Shameful situation in NE

[Redeye]

JCJ,

Tonkovich was asked by Dr.Dave Samuel at the First Bowhunter Annual Summit the following.

"What affect will crossbow use during the archery season have on major deer producing states?"

Tonkovich said:  "It will have a drastic affect on bowhunting as we know it."

Those are from my notes taken at the summit.

[JCJ]

"It will have a drastic affect on bowhunting as we know it."

It's been many years since the Summit, can you point me in the direction of those drastic affects?

I will copy Mike Tonkovich on Monday and ask if he can enlighten me on his comments to Dr. Samuel.

Thanks for your insight, I am always looking to increase my knowledge on the subject.

[Redeye]

His response could mean many things.  I took his answer to mean that the complexion of bowhuning itself would change should crossbows be legalized.    I took it to mean that it would no longer be considered a bowhunting season but crossbow hunting season and that the crossbow would be the weapon of choice to the majority in very short order.  Could also increase the kill before the rut further giving the die hard gun hunters more leverage to push for shorter archery seasons.

Here in Michigan the vendors can't stock enough crossbows for the demand.

[JCJ]

Depending on which side of the debate you are on the change in complexion could be a positive or a negative. I see the recruitment of an existing one season firearms deer hunter into a two season firearm and archery deer hunter as a positive from a hunter retention standpoint. The compound has been a proven, effective tool in this effort and the crossbow will serve the same function. If I could find evidence of wholesale desertion by existing traditional (vertical) bowhunters as a result of a states inclusion of crossbows in archery seasons, or a direct correlation between inclusion and a decrease in archery (bowhunting) participation, then I might feel otherwise. To date I can find no evidence of this.

[Redeye]

Since the full inclusion of crossbows it ain't bow season any more.
If you think hunting with a crossbow is bowhunting I feel sorry for you.

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

As long as no one is saying that we can't hunt with traditional tackle why does anyone care what someone else hunts with?  No one is telling you that you have to hunt with a crossbow.  You're worried that they may take time away from "your" bow season, push for a crossbow only season and that's exactly what they'll do is they'll take it from "your" archery season to make extra time for them.  It has had no effect on the archery season for 28 years in Ohio and that isn't oppinion or hearsay my friend it's fact.

[Redeye]

The difference between Ohio and Michigan is the shear numbers of hunters.

Last I looked Ohio is not a major deer producing state.

[Redeye]

You are also very lucky that in Ohio you have very short gun seasons.

[Fischman]

If you get back to the real issue here in Nebraska, the facts are that a few people pushed it through for the sake of selling more licsences in the early archery season for the Outfitters here! Money, Money, Money!!! Sad that those people already get to hunt the rut and all of december and now have an unlimited season, and we always did let handicap people hunt archery season with xbows, so whats next? If ya endorse everything it seems ya must have a motive! The landowners that complain along the river corridors that deer are overpopulated, either don't manage their deer herd or its leased out for trophy hunting and they let no one shoot doe! They try to tell us that xbows will kill more doe, I say bunk to that they will kill the bucks and the overpopulated areas will not get anymore hunting pressure on the does! I know in a way we are all guilty because we buy all the stuff from big chain outdoor stores and the gear company's get richer and spend their money leasing and buying land up that they don't have a clue how to manage! So don't cry when you either have no choice and either have to pay big bucks to hunt someday or not hunt! Whew! YA GOT TO STAND FOR SOMETHING OR YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING !!!

[Fischman]

And they say a horse is a horse, is a horse, of course!? LOL-Right!! CROSSBOWS ARE NOT ARCHERY !                                        ------------------------YA GOT TO STAND FOR SOMETHING OR YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING !!!

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Fischman, I completly agree with the statement that one day you are going to have to pay an outrageous amount to hunt or not hunt at all if you don't own property to hunt on, but that's a different subject all together.  I also disagree that allowing crossbows will cause more does to be killed, the weapon a person chooses has no bearing on which animal they will take.  I also appreciate and understand your argument that you feel a crossbow is not archery equipment.

Redeye, What are you considering a major deer producing state?  Numbers of whitetail or numbers of whitetail in the books?  But that also is a different argument altogether.  I'm not a naturalist or state biologist, not even close, but maybe we have such a short gun season because we have such a succesful archery season?  Not saying that's the reason, just a possibility.  I don't know what the reason is.  I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to be open and understand everyones side of the subject.

[Wary Buck]

Two things about this change especially irk me.

The first is that bowhunters are called selfish for not wanting to share the archery-only season with a weapon that does not require bow-shooting skills.  The crossbow requires only gun-shooting techniques and therefore does not require the learning curve all bowhunters must face and master.  Bow seasons have always been open to anyone wanting to learn the somewhat challenging sport of shooting a hand-held bow.  That's not selfish.  And bowhunters are always recruiting more people into the sport and are the first to step forward to teach newbies.  That's not selfish.  Want to shoot a bow, any numerous individuals and organizations will step forward to help.  Wanting a quality hunt is a huge part of bowhunting, and no more selfish than a waterfowler not wanting another spread of decoys 200 yards from his, or pulling up to a CRP field to hunt pheasants and seeing another group of hunters pulling out, or seeing a fisherman set up in your favorite spot.  Calling bowhunters selfish (which is what the crossbow folks, the NGPC, and others) in NE is hypocritical and really unfair and untrue.

The second thing that especially irks me here in NE is that there was no grass-roots effort whatsoever for crossbows.  None.  Just one or two squeaky wheels, and Game and Parks Commission hell-bent on selling more permits, and a whole lot of pressure from one or two micro-managing state senators who know little to nothing about natural resources.

[Fischman]

Well put WaryBuck, just proves someone is always wanting what others have and will do anything to cheapen it up !

[Horner]

Originally posted by Redeye:

This kind of thinking is what got us into this situation.  The "ME" generation. [/QB]

Your comment does not even make sense......How can I be about ME, when I openly said I support all hunters????

Anyway I agree again with all points Buckeye Trad Hunter has made.

If we push issues like this we will have:
Longbow season
Recurve season
Compound season
X-bow season

After that happens we can all sit around and talk about who gets the best hunting dates, and how that is not fair.

This is how I truly feel in my heart....  ALL hunters need to stick together.

A long time ago their was a dove hunting issue on our local ballot.  I am not a dove hunter, but I voted for dove hunting in Ohio because I am sure a bunch of guys do like to hunt them. Who am I to say I don't do that, so you should not either?

[Horner]

Originally posted by Fischman:
And they say a horse is a horse, is a horse, of course!? LOL-Right!! CROSSBOWS ARE NOT ARCHERY !                                        ------------------------YA GOT TO STAND FOR SOMETHING OR YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING !!!

Yes Sir....  I stand for the rights of all hunters to lawfully hunt with their weapon of choice.

I love being a traditional archer, but I don't feel personally that I am any more of a hunter than the guy who uses all the bells and whistles to get it done.  
I just have made a personal choice to bow hunt traditionally.

[wildgame]

I just have made a personal choice to bow hunt traditionally. [/QB][/QUOTE]
x2

[Bonebuster]

If crossguns were O.K., then why have all the states that have recently announced full inclusion in archery seasons, done so in a "back door" manner?!!!?

If the vote was left to the people, and the inclusion was voted in, then so be it.
This is however, NOT the case!!!

[Horner]

Bonebuster,
I see exactly what you mean.  I guess it has always been a part of Ohio's archery season, for my hunting life span.  Your comment really made me think about what it might feel like to be in someone shoes, where it was not the norm.

[Winterhawk1960]

Originally posted by Bonebuster:
If crossguns were O.K., then why have all the states that have recently announced full inclusion in archery seasons, done so in a "back door" manner?!!!?

If the vote was left to the people, and the inclusion was voted in, then so be it.
This is however, NOT the case!!!

Back door manner.......it's just like all the other decisions that are made "behind closed doors". If you grease the "right palms" you might be surprised what can happen.

Now as for allowing the "people" to make a decision on whether something is "legal" to use in season or not.          

You might REALLY wanna "re-think" that, because I'm telling you right now.......just as sure as I am sitting here breathing in oxygen that if you EVER put "hunting" as an "entirity" on an election ballot.......most, if not ALL of us wouldn't be hunting anymore......PERIOD !!!

I saw it happen right here in WV with the "Sunday Hunting"......the legislature passed a law that "allowed" Sunday hunting in all 55 counties......people complained enough to the right folks and it was then put up for a vote on a county basis. There is no longer ANY Sunday hunting in WV.

Think what you may.......WE as "hunters", regardless of means used to take said animal are a MINORITY......and we would lose BIG !!! If you were to put on a ballot for the public to vote on whether it was legal to have green hair, it would become illegal......simply because MOST people DON'T have, or want to have green hair.

Numbers don't lie. It doesn't matter to me what you hunt with, if it is legal and in season, have at it. I wasn't put on this earth to "judge" anyone......it is a personal choice as to what you use. This is a "traditional archery" site, and I very frequently come here because I enjoy the company of other traditional archers. That being said, I also hunt with various muzzle-loaders, from a flint-lock to a modern inline. I don't talk about, nor post about any kills that I make with ANY of them. I also have been known to occasionally hunt with a center-fire rifle....and again, I make no mention of ANY kills that I have or will make with them.

I don't have to participate with ANY weapon that I don't choose to use, but I believe that I still should have the choice to do so....if it is legal. It's kinda like the people complain because of the "nature" of some of the shows on TV, or the radio......that's why I also have the "choice" to NOT listen to or watch them, I believe that in today's day and age that there are few, if any houses that don't have a "remote" or two to SWITCH the channels with.

The Division of Wildlife in most states are ran to be as "proffitable" as possible, NOT to "appease" the people that exercise their "choice" to HUNT.....regardless of their choice of weapon. Agree......or disagree, it matters NOT to me. It is a well-known fact, that this is true. As long as they are able to "sell" all the tags they need to, at a price that makes them remain "proffitable".......things will never change. It is sad, but they manage the animals in a way that is........most of the time, NOT in the animals best interest. I believe that the wildlife "BIOLOGISTS" truly do know what is best, but from talking to them and personally knowing several, their hands are tied.

For the sake of hunting as a "whole"....I can only hope and pray that before the tree hugging/bunny lovers figure out how "divided" a lot of "hunters" are, that we can somehow, someway "unite" and agree that population control for our game animals is a necessity and a "benefit" for the animals well-being and longevity on this planet, elsewise our future generations will not have the luxury to pursue them........they will be GONE.

If the method that someone else chooses to pursue their hobby doesn't suit you......instead of "complaining" about the "ethics and morality" of their choice.....when it is legal to do so, just leave it alone and say nothing at all. Sometimes, I have found that if I don't have anything "positive" to say.......I just keep my mouth shut. God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason.....to do twice as much listening as talking.

Just because my #1 choice of hunting is with a traditional bow hasn't nor does it make me ANY better than anyone else that buys their licenses and legally hunts any game animal within the limit of the law. I'm no better, nor worse than anyone else........and don't profess to be. I get so sick and tired of all the "bickering" about crap like this. The truth is that if ANY weapon that any "manufacturer" wanted a state to legalize pours ENOUGH money into making it happen..........it WILL.......whether we agree with it or not. Like it or not.......it always has been and still is......all about the MONEY.

Believe what you may.......I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

Winterhawk1960

[Al Dente]

Just Google "Top Shot" the program that aired on the History Channel.  Look up and view the Archery Episode.  During the first part, the marksmen had to compete with a longbow, very questionable results.  During the second segment, they were given a crossbow.  The "expert" who helped them was Bill Troubridge, a crossbow manufacturer.  His own words, and you can see and hear him speak them for yourself: "The hardest thing about shooting a crossbow, is learning how to cock it"  From one of the marksmen: "Now that's more like it, a flatter trajectory."
First shot was a bullseye.  They all mastered the crossbow instantly, not the same outcome with the longbow.
I must agree with the BS line about "selfish", or "elitist" bowhunters.  Bowhunters lobbied long and hard to be accepted, and had to prove themselves time and time again.  Moreover, here in NY, we do share the woods with small game hunters, and upland bird hunters before the firearms season.  So that line holds no water.  the archery season should be for hand held, hand drawn bows only.