MDC

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Originally posted by A. Kinslow:
 

  Wow, your further south than I am. What major city is around there that needs an urban season??  

Springfield....third largest in the state.  At least they cut the urban portion down from a three county area to only Greene and a small portion of Christian. [/b]

I didn't realize that Springfield was that close, but then I had to look on my county map to find Christian County also. I haven't spent much time down that way, just passed through on occasion when coming back from Texas or Arkansas visiting family.

[Living_waters]

We gun hunt in Douglas and Howell counties and have for 20+ years. I miss the days of the check stations, willow springs fire department was the only check station in that part of the country, opening weekend students from Rolla checked age, health, measured racks and took some blood samples of the majority of deer checked in. Telecheck makes sure that that kind of information will not be collected again.  

What better way to spend a Saturday night then to set on the tailgate of a truck and watch the parade of deer come in.

But since the open doe tags began there we have seen a steady decline, not only in quality of deer but quantity, winters are rough on the deer in that part of the country and the mortality rate of young does I believe has greatly decreased the herd.

[-Achilles-]

The telechecking system is a dream for poachers.Its a bad idea.You can't tell me that this system doesn't get more abuse then the old system.It gets abused much more.Hell they used to set up road blocks on the road to catch poachers with untagged illegal deer here.

I have a few problems with mdc.

Like being able to kill hogs by any means neccesary anytime.Another dream for a poacher.Used to if they caught you in the woods before gun season with a gun you got a ticket for hunting out of season.Now all you have to say is your hog hunting.Yes I'm all for hogs in missouri.

How about it being illegal to kill owls,hawks or have the feathers of either.I see dead hawks on the road all the time and I'd love to get and use the feathers but its a big fine to have posession..I don't like that something is protected that kills alot of rabbits out.

Rabbits!What is going on with rabbit populations?You used to be able to drive down any gravel road at night and they would be everywhere.Now you rarely see any at all.You could get your limit with a bow now it can be tough to get your limit with a gun.Me and my family hardly go anymore theres just not enough rabbits to bother.

As far as big antlers I really don't care.I hunt for the meat and the horns mean nothing.If I shot a record deer it wouldn't get stuffed.I'd keep the antlers though for show.

I'm a (we could never have too many deer) kinda person)Whatever makes the deer population larger I'm all for it.

As far as MDC agents.What agents?Haven't seen them while out fishing or hunting or been checked in years.

[Charlie Lamb]

Just a note before I move this to politics forum.... Hawks owls and possession of their parts is a Federal thing.

[swp]

SEMO,

I am about 10 miles southeast of Springfield.

[-Achilles-]

"Hawks owls and possession of their parts is a Federal thing."

Well then the state needs to change this.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Just a note before I move this to politics forum.... Hawks owls and possession of their parts is a Federal thing.

Thanks Charlie, that's what I was going to say.
Sorry I started this in the wrong category, I hadn't even seen the Hunting/Legislation Policies section yet?

Crows are also fall under a Federal blanket of protection and there is a season on them, but around here they are obnoxiously thick!
I can't understand the protection they have on them, but I think it has something to do with a Mexican type Crow that there aren't that many of?

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Originally posted by -Achilles-:
"Hawks owls and possession of their parts is a Federal thing."

Well then the state needs to change this.

Native American Indians are the only ones allowed to possess feathers from birds of prey including eagles. Then, it must be determined that their use is for ceremonial purposes.
Are you part indian? You could probably get some feathers if you are?

[-Achilles-]

10% cherokee.But still they shouldn't be protected.There should be a season.I don't mind crows or scavengers I only worry about the predators that kill game,food animals and rabbits being so thin when they used to be so thick you could use a club.I understand that loss of habitat is a big part of that.

Now the eagle I get why its protected.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I know the hawks get their share and the owls too. They are both thick around here, but actually right here around the house the rabbits have come back pretty good. Since I started putting the hurt on coyotes and feral cats the rabbits have only gotten better here.

It's the quail disappearing that has really concerned me. We used to have a couple of small covies around here, now I haven't heard one whistle all summer. That just makes me sick, and I try to manage our place the way they reccomend to be suitable for quail, but I really haven't noticed it making a difference. Of course there's only so much one man can do, and you would have a hard time convincing my uncles to get rid of their cows that graze everything down. I don't mind cows, but I don't think the grazing helps the quail situation at all?

[-Achilles-]

Semo.The only good rabbit hunting is in town or around houses...lol...Yes here in SE missouri I used to jump some quail every now and then when I was a kid.Last time I seen some was about 10 years ago.

[fredhill]

i'm glad you started this topic Semo. i just got another doe this morning at 7:15am in a subdivision 10 minutes from home. St. Louis county obviously has crazy deer numbers. i have been a vocal critic of the deer season structure in MO for years. MDC sends me a survey every year where i list my suggestions. they are: 1) i personally like the 4 point rule or any sort of antler restriction but i think it is unfair to tell someone who only gets to hunt only a few times a year that they can't shoot a little fork horn. 2)i hate how long the rifle season is with the extra antlerless season. (23 days of rifle hunting!) 3)i think rifle season should be moved out of the rut. 4) you should get 1 buck tag a season to be filled with whatever method (bow, rifle, muzzleloader) you choose. 5) nonresidents should not be allowed to apply for the Managed Deer Hunts. the odds of successfully getting drawn is low enough already.
overall i'm glad i live in a state with such a good conservation dept. MO offers fantastic hunting with affordable over the counter nonresident tags (the way it should be everywhere). we have a public land system that is fantastic, only out west will you find anything better.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I agree with most of that except moving rifle season out of the rut. If they did that, then they just as well do away with it altogether. That's my favorite time to be in the woods, and as long as everyone is on the same playing field then make it like Iowa and Illinois were shotguns or muzzle loaders are the norm, and most guys just bowhunt.

As far as the antlerless portion of rifle season, we don't need that. That was a bad idea when it started in my opinion. There are enough does killed during the regular season and to pound them for another 10 days after already being pounded for 10 days is just plain wrong. If they do have an antlerless portion it should only be for 2 days in mid December and move the muzzle loader portion back where it was.
Besides, by allowing rifles in the woods immediately following the regualar rifle season....how many big bucks do you think get shot during that time? How many guys would pass up the oppurtunity if they saw that bruiser with gun in hand, that had eluded them all season long, and now they are only allowed to shoot a doe? I think the buck would go down in most cases, few people have that kind of restraint. Then it would just be one of those that they don't talk about and pass it off as a bow kill later on. I know it happens, and probably more than we think. If I can sit here at my computer and dream up that scenerio, I know it's already happened many times.

I also think there should be more restrictions put on out of state non-resident hunters, but that won't happen cause it brings in too much revenue. I've already had that conversation with Ken Drennon, and a few others over at MDC and you just as well eat your deer tag because that's about as far as it will get. When I said I had some aquaintences at MDC, I didn't necessarily mean friends or colleagues. They know my name all to well because I have been very vocal with many of them and had endless debates over hot topics. I'm like you, I tend to voice my displeasure with certain issues without hesitation. Sometimes I get them to listen, other times it falls on deaf ears, but they get to hear it none the less. I dont' ever settle for "That's just the way it is" line of BS, that will get me started quicker than anything else.

I also believe that 1 buck is plenty. If you only had one buck tag to get you through bow season, rifle season, and muzzle loader you would surely chose wisely. As it is right now, a guy could possible get 3 bucks a season. However that is highly unlikely, I have seen some that achieved that goal with 3 bruisers in one season all going over the 140" mark. How many does one guy need in a season? I've gone my entire life with only putting 2 on the wall with a truckload of smaller bucks back in my younger, less informed hunting days. Now I let many of them walk and turn my efforts toward putting meat on the ground and wait for the right buck to come around.

[Jeremy]

I'll mostly stay out of this one since I'm a Yankee, but there is one point I need to address.

 

Originally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:
It is just not sound herd management to allow a cow horn spike with daggers 8" long and a sack of jewels on him like a pony, walk away protected to infect the rest of the herd with his inferior genetics.

That's like saying I have superior genetics just b/c my, err, hands are bigger.  :rolleyes:

There's a whole lot more to "good genetics" than rack size.  Resistance to disease, fitness, stamina, general 'intelligence', skeletal and muscular types... traits that actually allow a species to to adapt to and survive in their environment.  

When a selective pressure (hunting) is applied to maximize rack size that's what you get.  It's not selecting for the fittest individual (what's best for the herd) just the individual that we want to see.  Let's start calling it as it is.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I don't know where you came up with that?
A bucks rack is an excellent indicator of his stamina, genetics, durability to withstand disease, and his ability to adapt and survive in his environment......how else do you think he managed to get that big?
I do call it like it is, and that's a fact.

Big bodied cow horn spikes are exactly what they are and all they ever will be. By taking those deer out of the gene pool you open up more habitat, food, and available does to breed for bigger, better quality bucks. It's not just one more mouth to feed, but another competitor for available hot does. Perfect example.....I killed a big spike a few years ago that came to my calls every time I made a call sequence, grunts, bleats, rattling you name it, he responded. He was roaming that ridge and no other bucks besides him ever responded....Why? Because he was guarding that area and with his dagger like head gear it would be hard for a normal buck with a normal rack to defend himself against such an aggressive spike. Only after calling him in for the 4th time in 2 separate weekends I determined he had to go, so I used my archery tag to put him in the freezer. That opened up an area to other bucks that I want to be there.
The evidence is in the quality of bucks we began to see on that particular property when my brother and I started practicing these principles. In 3 consecutive years after about 4 years of our own self implied antler restrictions, long before Missouri ever implemented theirs, my brother took a P&Y class buck every year. I myself took the biggest buck of my life the year after his successes, a 155" 10pt. that I'm sure was one of the bucks I had passed on for previous years. I let a bunch of small 8 and 10pts. walk for 4 years hoping for a chance at a real booner, and it finally happened.

I don't know about you, but if I have the opportunity to manage my deer herd to any extent at all, I'm going to take those kind of bucks out of the herd to make room for ones that definitely have potential. Then just maybe the next one I call in on that same ridge will be a quality buck.

You also have to remember that this is Missouri we are talking about, not Connecticut. The winters here are rarely severe enough to kill of any deer except the wounded or sick, so the ability to survive in this environment is a cake walk compared to deer way up north where the winters are harsh.

Unfortunately, in certain parts of Missouri now it is illegal to kill such a buck because he doesn't have 4pts. on one side, that's the point I was trying to make. The option to terminate a lesser quality buck such as the big spike I mentioned has been taken completely out of our hands in those areas of Missouri with the 4pt. rule.

[-Achilles-]

Why couldn't a spike survive and grow bigger? Not rack size but body size?I don't care about racks personally I only hunt for meat but I was wondering.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Originally posted by -Achilles-:
Why couldn't a spike survive and grow bigger? Not rack size but body size?I don't care about racks personally I only hunt for meat but I was wondering.

Yes, body size is like any other deer, they will grow to be big and fat.
I'm not interested in a big bodied deer to eat because they get tough anyway. If I want a good piece of tender venison I'll shoot a yearling doe.

If I'm after a buck then I'm looking for a nice rack. Not many people would disagree with that, but to each his own. If your not after a trophy rack then that's great, the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Dreaming about huge racked bucks is what gets me fired up and going through the ritual every fall.

I will add though that the criteria for trophy status is subject to change at anytime. This year since I'm hunting exclusively with trad gear during the archery portion and I have yet to take one with a trad bow, any deer would be a trophy for me and I would be just as proud of it as if it were a booner.

[fredhill]

Semo, i'll explain my point about moving the rifle season out of the rut. if the plan is to protect bucks you could eliminate the point restriction by moving the rifle season. we all know that the bucks are the most visible during the rut and by not having rifle hunters pound them so hard when they are most vulnerable they would live longer. this is how Iowa does it. now, since i don't rifle hunt i of course like the idea but i realize it's a pipe dream. i can imagine the sh*t storm it would cause across the state. did you attend any of those MDC sponsored deer hunting town hall meetings a couple years ago? talk about an eye opener. i never heard so much complaining. some people thought $7.00 for an antlerless tag was too expensive, $19 for a firearms tag too high, non residents were "stealing" our deer, some guy said inline ML's needed to be banned because you can kill deer at 400 yards with them (what?) etc.

[-Achilles-]

Of course if you have the option of shooting the deer with the big rack anyone would but I think most hunt for meat first.The rack being just icing on the cake.Meat can be tenderized.I don't eat tough meat.I'm actually hunting in 1 of the counties where you can't shoot as many does as you want after you fill your first 2 any deer tags.But like I said when it comes to telecheck how would they know anyway?

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I live in St. Francois county and I also hunt here around the house on about 450 acres of family and friends of family property combined. There aren't that many deer here, so I don't shoot that often. I've killed 3 here in the past 4 years, and I haven't killed any bucks. There's no 4pt. rule and you can take as many does as you want with a bow, but rifle your only allowed 1 any deer and 1 antlerless deer.

We are lucky enough to have some property in Montgomery county and you can get as many doe tags for archery and rifle as you want to up there, the 4pt. rule is also in affect.
I rarely buy an extra tag, 2 with a bow is plenty and if I get one with a rifle fine, but it's not really necessary because I've usually got all the meat I can use in the freezer by the time that rolls around, that's another reason why I'm mainly just after a big buck. Mostly because I'm not meat hunting at that point and I can afford to wait as long as it takes, if it doesn't happen then so be it.

If I kill one with a bow and my dad kills one with a bow then that's about all we need. I'm not one of those guys who keeps killing deer just because I have tags left, that's not how I see it. Take what you need, eat what you take, and leave the rest for seed.

Nature is GOD's dinner table, that HE has provided for us to feed ourselves from, and I won't steal food from HIS table, I won't make a glutton of myself while seated at HIS table either. I think GOD also likes for us to share the bounty from HIS table with others who cannot reach it for themselves.
Maybe that sounds silly to some people, but that's how I feel about it.