PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?

[JCJ]

"Most are missing the underlying, but very real, issue here. Once the technology lobby has the pen, what's to keep them from writing traditional archery out of bow season?"

I'll bet very similar arguments were made by bowhunters when the compound came on the scene. They have been around for years. Their technology becomes more advanced and efficient each year. No one has written our less efficient traditional archery equipment out of bow season. You know what happens if you start crying wolf too often, people quit listening.

Rather than trying to fight with fear, value based rhetoric, and unsubstantiated facts, put you effort into research that directly links crossbows to a decrease in archery participation and archery license sales. Show this in not just one or two, but multiple states, so that the data has statistical significance and indicates a trend.

Use a neutral research firm that is trusted by both State Agencies and the Industry so that you are not accused of biasing the results.

Very few state agencies will knowingly make a change to regulations that have been shown through scientific, sound statistically significant research, to result in decreased hunting participation and reduced license revenue.

[Greg PBS]

K-Dill, you say it well. It is hard to argue with those who do not respect what our forefathers won for us in the 30's, 40's and 50's.

I think that if you do not have history then you cannot understand what we are losing. CW has no concept of what a state that has recently lost it's archery only season to crossbows when the majority of bowhunters in the state oppose them.

When the NABC comprised of some 80+ State and Provencial bowhunting organizations as well as the P&Y, PBS, and Compton Traditional Bowhunters opposes the use of the crossbow in "Archery" hunting seasons. It is obvious that the ATA and the crossbow industry is using $$$ to make it happen at the state level.

Not one state bowhunting organization has asked for the inclusion of the crossbow, not one!! Frankly CW we're tire of the static coming from those inside the industry telling us we need to like it. We don't and won't.

Kevin Dill, keep up the good posts!

Greg

[Mitch H]

WOW! Fellow long standing bowhunters that disagree with you do not "respect" and cannot "understand" what we are losing?

You are correct on one front.......no state bowhunting org. that I am aware of has asked for crossbow inclusion. I was able to speak to my states president personally before inclusion came to PA and voice my absolute disagreement with the orgs stance. And during the conversation there was no viable factual presentation of of ANY evidence that crossbow inclusion will harm herd health or hunting experience in any way, shape, or form.

That said, I still pay my dues to my state org., and donate additional funds each year. One wrong does not mean you throw the baby out with the bath water.

Also, this $$$$ thing at the state level seems to be a universal talking point. Is there any proof of bribery and/or collusion for us to see?

I am a 70% trad hunter, 30% compound hunter, and hopefully NEVER a crossbow hunter, but crossbows simply are not our enemy. Nor have they caused an issue in any of the rapidly growing number of states that have accepted them.

[Greg PBS]

Ok, let's try this. For thanksgiving we're going to start roasting lambs...Wiat that would screw with a great American tradition. We have fly only areas on prime trout streams yet those traditional "Quality" areas are sacred and set aside from the masses.

Our bowseasons are traditions that were fought for and won through hard work of Archers who wanted a BOWseason, not crossbowmen wanting one. I've seen fit men cheat to get a doctors slip so they could use a crossbow, the excuse was shoulder issues or what ever in reality no need to practice was the bigger reason.

Of course no need for that now as here in Michigan we have them all inclusive now. It was supposed to be a 3 year study that ended up bing one season they're in, basically we were told to shut up it's over.

If you like them Mitch good for you, but I think you already know you are a minority of bowhunters, the VAST majority of us oppose them and that is just a fact of life

[Mitch H]

I do not "like" them Greg. I have already stated that I have zero intention of ever using one.  

I just do not fear them. I have gone out and shot them to see what the big deal is......and there is no big deal. They do not make it magically easier for a physically fit person to hunt successfully with.

If you want to talk about old time traditions, lets just take on the compounds too.    In terms of ease of use, compounds and crossbows are quite similar. As you well know, compounds and recurves/longbows are light years apart in terms of ease of use.

Of course crossbowmen did not lobby for the seasons we now enjoy.......crossbows were almost unheard of back then.

BTW, the VAST majority of bowhunters do not oppose them. The vast majority of bow hunters polled in the right setting oppose them.

Also, I sure am in the minority. Well under 10% of the US population hunts, and the percentage of US citizens that hunt with traditional archery gear is probably less than 1%.

Lastly, I too know people that have used BS reasons to get a Dr.`s note to use a crossbow. Having broken my back, shattered my left elbow, then later nearly completely severed my left arm at the armpit, I could have gotten that note 24 years ago. I chose to continue with a vertical bow as conditions permitted.

Those folks that used bogus excuses in order to get a crossbow permit.........the weapon does not make the ethics. The person makes his/her own choices.

OK, this really is the last thing.......   :D

If you want to roast a lamb for thanksgiving, I am happy for you brother.   :cool:  We will stick with the turkey here at crossbow headquarters.  

[Stringwacker]

Just taking a few points from several post...

The crossbow is similar in some ways to a compound bow....and as was stated earlier is not similar in others. The point to be made is while they may be similar, they certainly aren't the same; oherwise these conversations wouldn't be happening all over America. In addition, the crossbow offers more than just not having to draw in the presence of game, it also offers a mechanical load mechanism that no longer depends on the archers natural strength...therefore the development potential is light years ahead of the compound bow. If we all really buy in to this type of argument of things that are similar should be legal to, we probably will have some firearm ethusiast talking about their preferred weapon choice, their close range limitations (pistols?) and their right to the woods after a few more years of technological advancements in the crossbow. String propelled criteria likely will be no more of a barrier to to their wants and expectations.... as the current anti-crossbow position that hand held, hand draw seperates us from crossbow legitamcy. The bottom line is that you can leap frog your weapon choice into eternity if you base your decisions on 'almost the same' rhetoric.

Compound bows were legalize in all states in a 5 year period of time. Crossbows are included in likely still less than half of the states archery seasons....after almost 4 decades of legalization efforts, Again, likely not the same issues at play and to tie them together seems overly simplistic and short sighted.

Crossbows are often described as archery weapons and that fact qualifies them as 'bow' season legal. Uzi's are firearms; yet they are illegal for firearm season use. All weapons have context regardless of the classification.

The crossbow is certainly not the issue per se'; but rather is the first symptom of the rethinking of the value of archery seasons in America. A metamorphisis of traditions, policies, and culture is taking place.

Lastly, state wildlife departments are understanding that the future isn't bright. They understand that revenues are falling and they have to run the departments like a business. In addition to crossbows, they are creating more user fees or whatever to keep people employed and the game management departments open. While the demand for the crossbow in archery seasons seems very low, they are enticed to legalize it to see a few more licenses. Yet, I truly believe that among the actual users of archery season; those that made investments in bows, developed skill sets to shoot them, purchased archery licenses etc...in other words took advantage of a season that was open to everyone; they resent the intrusion. People don't make decisions based on logical facts. They make decisions on how they feel about something and THEN search for the facts that logical concludes to their beliefs. In this manner, bowhunters view themselves closer to 'customers' of wildlife agencies rathers than 'subjects'. They resent change forced upon an archery season that they did not ask for. Hence a 40 years debate on a weapon that continues as a year by year slugfest.

[Kevin Dill]

Excellent, excellent post Stringwacker. Thanks.


I will say it this way: There is a battle out there regarding the crossbow. It is just one battle over one technology-driven advancement.

There is a WAR being waged against the continued advancements of technology into bow hunting.

Sure there will be casualties. Guys can't hunt with crossbows in certain states. Others can't use laser-projection devices, electrically-assisted gadgets, certain mechanical broadheads, air-driven projectiles, ad nauseum. Wherever the line is drawn, someone will instantly step up and scream "UNFAIR!"...followed by a dozen descriptions of how un-American and un-democratically they are being treated. "You let them have this!....Why can't we have that?" This happens no matter where you set a limit. You cave and set another limit...same result. The push is unending.

 Get out of thinking in the present tense. Decide what you think is best for the future of bowhunting. Go draw the line in your state(s). Draw your own personal line. Don't worry about whose feelings get hurt or who's screaming from behind a fence. Do what you think is right and keep the big picture in mind.

If you happen to blacken someone's eye (proverbially speaking) at least you stood up and did something. Congratulations!

[Kevin Dill]

...and one extra thought:

Guys who say there is no appreciable difference between a modern compound and a modern crossbow are intentionally blind. If such were the case, hunters in my home state of Ohio wouldn't be abandoning their compounds in favor of crossbows...which statistics PROVE kill more deer here than compounds and "normal" bows combined.

The similarity argument is a smokescreen.

[Greg PBS]

The fact that the proponents of the crossbow discount the PSE TAC4 Crossbow are denying that the industry will not bridge that gap with a product that will reach the price point needed to sell to the masses.

They also do not bring forth the reality that the Parker auto-cocking crossbow is now available. Keeping in mind that the technology is in its infancy and that the 6-8 second cycle time will be reduced to less than a second sooner than later. The patent for the auto-loading crossbow has been filed and we will see it likely next year at the ATA show.

So if you want to stick your collective heads in the sand and claim the Compound bow, hand drawn and held is just like a crossbow you are blind to the reality we are living in.

They are as different as the selfbow is to a compound with the exception that both are hand drawn and held.

[Al Dente]

I give PSE a lot of credit for actually demostrating what the TAC 15 is capable of.  In fact, Mr. Pennix actually refers to it as a gun for the first half of the demostration video from the SHOT show.  

Kevin, you are correct.  Crossbow hunters outnumber bowhunter 3-2 during Ohio's "archery" season.  So they do in fact have a dramatic impact on harvest totals.

Greg, very well stated.  Hand held, hand drawn bows.  

If available, through a Modified Archer's Permit, a Draw-Loc device for those physically challenged.  Attached to their own, existing tackle instead of purchasing a new crossbow.  Options are available, but fall on mostly deaf ears.

[Mitch H]

It took roughly 30 years of full inclusion for Ohio to get to a 3-2 harvest ratio in favor of crossbows.

Due to the method of data collection/tracking Ohio uses, there is no way to tell how different overall harvest rates would be if there were no crossbows permitted. It is a safe bet that many of the crossbow hunters would use compound bows if crossbows were illegal. Data from other states that have included crossbows clearly show us that huge influx`s of new archery hunters just does not happen.

BTW, how is Ohio`s deer herd doing since the crossbows full inclusion in 1978?

As far as the Tac 15, if ANY weapon evolves to the point where it is head and shoulders more effective than its peer`s, state laws can easily regulate it`s use. Some states still have letoff restrictions for compounds.

If you think the PSE is too accurate, go get one, practice up, and when you are ready give me one weeks notice to blow the dust of of a compound bow and warm up. We can go head to head on a Vegas round. You can even get the winner of the crossbow division in Vegas to shoot for you.  

I will win......crossbows are just not tack drivers once they come off the sand bags.

Draw loc.......please explain why that would me a morally and ethically better choice?  

[Kevin Dill]

If there were no crossbows in Ohio, the archery season harvest rate would undoubtedly decline, which simply proves the overall effectiveness and preference for crossbows and additional technology for killing animals. Ohio's deer herd is just fine, but that is not what's at stake and is often just another "smokescreen" non-issue often used to defend the introduction of more technology.  

For years we've heard this stuff:

"You've got 3 million deer in _____ state, so why can't we introduce the auto-cocking, auto-loading, laser rangefinding, multi-reticle, air-assisted crosssomething"? You want to know why not? Because someone is going to stand up and say "No...I won't let you do it without a fight, because I think it will cause long-term damage to the sport". If you disagree and you don't like it....lace up your gloves and get in the fight.  

What if we said to them...."If I let you have your little Tac 15, do you promise to be a good boy and not bother me any more? Do you promise to be satisfied"?

Anybody want to predict how that scenario plays out?

[Greg PBS]

Mitch, in our state they do not "regulate" they assimilate. When they allowed them 2 years ago they put a 325fps speed limit on them… Yeah well the CO’s didn’t want to deal with doing the chrono work, sooo they don’t deal with it. Same when they said muzzle loaders had to have an exposed action….right that lasted about 3 years. Move over law Thompson Center needs to sell Contenders in MI too!

What they will likely do is tell bowhunters to share the rest of the 45 days of the former 77 day season with muzzleloaders and shotguns as we do now.

Bow season is hardly bow season anymore in our state.

As far as Ohio, look back 10 years and see how far forward the crossbow has come in that short period of time. When Ohio added them in the high tech rig was a 150lb. Prod Barnett Banshee with pin sights.

Now Mitch as far as your skills with the compound, I would wager a bet you are likely better than 75% of the compound shooters nationally, by your braggadocios remarks. That being said take the average bow-toter and hand them a crossbow and the pendulum swings way in your direction. Add to the argument that you recognize the advantage of resting the crossbow on a bench or rail and you really do have a tack driving machine.

So dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator and the crossbow is a game changer even you should be able to see that.

[Mitch H]

Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
If there were no crossbows in Ohio, the archery season harvest rate would undoubtedly decline, which simply proves the overall effectiveness and preference for crossbows and additional technology for killing animals. Ohio's deer herd is just fine, but that is not what's at stake and is often just another "smokescreen" non-issue often used to defend the introduction of more technology.    

For years we've heard this stuff:

"You've got 3 million deer in _____ state, so why can't we introduce the auto-cocking, auto-loading, laser rangefinding, multi-reticle, air-assisted crosssomething"? You want to know why not? Because someone is going to stand up and say "No...I won't let you do it without a fight, because I think it will cause long-term damage to the sport". If you disagree and you don't like it....lace up your gloves and get in the fight.    

What if we said to them...."If I let you have your little Tac 15, do you promise to be a good boy and not bother me any more? Do you promise to be satisfied"?

Anybody want to predict how that scenario plays out?

Overall effectiveness and additional technology? The only advantage a crossbow offers a physically fit hunter is no drawing in the presence of game(which is an easily learned skill) and ease of marginal accuracy for a rookie hunter.

In a perfect world I would love to see archery hunters use vertical bows, practice several times a week, and be MUCH more selective in their shot taking. Hunting has become a management tool for wildlife departments. In many states archery hunting simply cannot come remotely close to needed harvest numbers. Would you rather share the hunting woods with a relatively quiet and short range weapon like a crossbow, or have the state wildlife division bring in the bang sticks during "our" season?

Would Ohio harvest rates decline if crossbows were removed from the legal weapons list? My guess is "absolutely". I do not think it would decline a lot though. Most crossbow hunters came from vertical bow hunters, and they would go back to the compound before they would quit hunting.

[Al Dente]

Just to see the effectiveness of a crossbow, look at the test that Mike Brust of WI conducted using a borrowed Durango.  In a short time frame he was grouping 5 bolts within 4" at 100 yards.  I seriously doubt that anyone can do the same with a borrowed compound, in the same time frame at the same distance.

There is a zero learning curve, not just me saying it, this is coming right from the mouth of Bill Troubridge, owner of Excalibur crossbows.

And then there is this quote from him as well: "The hardest thing about shooting a crossbow is learning how to cock it."  Don't believe me, Goolge TopShot and see him speak those words for yourself.  It doesn't get any plainer than that.  Factor in the auto-cocking Parker Concorde, and even the hardest part is now eliminated.

[Al Dente]

As far as the Draw-Loc OPTION, it is simply that, an OPTION.  One that the pro-crossbow folks, and certain game agencies do not promote or want physically challenged bowhunters to know about.  It has nothing to do with morals or ethics, unless of course you want to push a product  for profit, without informing the public about the OPTIONS that are available to them. Our own game agency does not even own a Draw-Loc to demonstrate, nor do they promote the Permits available to those with disabilities.  So, the moral code of conduct and ethical performance are not compromised by the bowhunters, rather those in favor of a crossbow, when it comes to promotion.

To purchase and install a Draw-Loc costs bewteen 100-150 dollars, that's a far cry from the cost of a new crossbow don't you think?  No wonder the OPTIONS are not promoted.

[Kevin Dill]

 

"Would you rather share the hunting woods with a relatively quiet and short range weapon like a crossbow, or have the state wildlife division bring in the bang sticks during "our" season?"

Considering that archery as a whole cannot manage a state's wildlife, removing the crossbow (highly unlikely once the fox is inside the henhouse) would not send anyone's deer herd into critical mass. Particularly if your point, "Most crossbow hunters came from vertical bow hunters, and they would go back to the compound before they would quit hunting" is accurate.

For me...I'd like to not share the woods with people using a physics experiment for a weapon and finding some obscure reason to attach -bow to the name. I used to think that long range rifle hunters were the confused and emotionless tacticians of the hunting world...but now I'm starting to think of them as better for hunting with than some (excuse the over-qualification) "archery" hunters.

I know the argument is unending. We can point and counter-point everything to the grave. It's really about who's going to put up the best and most effective fight for what they want...and it will involve money. This is usually the point at which I say "Stop talking and start walking".

 

[Mitch H]

Originally posted by Greg PBS:
Mitch, in our state they do not "regulate" they assimilate. When they allowed them 2 years ago they put a 325fps speed limit on them… Yeah well the CO’s didn’t want to deal with doing the chrono work, sooo they don’t deal with it. Same when they said muzzle loaders had to have an exposed action….right that lasted about 3 years. Move over law Thompson Center needs to sell Contenders in MI too!

What they will likely do is tell bowhunters to share the rest of the 45 days of the former 77 day season with muzzleloaders and shotguns as we do now.

Bow season is hardly bow season anymore in our state.

As far as Ohio, look back 10 years and see how far forward the crossbow has come in that short period of time. When Ohio added them in the high tech rig was a 150lb. Prod Barnett Banshee with pin sights.

Now Mitch as far as your skills with the compound, I would wager a bet you are likely better than 75% of the compound shooters nationally, by your braggadocios remarks. That being said take the average bow-toter and hand them a crossbow and the pendulum swings way in your direction. Add to the argument that you recognize the advantage of resting the crossbow on a bench or rail and you really do have a tack driving machine.

So dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator and the crossbow is a game changer even you should be able to see that.

Hopefully I can address most of the points you made Greg. If I miss any it is not on purpose.  

I am not familiar with Michigans game management policies, but the 325fps limit that "was" on crossbows seems outdated when you consider that you have compound hunters flinging arrows well over 350fps, an in some cases around 370fps.

As far as sharing parts of the season with firearms, that has happened here in PA too. We have inline seasons and youth rifle seasons mixed in with archery at certain times. Do I like that? Heck no, but one is for hunter recruitment, and the other is for deer management. Bow hunters simply do not kill enough animals to make the division of wildlife happy.

BTW, that old Barnett 150lb crossbow you speak of is less efficient than most 125lb crossbows today. Like compounds, technology marchs on.

Also, Ohio di not include crossbows a short time ago. It has been 33 years since full inclusion, and while crossbows account for more deer annually than compounds, success rates are just about identical.

My remarks about taking on a crossbow is not bragging in any way, just stating that compounds are more accurate in the hands of a skilled archer. Look up the 2011 Vegas results......shooting the same target, at the same distance, 129 compound shooters bested the winning crossbow score. That 129 number was just in one class. Many hundreds of compound shooters in the various classes bested the top crossbow shooter. Strap a compound into a hooter shooter and watch it pummel the Tac 15 off the sandbags.

Yes, you can use a rest sometimes while hunting with a crossbow.....as long as the animal cooperates by walking into the right spot. If making the game easier is an issue, why do we use camo clothing, cover scents, lures, decoys, calls, rattling, food plots, etc., but using a crossbow is too far? Using a compound is insanely easy if one has the mental ability to control themselves when it is game time. Once one has practiced enough to be good, it does not take much practice at all to maintain a fairly high skill level. It is nothing like using a traditional bow.

We are all bow hunters here Greg, and I bet that we would all get along just fine in camp. We just have differing opinions on what the real threats are to our hunting future.

BTW, I met a group of PBS members in Quebec a few years back on a bear hunt. One hunter not in their group showed up with a crossbow. After that hunter left the group leader for the PBS guys declared if he ever saw another crossbow in camp that he would not bring his gang back anymore. He was livid. Last year(spring 2010) guess who showed up with a crossbow? LOL

Granted, age and bad shoulders forced him away from his recurve, but I had to prod him a little bit about his crossbow after showing him the video of my recurve bear kill. :wink:

It is OK if you folks want to think I am related to the devil.    I hunt a lot, and in a lot of places. There is a good chance we may meet in a camp someday, and you will see that I am an OK guy that just does not share your concern over a piece of equipment.  

[JCJ]

Mark:

I was just reviewing the Anti-Crossbow language on the PBS website and I came across this: "There are crossbow bills in Texas, South Carolina, New Jersey, Minnesota, and Illinois."

Please advise your webmaster that there needs to be an update. I can't speak for the other states but there has not been potential crossbow legislation in MN since at least 2008.

Thanks,

JCJ

[Greg PBS]

Mitch what camp was that? who was the former PBS member. You can PM me. I'm just curious and wanting to know the facts as anyone can make a story that works for thier argument..

Greg