concealed weapon a federal not state matter.

 For instance if you have a concealable weapon in your car- you cannot without a concealed weapons permit- put the weapon anywhere but in plain sight.
 If you stash it under the seat- its concealed; but in the open its not.
 I really believe that the old law about not having a firearm in possession in a bow only hunt came before the court decision.
 That needs checking out.

Bob - I talk to my friends in Michigan; and they say deer hunting sucks really bad. There are deer; but the D:A ratio is increasing ( deer to a$$hole).
 The argument I think depends of if your hunting private lands or public.

 What I don't like is the archery season being cut into because archers are not taking enough deer.

 Aldo Leopold thought using bowhunting as a management tool - would be a negative thing for bowhunting; and argued against it.

 I know hunting with a trad bow takes longer- because where the hunt with a rifle ends; the hunt with a modern mechanical bow starts; and where that starts getting tough- the traditional bow hunt begins.
  By that I mean a deer at 900 yards can be killed with a good rifle and scope set up.
  A modern tech bow is sighted in for 60 yards or more.
  The trad bowhunter is looking for an under 30 yard shot.
   I remember a long ago study of the distance that most deer were killed with a rifle in Michigan; and the average was 55 yards.
  That is within the tech bow pins.

What I don't want to see is the loss of anymore hunting opportunity for trad bowhunters- for not killing enough deer or whatever species.

 Traditional bowhunting includes kills; but it is not the only objective.
  If I wanted to kill things- I would hunt with a rifle.

 I would rather myself see an either or system - even if it only includes one of the deer you can take. That system would allow more time in the woods- and draw a line in the sand.

 As the pro bowhunters say- we are just experimenters in bowhunting- like Bear; and Hill and Pearson.  The pro-bowhunters might just decide its time for us to go.

 I would like a separation before that happens-so trad bowhunting is left out of the equations - no more than car kills or even less.

 Our enemies are rifle hunters that took an opportunity to kill out of the rifle season. They have increased accuracy and ease of learning- but they have bastarized bowhunting.

 I shaved the hair off a bucks chest yesterday- he was in front of me for almost 45 minutes trying to scent me ( along with some does). In all that time- I never did see how many points it had on the left side.
 I would hate to see rules that make excitement into crime in bowhunting.
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline Mojostick

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Re: Really?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 09:38:00 AM »
I've personally suggested a traditional only bow week for early September to the DNR and NRC. I've also suggested that there's no reason archery season shouldn't open here on Sept. 1, even if antlerless only Sept. 1-Sept. 30.

Oddly enough, it's some bowhunters that complain about that suggestion. They say it's too hot or fawns have spots. But I say "don't go if you don't want to, but don't stand in the way of those who would take advantage of September bowhunting.

States south of us, like Ohio and Kentucky, which are much warmer in Sept. open in early Sept. and their fawns are small too. Those states have no problems with September hunting.

As far as the hunting, that all depends where you're at.

The guys not seeing deer are typically northern public hunters and they stick to their familiar grounds. But what's happened is, by design, northern herds have been reduced due to the TB threat and that northern forests have matured and can't support large populations without massive timbering.

People remember the NLP and UP public land from 20-30 years ago, when the forest was 20-30 years younger. Now, much of the northern public land has passed the treshold to where it isn't very good deer habitat anymore. The UP deer crash in the 1990's marked the end of the UP heyday and will never rebound to past glory, unless of course Grand Rapids becomes the furniture capital of the USA again and we cut the whole north down. But we know that won't happen.

I'm in the central NLP. Newaygo county, to be exact. My hunting is better than it's ever been. But I've done some pretty substantial habitat improvements at our place. We timbered 80% of it in stages over the past 15 years and planted some 80,000 trees. We're passing yearling bucks and taking reasonable numbers of doe's.

What once was an area with only scrub spikes and forks is now producing some very respectable northern Michigan bucks. I "truck" scouted at daybreak yesterday and saw 3 really good bucks. My neighbor is a cop and on patrol, he's seen a couple bucks that are what you'd think is more like Iowa, than northern Michigan.

The NLP and UP will never again have the deer numbers of the 1980's and 90's. The DNR won't allow that to ever happen again, and frankly, the habitat won't allow for it anymore either. Winter in poor habitat will make any boom a bust in 2-3 years.

For some, QDM are dirty letters. All I can say is that it's made my hunting experience in the NLP better than I ever could have dreamed. Not only that, since I do habitat projects 12 months a year, the "season" never ends for me. To be honest, I think I enjoy doing the habitat improvement part more than the hunt itself. Seeing all the lush browse and thick bedding area's I created, and the healthier herd, gives me a higher satisfaction than killing a nice buck.

My suggestion to a group of guys that hunt northern public land would be to get together and buy some land up north. With the auto biz being what it is, tons of great hunting land is for sale "up north" and for cheap, by normal standards. Partners are always tough, but some type of incorporated club with 10-20 members is something a trad club should look into, if hunting northern public land was what they were used to.

If a trad club got 20 guys together, they could buy a couple hundred acres and have membership due's to cover all expenses and taxes. Limit hunting to paying members and kids of members. Then totally improve the habitat via the chainsaw.

This is just an example, but this is how northern public land hunters will need to think in the future if they wish to see more deer.

The reason is, the northern forest has finally outgrown the timber boom of the past, that made northern Michigan once the envy of the nation for deer hunting. Once thick poplar second cuts are now wide open aspen forests with 15-20" diameter aspens where you can see 200 yards.

Until those forests get cut, the north will remain a shadow of it's former glory, other than private owners that take the path that I did and work your tail off to improve the habitat.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Really?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 03:12:00 PM »
How about putting out mobile homes in forested areas- they seem to attract tornadoes...problem solved !    :coffee:
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

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