Sinew and Glue

[Wyostikbo]

I've been dreading the hide glue issue, hoping that wasn't the only thing to use. I found a post from Mark Baker last month that says he has abandon hide glue for Tite bond III. Will anybody else jump on his band wagon.
Thanks, Brent

[Lost Arra]

Have you used hide glue or just heard horror stories?      

I know opinions vary but if I was going to use titebond to back a bow for protection I wouldn't go to the trouble of using sinew. Just use rawhide or linen. Works great and it's easy.

If you're going for inducing reflex use hide glue and sinew.      

Good references:

 http://bowyersworkshop.com/sinew.html

 http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/6239
There is one typo. Size the bow with "glue".

[Pat B]

If you have everything ready to go when you start(and a pot of warm water)hide glue ain't so bad. Have your sinew in workable bundles, your glue warm and a wet towel(and a pot of warm water)in a convenient location and it ain't bad.
  I know a few folks that have used TBIII for sinew backed bows and have shot a few of their bows. The bows shot well but I have never seen a comparison of bows using hide glue and TBIII. Pat

[Mark Baker]

Hide glue is still easy to do, just takes a bit more preparation ahead of time.  I like the way hide glue "gels" when applying sinew....helps keep it in place better.

Titebond 3 works well, too.  And the sinew will still work like sinew....lots of folks saying that you can't induce reflex with titebond are dead wrong.   I have only done two bows so far using titebond 3, but all in all, it has several advantages over hide glue, that I can tell.  

Ed Scott...world famous self-bowyer of "Owl Bows" uses titebond 3, and he was the guy that turned me on to try it.  His bows are works of art, and nice shooters to boot.  And the sinew "works" just fine.

[Traxx]

Mark,
When i saw you had posted,on this thread,i just knew,you had talked to Ed about TB3.LOL.
I had the same conversation with him,a couple yrs ago.

[NorthShoreLB]

I'm liking this, I took a lot of heat on the archery sites because I went ahead and tryed a TB III sinewed bow (not quite finished yet) everybody was saying that the sinew would be like a spring encased in cement,...I'm glad I didn't listen too much    

[Mark Baker]

Like I've said...I've only done the two bows.  But haveing done a number of bows in the past with hide glue as well, I really have'nt noticed any difference between the two glues, other than the obvious ones while applying the sinew.  

If you think about it, dried hide glue is just as hard (encasing) as dried titebond, I think, and the "elastic" effects of the sinew seem to be equal in both cases to me.  Both bows I sinewed this past fall took on about 3 inches of reflex while drying over a three week period.  

While you could make the argument perhaps that the "weatherproof" properties of the TB3 may retard the "curing" of the sinew...taking a bit longer to fully dry...you could also argue that the same properties in the glue may also protect it from acquiring moisture from the elements once it reaches full cure.   A big plus, I'm thinking.   Time will tell, and I hope more folks give this a try and let us know.   This was an experiment for me, and I am so far pleased with the results.

Both bows, by the way, are 58" long, nock to nock, and one has already taken a couple deer for me.  The other is a static recurve that really tests the sinews elasticity....as the working limb area is much shorter than the bows dimensions suggest.  After many, many shooting sessions, the bow shows no adverse effects and returns to original profile in short order.  Both bows are mid-sixties in weight.

[John Scifres]

I tried it this past week.  It is very much like hide glue in difficulty of application.  However, the reduced cure time is what has me interested.  I don't feel comfortable working a hide glued bow for about a month.  The rehydration issue also bugs me.  My hide glued bows will lose and gain 10 pounds over the course of time depending on humidity.  I love sinewed bows but that doesn't seem like an optimal situation to me.

Bottom line, sinew is still a giant pain in the arse with either glue.  I just hope for a more stable product from the synthetic glue.  

I have to be in the right frame of mind for sinewing.  The availability of moose sinew has turned out to be the table turner on whether it is worth it.  I doubt I'll ever use deer sinew again.  Which is a shame since I have about 50 tendons right now.

[Mark Baker]

I hear you, John!   I had access to some buffalo back sinew on these bows....

I still would rather have unbacked osage, myself, for hunting, as I really hate processing sinew.   But I have a bunch of shorty staves laying around that I have to do something with, and I don't have enough kids around here anymore, so I guess I'll experiment a bit.

Maybe Justin (treeman) will chime in on this and give us some more insight on his dad's results with TB3.

One thing I have going for me in MT is a dry climate, or at least dryer than most!  So I really don't have the best labratory here for good moisture testing....I'm not gonna commplain though!

[Walt Francis]

I had some doubts about using TBIII but after using it on a bow a few weeks back I am convinced it is not only a viable option, it is much easier.  Also, like Mark, with the access we have to bison and elk back sinew I do not think I will use deer sinew again.

[NorthShoreLB]

Are you guys willing to share the process that you use applying TB III and sinew ?

Thanks in advance

Manny

[Walt Francis]

Manny,
This is the process I used for TB III:  First, Processed the bison back sinew by pulling it back and forth on the handle of my bench vise while holding the ends with two pairs of pliers to loosen it up then pulled it across a bunch of 1 1/4” staples shot through a piece of ¾” plywood.  This acted like a comb, straightening and thinning the all the strands into small bundles.  I didn’t comb the last ½” of one end of the bundle which kept them together for easier handling.  After processing the bundles each one was placed between pages of an old magazine to further organize them.  Next, prepare the back of the bow by roughing it up (I use the side of my #49 file but a hacksaw blade works fine.) then clean it with acetone.  The application process is started by sizing one end of the back of the bow with a thin coat of TB III and allowed to thicken while preparing the sinew and glue.  I first dipped the sinew, one bundle at a time, onto a bowl of water until it is soft and pliable (usually 5-10 seconds) then squeeze the water out between my fingers.  Next submerge the bundle into the bowl containing the glue and leave it there while you wet and soften the next bundle using the water dipping process followed by submerging it into the glue as done with the first bundle.  Now pull out the first bundle, squeeze out the excess glue, and lay it down the middle of the bow and flatten with your finger or a round stick and cut off the ½” of stiff sinew (the part you didn’t separate out).  Wet bundle number three and continue repeating the steps described above until the limb is coved with sinew.  Be sure to flatten out the sinew as you go and after finishing the limb coat the sinew with a light coat of TB III and smooth it out with your finger.  Next, I wrapped mine with light weight gauze because I had recurved limbs and didn’t want the sinew to lift off while it dried.  Now follow the same process for the other limb.  

A couple of notes:
Make sure to overlap the bundles of sinew in a brick like pattern.
The longer the sinew the faster the application goes.  The bison back strap sinew I used reached from the middle of the handle to the tip of the limb on a 60” bow with two bundles when placed end to end.
When finished I placed the tips of the bow on two five gallon pails and hung a half gallon of paint from the handle.  I ended up gaining 1 ½” of additional reflex when the sinew and glue had dried for one week.
The gauze was glued to the back of the sinew and I got it off with a file.  This also roughed up some of the sinew but I had allowed for that during the application process.  The small pieces of sinew that were raised while fileing were placed back down when I glued on the snake skin backing.
Run sinew about half an inch long at the tips of the limbs and fold it over to the front side of each limb and tape or gauze it into place.  This acts as added insurance to keep the sinew from pulling away from the limb.

[Tree man]

Actually Dad uses primarily Titebond II. it seems to take a bit longer to get TB3 thoroughly dry compared to TB2 (plus he buys/uses TBII by the gallon and it costs considerably less than TB3). Both are quite elastic ( I know it SEEMS like concrete when you are sanding it or tapping on it but put a thin ribbon on a non stick surface and peel it up and play with it) Dad has been playing with TB3 as a finish. He has been smoothing the scale plates of snakeskins with it for several years and there are a few bows that have been in service for a couple of years with thinned TB3 finishes.

[NorthShoreLB]

Fantastic !!!....music to my ears, Justin  

Walt, that's exactly How I did mine, the only difference, is that I induced some reflex by stringing backwards and tighten it by putting a stick from the back of the handle to the string.

thanks again

[Art B]

Just curious Manny, what's your average temperature and humidity where you live? Even with using the TB glue with sinew your bow will become a dog in warm weather. -ART B

[John Scifres]

I used moose leg tendons.  They are about 16" long, softer than any other I've tried and much easier to pull apart.  I simply threw the lot of pulled fibers into a bowl of warm water and then pulled them out and squeezed the water out of them.  Then I put them on a paper towel.  As they were losing a bit of the moisture, I sized the back of the bow and then laid the fibers on without additional glue going from handle to tip and overlapping.  Afterwards, I added a bit more glue on top and gently rolled the excess out with my finger moving from tip to handle so I would not pull up any of the fiers.  It seems to have worked but I can't get back to it until this weekend.

[ChristopherO]

Wyostikbo,
I noticed that quote from Mark, also.  I PM'd to him and in Tradgang order was given this information, too.  These men of experience are a valuable source of knowledge.  Thanks, all, for chiming in and giving us your insights.

BTW, once the sinew is dry do you then trim off the excess that is wrapped around the tip and sides of the limbs?  The TTBB's made reference to not tillering until the sinew is applied.  I suspect that those portions of tendon wrapped will be cut off in the tillering process.  Please elaborate.
Christopher

[Mark Baker]

Yes...you can trim off the excess.  Also, some sanding is in order to smooth out the sinew before finish is applied, especially if you are not covering it with some type of backing like snakeskin.  From that point you can get creative with how you finish it.  

On my static, I stopped the sinew at the siyahs...the static portion of the limb, as it does not bend anyway.  I wrapped the end of the sinew at that point to help assure the sinew would not "lift" on such a short working limb.

I usually tiller my bows before sinewing...most of the way, to the point of getting an even bend.  A good even application of sinew will not alter the tiller too much, but final tillering will be required.   Each bow will dictate how much tillering before sinewing, I think.  A shorter bow may not be tillered as much beforehand...as you are relying on the sinew for it's "protection" to a great degree.  Does that make sense?

Nothing really that I can add to what the others have said about application.  Make sure you prep the wood good before gluing (clean it), and also, I like to glue (TB3) at room temp...not cold temps.    Applying sinew is not hard, just really about being organized before you start.  Know how you're going to proceed and have everything ready...and then have fun.

[Wyostikbo]

Thank you guys for all the responses. I can make a much more informed decision now. It sounds like I should have looked around for some back sinew. I have been collecting leg tendons all Fall, my pieces are a lot shorter than Walt describes. But I will get it, just a little longer process.
Thanks, Brent

[phil_des_bois]

Does the curing time is shorter with titebond than with hide glue ?

Can I just use tite bond to weatherproof the sinew hide glued ?

thanks, phil