PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?

[JJB2]

CW, the subject of the thread is, "PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?"  I've yet to read anything in any of your posts that is germane to the topic.  

If you're interested in debating the crossbow's merit as archery tackle, perhaps start a seperate thread.

[Al Dente]

Everyone knows that several well known bowhunters did in fact take shots that in today's day and age are deemed unethical.  That has nothing to do with what PSE claims the TAC 15 is capable of.  I have never heard ANY manufacturer claim that a compound, recurve, longbow or selfbow can do robin-hoods at 100 yards.  And yes, there is a demand for it, as there is a 9 month waiting list for it.  Facts are facts.

I've been fighting this for nearly a decade, and each year the pro-crossbow folks would parade a different "poster child" to tug on emotions, so please refrain for pointing fingers at PBS, when PBS issued a pamphlet with data from the Marlowe Report, and even produced a video about crossbows. With both being based solely on facts, not emotions.

Game agencies are enticed to fill coffers with excise taxes collected from Pittman-Robertson and license sales.  So yes, it is all about the money.  If they cared about management they would help in getting land access, lower bowhunting ages, publicize available programs, and establish better cpmmunication with sportsmen instead of lobbyists.

[Mitch H]

Not jumping into the crossbow debate as it relates to inclusion in archery season, but.......

Tac15`s are in stock in many archery shops and available for immediate purchase.

Tac15`s may be slightly more accurate than most other crossbows, but they are not capable of robin hoods at will.

Compound bows kick the crap out of crossbows in every national archery tournament across this country. When you take a crossbow off the sand bags they are only more accurate for beginning archers, not for experienced vertical bow shooters.

And just for the record, while I have shot several top end crossbows in order to see what the big deal is.....I have never owned one, or hunted with one, and the good Lord willing, I never will. Just not my cup of tea.  

[JCJ]

"Game agencies are enticed to fill coffers with excise taxes collected from Pittman-Robertson and license sales. So yes, it is all about the money. If they cared about management they would help in getting land access, lower bowhunting ages, publicize available programs, and establish better cpmmunication with sportsmen instead of lobbyists."

Al:

That is a wee bit of an over-generalization. As an employee of a state agency I get tired of hearing such nonsense.

Here are just a few initiatives that we have been involved in that benefit bowhunters:

1) To date have acquired 58 state forests encompassing 4 million acres with most being open to public hunting
2) To date have acquired 1.3 million acres of State Wildlife Management Areas open to public hunting
3) Lowered minimum age for bowhunting big game to age 10
4) Lowered minimum draw weight for bows from 40 to 30 pounds
5) Worked with local archery and conservation groups to establish mentored bowhunts for youth and women
6) Worked with local groups to create a model for the use of bowhunting in urban deer control
7) Established an active MN Bowhunter Education Program
8) Granted more than $300,000 to fund a vibrant and active NASP program that today has 370 participating schools with 160,000 youth participants
9) Established the MN Bowhunting and Archery Coalition that meets twice a year with a goal of increasing bowhunting and archery participation
10) Provided more than $200,000 in local archery range development and improvement grants

Furthermore, when it comes to the issue of crossbows I have never once had a lobbyist contact me and try to pressure or bribe me to push the pro-crossbow agenda.

I have spent the last 23 years of my career working for the betterment of hunting and shooting sports. I don't do it for the money of the fame. I do it because I want to do what I can to pass our hunting heritage on to the next generation. And, I take this task very seriously. In the future please think twice before you paint all state game agencies and personnel like myself with such a broad brush!

JCJ

[Al Dente]

From what I have encountered, you are a rare breed and should be commended for your actions and acheivements.  I am speaking from my experiences and it leaves a foul taste in my mouth.  Our (NY) DEC has repeatedly ignored, feigned ignorance, flat out lied and renegged on past compromises to the bowhunters of NYS.  It is always the bowhunters of NYS that have had to pay more for less.  I'll say it again, you should be commended and are a credit to your department.

As far as crossbow inclusion goes and the pro-crossbow Lobby's true agenda, one needs to look no further than PA.  In just a few years you can just about plant a tulip bulb with a crossbow.  They entered under the guise of being utilized by the disabled.  The PGC was told by the pro-crossbow side that they would expect around 400 handicapped crossbow permits.  Well, that first year it was legal for only the disabled hunters to use, the PGC got over 43,000 permit applications.  Due to the wording of basically needing just a doctor's note attesting to your shoulder injury, they had to grant over 21,000 permits that first year.  A far cry from 400 wouldn't you say.  Then year after year, they just kept on chipping away until it finalized into the archery season, the real agenda finally emerged.

Fight it, fight it, fight it.

[Stringwacker]

I think the post made earlier about the discussion straying from the original topic was worth posting. A lot of websites hate crossbow merit discussions because usually it turns into an emotional squabble in about 5 post. This one has not done that however.

My interest was perked by the mentioning of the PBS connection. I am a PBS regular who sits on the anti-crossbow committee as a rather obscure member. I certainly don't talk for the PBS. That being said, I love to look at the data from the various states and I keep journals of trends and follow several states on a year over year basis. I think I was the first to see that several states were not meeting the benchmarks that the crossbow advocacy was using.

The PBS's value I think to the anti-crossbow effort probably involves around it serving as a 'think tank' for ideas that might be useful in various states struggles with the issue. The PBS (nor any other bowhunting organization that is not state based) certainly is not the calvery because these are state issues that have to be worked out on a state level. In other words, the calvery ain't coming so we might as well lace up our own boot straps and do it ourselves.

I do want to say something about the TAC 15 since I've made a connection with the posted topic:) One must realize that wildlife departments don't approve just the crossbow of today; but the one of tomorrow as well. The TAC 15 is advanced beyond it's competition but likely will be a standard met in future years by all manufacturers. I'm going to connect a very interesting video on the TAC 15. I've read the rules and I don't see that I can't. If it's something that shouldn't be done, I trust that someone will delete it.

   

[L. E. Carroll]

Cold Weather

Looking at your profile        :eek:       ... I see your a Canadian, not even an American where this legislation is being proposed and pushed in many of OUR states.. You live as I read it in Manitoba... History has proven just how smart Canada and other British influenced countries are when it comes to shooting choices and peoples rights..              

Gene Carroll
La Center,
Washington State......"USA"

[Mitch H]

Since hunting with a crossbow does not interest me, I am not 100% certain of the exact year, but PA included disabled crossbow usage roughly 18- 20 years ago.

Being a lifelong PA resident, and having the luxury of hunting just about every single day of archery season for most of the last 25 years if I wanted to, I have yet to see a fellow hunter using a crossbow here in PA.

Lots of folks buy them, but it takes a certain mentality to stick with a crossbow or compound for hunting. Even though the learning curve for a new hunter is shorter with the crossbow, the scent control and general hunting methods are still identical. Contrary to what many folks want to believe, the efficiency and effective range are almost identical when comparing the two weapons.

My "guess" is that the folks who buy crossbows and stick with archery season for long at all are folks that already archery hunted anyway and have the patience required for such a short range game.

There is no data available from any of the growing number of states with full crossbow inclusion that show any negative impact on the local herd health. Ohio has been fully inclusive for 33 years now and the sun still rises in the east there.

Whether I take one of my trad bows or one of the compounds when I go hunting, somebody else using a crossbow has no more effect on my hunt than does a fellow hunter with a Howard Hill longbow.  

[Breakfast Boy]

The crossbow isn't a bow.  But it's not a gun either.  Until people learn to recognize it as an entirely different weapon, this argument of it being a gun or a bow will continue to be kicking a dead horse.  Pro-crossbow people and the crossbow manufacturers won't declare it as an entirely different weapon no matter what we anti-crossbow people say.  If they did, then they wouldn't be able to take advantage of what bowhunters have accomplished and our hard work throughout the years.

People who are pro-crossbow need to fight for an actual crossbow hunting license, fight to establish their own seasons, get their own associations, and fight for their own rights instead of riding the coattails of us bowhunters and the primitive seasons we and our predecessors fought so hard for.

[JCJ]

"People who are pro-crossbow need to fight for an actual crossbow hunting license, fight to establish their own seasons"

If the argument in opposition were just about the inclusion of crossbows in the existing archery season your suggestion could be an easy solution. States could just establish a crossbow season, issue a license, and set season dates that run concurrently with existing archery season dates. I doubt such a solution would be more palatable to existing archers in a given state.

That said, I do wish all states with inclusion would issue some type of special identifier to those choosing to utilize a crossbow. This simple change would make it much easier to evaluate impact and  conduct research on their value as a tool in hunter recruitment and retention.

[Kevin Dill]

I dunno guys...to me the battle is clearly about more than the crossbow itself. It's ALL about drawing a line and stopping the intrusion of never-ending technology into bowhunting. The crossbow is not the entire problem. It is a symptom of what's happening within bowhunting seasons and philosophies.

You want to allow a crossbow? How can you argue against laser-projection sights? Can a man with no arms and legs call himself a "bowhunter" just because he devises some way to trigger a device through a blow-straw? Are you okay with your longbow next to a 10 year old who sports the (inevitable) technology to make 100 yard kills with his legal (by definition) device? Where and when would YOU draw the line? Maybe you would let technology carry on to its conclusion...which is an oxymoron, because technology never stops trying to change everything that we do.

I said this over on the PBS forums: Money and opportunity were the driving force behind the decisions to allow crossbows in many of our states. Money can bring things in to our seasons, and it can assuredly take them out, too. Is anyone here naive enough to dispute that? When extreme speed, extreme ease, and extreme technology become the accepted norm...how do we know that our ways won't be portrayed as "archaic", "inhumane", "unrealistic" or "irrelevant"? Can we be considered expendable in the name of advancing the futuristic march of technology in bowhunting?

Hell, even golf has more honored traditions than most of bowhunting. Maybe that's because state's governments don't make up the rules for golf.

[Breakfast Boy]

Well said Mr. Dill.

[Cold Weather]

Originally posted by L. E. Carroll:
Cold Weather

Looking at your profile         :eek:        ... I see your a Canadian, not even an American where this legislation is being proposed and pushed in many of OUR states.. You live as I read it in Manitoba... History has proven just how smart Canada and other British influenced countries are when it comes to shooting choices and peoples rights..                

Gene Carroll
La Center,
Washington State......"USA"

Gene

in Canada we don't have "gun rights"-owning firearms is considered a privledge.

I own 10 firearms-infact I have Browning Arms sending me a Browning TBOLT VARMINT in 17hmr.  I qualified and earned the firearm when I sold x number of XBOLT at my part time work in an outdoor store.

I hold dual citizenship and have an American passport-that gives me the right to comment on laws/regulations in both Canada and the USA.    

if it's about "money" as you alledge-then there is demand.

obviously, many out there want to bowhunt with crossbows.

I can understand why:

a father wants to take his sons/daughters bowhunting but feels they aren't confident with compound/trad equipment.

a man wants to take his wife.  I actually met a woman who would bowhunt with an crossbow because she just felt more confident with it.

just a few examples...

[Cold Weather]

Originally posted by Breakfast Boy:
The crossbow isn't a bow.  But it's not a gun either.  Until people learn to recognize it as an entirely different weapon, this argument of it being a gun or a bow will continue to be kicking a dead horse.  Pro-crossbow people and the crossbow manufacturers won't declare it as an entirely different weapon no matter what we anti-crossbow people say.  If they did, then they wouldn't be able to take advantage of what bowhunters have accomplished and our hard work throughout the years.

People who are pro-crossbow need to fight for an actual crossbow hunting license, fight to establish their own seasons, get their own associations, and fight for their own rights instead of riding the coattails of us bowhunters and the primitive seasons we and our predecessors fought so hard for.

of course it's a bow.  it's called a crossbow.

legitimate archery equipment.

the archery seasons that exist are not YOUR seasons.  I doubt you fought for any of them.  They belong to the State.

the existing archery seasons are not primitive.  Compound bows with 80% let off/releases/laser rangefinders etc.

just where would this new crossbow season come from?  Should we take from the gun season and the archery season and make a crossbow season?

you and others seem to forget that archery and bowhunting are recreational passtimes.  It's not some sacred religion.  It's subject to change-and it has.

and it will continue.

[Kevin Dill]

"the archery seasons that exist are not YOUR seasons. I doubt you fought for any of them. They belong to the State."

I think your lack of true residential citizenship in our United States of America is making itself pretty obvious. You'd know that your passport gives you no additional rights to comment on our laws. Anyone can do that, and a Somalian has just as much rights as you to opinionate. I'm assuming you've not received any secondary or formal schooling on the finer points of American democracy, individual and states' rights. If I'm wrong on that, please accept my apology and enlighten us on your educational background as it pertains to interpretating American law and rights. Growing, living and residing here for a lifetime is just a few shades different from having your papers.

You have my sympathy that your country bestows gun ownership as a "priviledge" only for those it ("it" being your government) deems worthy of having one. I'd like to know how many sportsmen and women in Canada are satisfied with how all that works...especially with handguns for self-defense...

The bowhunting seasons in our individual states are most certainly "ours". "We" are the state. Our people are the state...not the government as may be the case elsewhere. The things that belong to a state belong to her people. That is a sovereign belief and philosophy here. So yes, it's "my" bow season and I have some control over how it's done...through voice and vote.

______________________________________________

"obviously, many out there want to bowhunt with crossbows."

You are 100% correct, and you gave examples. For every example you provide, someone can also show that a lack of understanding and commitment (to bowhunting with hand-drawn & hand-held bows) is behind a large number of crossbow purchases. You can't really legislate against laziness, lack of commitment, poor understanding or questionable ethics. You go for tangible things...like outlawing devices and technology that make killing animals more of a science assignment. The users will despise you of course, but they should scream themselves hoarse.

_______________________________________________

"legitimate archery equipment."

By whose definition? I think you probably meant (or should have) to write "legal" in place of legitimate. It's legal in some areas, but not others. Kudos to those who've beaten the hell out of the dollar-waving special interest groups. I can think of a lot of items that might be called "legitimate archery equipment" by some. You won't see these items in the woods however, because they aren't good for bowhunting and they aren't "legal". I'm guessing TG members can list a couple dozen examples of these items in short order.

[Cold Weather]

Kevin

I worked in the USA for 9 years-paid taxes-and had residency.

I am now considered by the US Government as an American living abroad.

a crossbow is considered archery equipment everywhere.  Perhaps not legal archery equipment-but archery equipment.  Kinda like a 20lb bow is still a BOW although not legal.

I worked as the archery tech for a major outdoor retailer.  I can promise you many who carry compounds and traditional equipment lack committment.

I shot with one girl who refused to use a compound at a 3d-of the 20 targets she hit THREE-and none where kill shots.

that you metion "democracy" is indeed strange, because you seek to prohibit others from engaging in archery in their way-and their way has no impact on your way.  Freedom of choice  and in a recreational activity as well.

interesting enough, a few weeks ago I was talking to a compound bowhunter.  He felt that those who shoot longbows/recurves for hunting should be banned-based on their poor shooting.

now, I totally disagree with him but that's how he felt.

from your above post-it is clear that bowhunting is really not all that tough-because it's all about the shot.

I will remember that next time I bowhunt with my crossbow-and the deer senses movement or discovers me thru scent or noise.

my friend, who is a dedicated longbow archer, missed his deer when he shot at it with his crossbow.  Of course, he enjoys the freedom of choosing equipment as he sees best..

ultmately, what we have here-with a few-is those who self appoint themselves to decide what others use/don't use in a recreational hobby.

and that is not democracy or freedom

[Kevin Dill]

I am glad you paid your taxes and take note that you "had" residency. Quite different from being born, raised, educated and a part of America for your entire life. I excuse you for not really understanding that.

Of course a crossbow is considered archery equipment. So is a bow-mounted lasing rangefinder (by some) but it's still illegal to use in most of "our" states. I appreciate you making my point for me.

Freedom of choice does not mean freedom to do anything you want...unless it's anarchy you're defending. All aspects of hunting weapons are controlled by laws in every state. If you don't stay within the laws (which definitely don't allow everyone to shoot whatever they want while hunting) you're a lawbreaker. Using democracy to defend unending freedom to choose is actually rather simplistic. Democracy gives you a voice and a vote. If you get voted down, you lose.

I think you can probably spare us the stories of little girls, fathers with children, handicapped veterans and all the other teary-eyed dogma of what makes crossbows so endearingly special to some folks. PETA has tried the same strategies to make us feel sorry for animals. It's old.

I'm always rather amazed...I have to chuckle...that people can only see this as a "crossbow" issue. It isn't. It's just that the crossbow (for many) is the "line in the sand" that represents excessive ease and technology. The crossbow (and users) are the whipping child of those who would stop endless technology. Of course crossbow users will scream...and loudly. As soon as you say "NO" to anyone, they'll likely behave that way. I'd be disappointed if it didsn't happen. We're not going to agree, so someone loses and will be unhappy.


"ultmately, what we have here-with a few-is those who self appoint themselves to decide what others use/don't use in a recreational hobby."

Well, you're not exactly correct. We fight for what we believe is good and right. We fight for what is ours. Remember "our" bow seasons? We don't get to decide what others use/don't use. We get to have a voice and a vote. Please go back and re-read this paragraph.

Then you may be on your way to grasping what democracy means, and what freedoms it gives us.

[Mitch H]

I am a lifelong US resident, and have an excellent grasp on how democracy works. :smile:

I also realize that the most modern crossbow is VERY similar in performance to the modern compound bow. They both have pro`s and con`s as they relate to hunting. As a healthy individual, it is my firm belief that a crossbow handicaps me in more hunting situations than it ever would help me.....that is why I choose a compound bow when I feel that my ability with a recurve or longbow falls short of what I need for a specific scenario.

That said, I understand that both the compound and crossbow utilize stored energy in bent limbs transferred to an arrow via synthetic string material, and it is released via a trigger mechanism.

Since the only argument towards crossbows is the one pertaining to hunting, then the anti-crossbow inclusion crowd has legitimate talking points regarding shot process differences between crossbows and compounds. Hunting process is 99% identical. By FAR the biggest advantage a crossbow has over a compound bow if that it does not have to be drawn in the presence of game. Without going into the modern compounds effective letoff`s of up to 99%, lets just say that drawing in the presence of game is a fairly easily learned hunting trait. If this farmboy was able to successfully draw in the presence of more than 200 big game animals......how hard can it be?

As far as who is losing and who is winning.......when we fight with emotion instead of facts, there tends to be hard feelings. That is a loss for both sides. Crossbows will eventually be included in all state archery seasons. Advancing technology can always be legislated out of the hunting field, but as they stand now, there is no legitimate reason to include a compound but exclude a crossbow.

Again, this is from a lifelong US citizen who killed his first whitetail buck with a recurve bow over 37 years ago. A citizen who never wants to use a crossbow, and has never made a single red cent from crossbows.

The sky is not falling, and crossbows are not the devils spawn. They are simply another method to launch an arrow with energy from a set of bent limbs.  

[dnovo]

Kevin, Thanks for your literacy in expressing points that many of us cannot verbalize properly.
Good job.

[JJB2]

Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
I said this over on the PBS forums: Money and opportunity were the driving force behind the decisions to allow crossbows in many of our states. Money can bring things in to our seasons, and it can assuredly take them out, too. Is anyone here naive enough to dispute that? When extreme speed, extreme ease, and extreme technology become the accepted norm...how do we know that our ways won't be portrayed as "archaic", "inhumane", "unrealistic" or "irrelevant"? Can we be considered expendable in the name of advancing the futuristic march of technology in bowhunting?

Kevin hit the nail on the head.  Most are missing the underlying, but very real, issue here.  Once the technology lobby has the pen, what's to keep them from writing traditional archery out of bow season?  

They commission a few studies that "prove" how inefficient traditional equipment is in comparison, show some momentum and penetration tables that compare the equipment types, include a few pictures of wounded game and bingo...no more traditional bows in archery season.  The ATA manufacturers don't make squat off us as is and the few that do put out some trad equipment would likely be glad to cut their low volume / low margin trad hunting bow lines and reinvest those dollars in compounds (which have an almost annual purchase cycle now, meaning that compound users buy new bows nearly every year as the technoloy "advances", which means they buy new bows about 100x's more often than we do and are much more brand loyal...ultimately meaning that they mean more in the way of dollars and cents to manufacturers), or they could invest in their new crossbow lines.

It's NOT JUST ABOUT THE CROSSBOW, it's the "next step" in derivating from what bowhunting was meant to be, that it represents, that poses the issue.

First the line was you have to pull and hold it back with your own strength, now the line has been moved to it just has to have "limbs", next will be that "there just has to be something that resembles an arrow involved."  If we don't get involved and try and help mold our state policies than someone that doesn't represent our interest may eventually choose to write us out.  It's really as simple as that.