About wolves

[Bill Carlsen]

Guru just stopped a thread about a wolf shot in Ohio. I get why he stopped the thread but just a few days ago I read about a bowhunter in Wisconsin who was walking from his stand back to his camp and was stalked all the way there by a pack of wolves. I suspect that wolves, in general, may be a problem that many of us may have to deal with in the future so I hope that threads in the future about just the existence of wolves and their impact on hunting, deer herds, run in with hunters, etc. will not be shut off. The issues surrounding them may have little to do with being hunted or killed by bowhunters but their very existence in places like Ohio and Wisconsin can and will, I believe, have profound effects an all hunters. I, for one, would like to hear more about them because it will affect my hunting and perhaps my safety.

[Spectre]

Can we get an "Amen"? Amen.

[bornagainbowhunter]

Anytime a preadator, like a wolf, loses its natural fear of humans it will become dangerous.  I too read about the guy being shadowed by some wolves, sounds like a problem brewing.

God Bless,
Nathan

[lovethehunt]

Bill, I think you are spot on. I did not see the thread about the Ohio incident, but did read about the 'shadowing'. We as hunters need to educate ourselves and be part of the ecosystem, not just consumers. Safety is of primary importance and any predator that has lost a fear of humans is a danger to every person, not just hunters. I believe Leopold was right with his insight about the need of predators and how we fit in with the whole system. However, we should be able to defend ourselves from/during an attack.

[Oregon Okie]

sounds like it would fit in the legislation and policies forum maybe.

[Pat B]

I'd bet the wolves are saying the same thing on their traditional website. d;^)
  I know folks that have been stalked by big cats(here in the east) and bears. Should we do away with them too. We have almost elimninated all the big predators and now are trying to reinstate them back into nature. I am a firm believer in good managment practices so I believe in appropriate hunting seasons for all game animals and predators to keep their numbers in check.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Pat B:
I'd bet the wolves are saying the same thing on their traditional website. d;^)
  I know folks that have been stalked by big cats(here in the east) and bears. Should we do away with them too. We have almost elimninated all the big predators and now are trying to reinstate them back into nature. I am a firm believer in good managment practices so I believe in appropriate hunting seasons for all game animals and predators to keep their numbers in check.

Absolutely. We must remember that we are part of the ecosystem, too. We must also remember that we are part of the food chain-----we can be on the bottom of this chain just as easily as we can be on the top.

[jhg]

Originally posted by Pat B:

  ...I know folks that have been stalked by big cats(here in the east) and bears. Should we do away with them too...I am a firm believer in good managment practices so I believe in appropriate hunting seasons for all game animals and predators to keep their numbers in check.

I agree. I also think as hunters we need to overcome our own selfishness, (myself included) We have had the woods to ourselves for the most part for a long time and un-natural numbers of deer and elk at our pleasure. So we don't want to see that change, I understand that. I for one could live with fewer elk and deer, but not because I think it will be easier to hunt them. I'm not out there because its easy anyway.

A few have suggested they will/are going to take matters into their own hands if they see wolves.

 THAT, I know, is wrong.

Influence the policys and the management using the means that are within the law. Thats how a democracy works, like it or not. I've been around long enough to know that even if the result of this process is not perfect, or the results exactly what we or I would have liked, its better than any other system in the world. Engage in it and the result will be something we can all live with.

Joshua

[Spectre]

jhg,

 That is wrong, why? Was it not wrong for the government to introduce a non-native species(Canadian Gray wolves)to our woods without even so much as asking for a vote on the matter? Last I checked, this was a democracy which we lived in. If a pack of these apex predators is threatening my family or my livestock, I will do something about it. You would, too. You can't even get the elk to bugle in central Idaho anymore, a bugle is regarded as a dinner bell to the wolves. You can't even hardly go out to the woods anymore without running into the wolves. They don't fear humans----their instinctive and natural fear of us has been erased BY HUMANS on account of handling them in the first place.
 Call an outfitter who hails from country where these animals have been "reintroduced" and ask that outfitter how business is going. Call a cattle rancher or a sheep rancher. Call the local scout troop. Then, maybe you will understand the depth of this problem. The wolves were forced down our throats. If thats how democracy works, we are in big trouble.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I realize that some of you live out in the sticks like I do, and some of you do not.
Out here we don't have nuisance animal control, we don't have a dog catcher, we don't have any policies or legislation to govern problem animals of any kind. So, we deal with it ourselves on a problem animal no matter what it is on an individual basis. If an animal, whether it be cats, dogs, coyotes, skunks, opossums, coons, or squirrels are dealt with as the need arises.
That's just how it's done.

When I read things like a bow hunter being shadowed by a pack of wolves on his way back to the cabin it makes me thankful that I don't have those kinds of issues to deal with, but the bottom line is that it should be dealt with accordingly just like we have always done here where I live.
Man has made laws to govern a broad base of people and situations in general, and not by a worst case scenario. That's a judgement call in my opinion, and legislators can't possibly imagine every situation or scenario that could happen. You must do what you have to do to protect yourself and that's the real important issue here.
You wouldn't let a burglar break into your house and pillage your belongings, then help themselves to your family while you stand by and do nothing because the law prohibits you from using lethal force would you? Absolutely not.
Why then should wolves be any different?
I don't condone hunting them down and eradicating them out of fear of the unknown, or targeting them because we are afraid of "What Might happen" because that would be wrong. There is a definite need for a hunter to protect himself that needs to be addressed by those states that have healthy populations of wolves, large cats, bears, and any other species of predators that are capable of attacking.

This is what happens when mankind tries to intervene with mother nature, and the outcome is seldom positive. It almost always leads to disaster in some form or another, and is an issue better left alone to let the natural order of things unfold as nature intended.
There is a reason why there aren't wolves in every state anymore, as they once were before we settled here in the 1800's, and we can't have it both ways. Especially the way the world is today with the population ever increasing, it's just not practical to re-introduce predators into areas and allow them to spread to areas where their contact with humans are inevitable.....that's a tragedy waiting to happen.

But try explaining that to organizations like CBD (Center for Biological Diversity) that want to see healthy populations of wolves in every state in the country, and are the main reason why wolf hunting seasons are constantly being put on hold and tied up in the courts.

Oregon Okie is probably right, this issue may be better suited for the legislation/policies forum?

[jhg]

If we all ignore laws there will be no law.

 Choose your poison.

And I never suggested anyone not protect their life. The rancher issue will be worked out I am sure to their satisfaction. Nobody wants ranchers to lose their livelyhoods.

J-

[Bowmania]

I also disagree with jhg.  Sometimes you do what's right for the environment.  I think I know more about what's right for the environment, than a person making a law that's never been in the woods.

I'll probably never have the chance to do what's right, but will if it comes up.

Bowmania

[Drew]

I see no need for them, they all turn to heated debate and end up going no where.

[jhg]

Participate in the process. Or undermine it. Its your choice.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it rankles me when citizens abandon the democratic process, just because they think everyone in Washington has.

Don't fall into the trap of letting others poor behavior influence your own to that level.

Soapbox back to center.

Joshua

[SS Snuffer]

Come live in Minn. and see what you think!

[calgarychef]

I gotta preface this by saying I haven't been "shadowed" by wolves, but I have hunted in areas that are pretty thick with them. I won't get into the game management argument because the States isn't my hunting area so I think I should let you guys bash that one out yourselves.

Honestly guys you're dreaming if you think your life is in dangered by wolves, go hunting and don't worry about them.  

Listen to them howl and enjoy the experience, we need predators to make wilderness wild.  Without the bears, wolves and cougars we might as well be hunting in a petting zoo.

the chef

[Ragnarok Forge]

The premise behind reintroduction of wolves would be valid if this country was a broad wilderness with endless miles for the wolves to roam and hunt.  It quite simply is not that country in most places anymore.  The animals they hunt are blocked and restricted with fences, roads, and endless other man made structures.  The wolves experience the same thing.  They simply no longer belong on the landscape that exists in most states in America.  

Let's reintroduce Grizzly Bears across their entire range again too.  Not the same thing?  Yes it is! Think it hasn't been pushed by the enviro's?  It has here in Washington state.  

The wolves were shoved down the West's throat by a bunch of environmentalists and the Fed back east.  They did not ask if they were wanted by the majority of the public. No one got to vote on it.  They recieved a lot of negative input anyways, and then did it despite heavy protest. That is not democracy of any sort that I recognize.  

The premise of democracy is to choose for yourself when a law is valid and when it is not, and to choose when and when not to obey them.  That is your right as a citizen. The right of protest and civil disobedience.  Just because someone wrote a law and put it in place does not make that law valid.  How many new and old laws get turned over by the courts.  Quite a few.   Always question, always challenge with fore thought.    

Wolves shadowing a hunter?  Sounds like a lot of dead wolves to me.  

Talk about an invasive species.  Were busy trying to kill all the Nutria, Canary Reed Grass, and fish invaders in my area, while the Fed is shoving Canadian ( non-native ) wolves down our throats.  That point alone proves how ridiculous their premise is.  On one hand they pay millions to get rid of invasive species and on the other they import one in full violation of laws preventing just that. Seems to me the Fed needs to follow it's own rules and obey it's own laws.

[Bill Carlsen]

I hope this conversation stays civil...I just felt like the issue is one that hunters should have a say in and have some knowledge of. Situations involving the larger predators will vary from region to region so I do not have an axe to grind or a point of view. I just want to be educated and be aware.

This past summer at the Muzzy shoot I had a chance to share some time with Michelle and Fred Eichler and they have a lot to say about wolves and its affect on their guide business, game herds and livestock farmers. There seems to be no easy answers from where I sit but I am not too sure I want Fish and Game or legislators who only go outside to smoke making decisions about the introduction (or so called reintroduction) of such animals in my state or even nearby states. Too many unintentional consequences in populated areas (people around here are already concerned about coyotes...now wolves?) could ensue and fixing the problem could be like trying to get tooth paste back in the tube. I am not afraid  in the sense  that I can't take care of myself (I've got a Smith and Wesson .45) but I am afraid of mistakes made by people that we elect (the really dangerous wolves) making bad decisions. I am not for or against wolves, but can see pretty clearly that they could have a significant impact in many ways. Let's keep our eyes and ears open and keep tabs on what our Game departments and legislators have going on.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by jhg:
If we all ignore laws there will be no law.

 Choose your poison.

And I never suggested anyone not protect their life. The rancher issue will be worked out I am sure to their satisfaction. Nobody wants ranchers to lose their livelyhoods.

J-

No, you didn't. What you did do, however, was suggest we all just bow down and accept the law simply because it is written. Where, I wonder, shall we draw the line in the sand?

[rraming]

I live in Minnestoa (and hunt Wisconsin some years also) the population is getting higher and Minnesota is talking about opening up an hunting season for them next year. We also have mountain lions which the DNR in both states like to deny until one gets hit with a car and then they say "they don't reproduce here" OK - I carry the bear pepper spray and now carry a large Bowie knife when hunting. Wisconsin will let you carry a pistol, Minnesota will not (while bowhunting). Common sense when hunting these areas is to prepare for the worst. Paranoid as it may seem, seems smart to me.