Shameful situation in NE

[Fischman]

Well I went to the NGPC "wildlife management" meeting in Curtis, Ne. last nite and basically the Warden, Biologist, and Commisioner present told us that the crossbow issue is a done deal and we are to live with it. I was rather suprised to find that several of the "aging" bowhunters in the crowd actually showed great support for crossbows, whom I know wouldn't have a few years ago. It seems that with the advent of instant gratification in this world anyone drawn into the scheme of things will change his mind if they feel their not getting their piece of the pie! I'm sure with the continued pressure from big money and outfitters in the state drawing incomes from our state deer herd that many more will be swayed to believe that they need an instant piece of pie and their values and morals will change with time. We continue to find out that the true meaning of the hunt slips away for more every day as they buy into the techno hunting worlds view and of outrageous videoing of crazy fist pumping idiots competing for the most "bone". The legislators shoved this down our throats even though its a process thats supposed to take several months to get through the signing into law process, it seems that the only shot at slowing this down is a massive mailing campaign to the Governor to not sign it into law ??

[Al Dente]

Crossbow hunters in Ohio make up 60% of the "archery" users, where others(compound, trad, selfbows) make up the other 40%.  The harvest totals are reflected in those numbers as well, with crossbow hunters killing deer by the same margin.  So with crossbow introduction into the archery seasons, crossbows do indeed have an effect on harvest totals and participants using one.  There is a crossover ratio with an  average of 37% of firearms hunters using a crossbow during the archery seasons in Ohio and Arkansas. So again, the crossbow does indeed have an impact on archery seasons.

Legislators need to realize that you are not limiting people as to how to hunt, there are options available for those who wish to put in the time and effort into using them.  What State game agencies see is nothing more than moeny for their coffers.  Squandered money needs to be replaced.  With a new license, they get it, and they also get more money from Pittman-Robinson excise taxes.  They prostituted themselves to the crossbow manufacturers because they are incapable of running a game agency.
What should be done is to have easier land access and really concentrate on a viable, realistic approach to managing the deer herd.

[Horner]

Originally posted by Buckeye Trad Hunter:
Sorry that I offended some people with the facts the last time I posted on this issue.  Toehead, how would you feel if 22 of the 33 bears had been taken with traditional gear and the crossbow hunters were calling for an end to your season?  Would you feel that we should limit how many people could use trad gear then?  Maybe this was just a good year for bear?  I would be very upset too if I had to eat a $100 tag.  I just don't understand why people get so torn up over what someone else hunts with.  Is it because they kill too many animals?  If so you're only supporting their argument of their effectiveness.  Is it because you think all crossbow hunters are lazy slobs?  A slob is a slob no matter what weapon you give them.  Maybe they don't have enough time to practice with a stickbow.  In that case you should commend them for using a weapon that they are proficient with, not condem them.  I'm not trying to make anyone mad and Owlbait, I apologize for ruffling your feathers last time, but everyone needs to look at the reality of the situation and realise that there is no way to win this fight.  It , like everything else is all about the money and every argument you try to make will be turned against you and could in reality have stickbows banned from bowseason.  We're only pennies in a billion dollar industry and no one likes it when you reach in their purse.

I agree totally,.....  If someone wants to hunt with an X-Bow more power to them...I would rather people hunt with what they can shoot well with, then wound a bunch of deer with something they can't use.

I don't think everyone has the discipline to hunt with a traditional bow.  It takes a bunch of practice and time.  Most people now days don't have that time.  

I support all hunters, I feel that is the way it should be.

[JCJ]

Al Dente wrote:

"There is a crossover ratio with an average of 37% of firearms hunters using a crossbow during the archery seasons in Ohio and Arkansas."

Al: Where is this data available? I can't find it in the Tonkovich & Cartwright study titled Evaluation of Crossbows for deer hunting in Ohio and Arkansas.

Thanks,

Jay

[684Kevin]

Al Dente: Where did your data come from?  I will try to check with state ODNR office tomorrow to see how their info compares.  Every deer tagged in is logged in as killed by a longbow, crossbow, gun or muzzeloader.  I heard the numbers once but remembered the longbow (which includes compounds & recurves) was second to the gun. I would have guessed crossbow kills would account for less than 5% of the total deer.

[684Kevin]

I just confimed from the ODNR website that in 2009 there were 49,000 deer were killed with  crossbows and 42,000 killed with longbows.  Al Dente's numbers are accurate. Locally there are very few crossbow hunters but I would guess the numbers rise drastically the closer you get to urban areas.  Those numbers seem outrageous.  The crossbow doesnt affect my hunting scenario but with kill numbers like that I'm sure they may have a large effect in the areas where they are used in larger numbers.

[JCJ]

Last year Mike Tonkovich of the OH DNR indicated that OH vertical bow (compound, recurve, longbow) archers had record harvests 11 of the last 11 years and OH crossbow users had record harvests 10 of the last 11 years. There doesn't seem like much negative impact at least in "traditional" bowhunters annual harvest as a result of the crossbow.

[briarpatch]

Actually, Al Dente's numbers may be accurate...but not supported by the harvest totals, if 684Kevin's harvest totals are accurate.  They would total 91,000 harvested...and longbow hunters, which make up 40% of the archery hunters, would have taken a disproportionate 46% of the kill.....

[Al Dente]

The data was from the original Tonkovitch study from Ohio and Arkansas.  In one state the crossover ratio was 35% and the other was 39%, for an average of 37%.

[briarpatch]

Al Dente.....unfortunately, your math is flawed again.  You can not average averages....real math simply does not work that way.  In order for you to be accurate, you'd need the totals that those percentages were based on.  By the way...do you know of anywhere I could obtain a copy of that report?  I've searched the web and have only been able to find references to it.

[JCJ]

"The data was from the original Tonkovitch study from Ohio and Arkansas. In one state the crossover ratio was 35% and the other was 39%, for an average of 37%."

Al:

The original study was by Tonkovich and Cartwright study cited in my message above. I re-read it again today and nowhere did I find the statistics about "crossover rate" you mention above.

One thing to consider is that the tremendous growth in bowhunting over the last thirty years has been fueled by existing gun hunters increasing their avidity level in whitetail deer hunting by becoming two-season hunters. Early 90's research by Responsive Management and Southwick and Associates found that 82% of all bowhunters were gun hunters prior to becoming a bowhunter. "Crossover" has been going on long before the recent increased interest in crossbows.

Briarpatch: The Tonkovich and Cartwright report was published as part of the proceedings of the First Annual Bowhunting Summit. If you can not find it send me a PM with your e-mail and I will scan and send it to  you.

[LITTLEBIGMAN]

I  personally hunt with traditional archery equipment for the same reasons Mr. Pope, Mr Young, Mr. Bear and a host of others did and still do. Because I want to make the killing part of what I do as difficult as possible. These great men worked against great odds to get game officials to recognize that in the hands of some individuals a primitive weapon was lethal and humane and that we should be set apart from those who chose to use modern weapons. It seems to me we should still be set apart. If some one wants to take an easier route , then fine . Just don't let them hunt during a time frame designated as the primitive season. but we lost this battle years ago when we didn't fight the compound. I fail to see how we will win it now. its a very sad situation.

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Originally posted by LITTLEBIGMAN:
It seems to me we should still be set apart. If some one wants to take an easier route , then fine . Just don't let them hunt during a time frame designated as the primitive season.

And who exactly do you think will get the most time in the woods, the 40% of longbow hunters(includes longbow, recurve, and compound) or the 60% of crossbow hunters?  Keep supporting this idea and see who loses their time in the woods.  I'm not trying to be offensive at all, but this just goes back to what I've said before.  It's all about the money and we're simply pennies in a billion dollar enterprise.

[JCJ]

"but we lost this battle years ago when we didn't fight the compound."

And in spite of all the hand wringing and concern at the time, the compound revolution didn't destroy bowhunting.

[LITTLEBIGMAN]

jcj   that depends upon one's definition of "bow" hunting

[JCJ]

Yes and we are all entitled to our own definition. I have seen that definition change in the 35 years I have been involved in archery and bowhunting. And I am certain it will continue to change going forward and reflect the ideals of the majority. A sad situation for you or I may be the cats meow for the next hunter.

[Redeye]

Originally posted by Horner:
 

Originally posted by Buckeye Trad Hunter:
Sorry that I offended some people with the facts the last time I posted on this issue.  Toehead, how would you feel if 22 of the 33 bears had been taken with traditional gear and the crossbow hunters were calling for an end to your season?  Would you feel that we should limit how many people could use trad gear then?  Maybe this was just a good year for bear?  I would be very upset too if I had to eat a $100 tag.  I just don't understand why people get so torn up over what someone else hunts with.  Is it because they kill too many animals?  If so you're only supporting their argument of their effectiveness.  Is it because you think all crossbow hunters are lazy slobs?  A slob is a slob no matter what weapon you give them.  Maybe they don't have enough time to practice with a stickbow.  In that case you should commend them for using a weapon that they are proficient with, not condem them.  I'm not trying to make anyone mad and Owlbait, I apologize for ruffling your feathers last time, but everyone needs to look at the reality of the situation and realise that there is no way to win this fight.  It , like everything else is all about the money and every argument you try to make will be turned against you and could in reality have stickbows banned from bowseason.  We're only pennies in a billion dollar industry and no one likes it when you reach in their purse.

I agree totally,.....  If someone wants to hunt with an X-Bow more power to them...I would rather people hunt with what they can shoot well with, then wound a bunch of deer with something they can't use.

I don't think everyone has the discipline to hunt with a traditional bow.  It takes a bunch of practice and time.  Most people now days don't have that time.  

I support all hunters, I feel that is the way it should be. [/b]

I find this quite puzzling.  If you support any weapon then why not handguns during archery seasons?  Why not muzzleloaders?  If someone can't use a crossbow because they don't have time to practice with one or can't afford one why not a gun?

This kind of thinking is what got us into this situation.  The "ME" generation.

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Originally posted by Redeye:

This kind of thinking is what got us into this situation.  The "ME" generation. [/QB]

I have to disagree.  The "me" generation are the ones who don't want other people in "their woods" during "their season" because they don't aprove of the weapon they choose to use when the law deems it legal.  If that's not only thinking about ones self then please, tell me what is.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding.  Are people angry with those who choose to hunt with crossbows or with the fact that crossbows are being allowed in archery season?  I'm getting some conflicted reasoning.  I can understand the it's not archery equipment argument, but being upset because someone chooses to hunt with a crossbow when they're told that they can isn't something I can agree with.  As stated in a book we all know, hate the sin not the sinner.

[JCJ]

[Redeye]

I can not speak for others.  I am vehemently opposed to the use of the crossbow by able bodied people during the archery only seasons.