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Author Topic: PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?  (Read 6943 times)

Offline Mitch H

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Greg, one thing I never do is make up stuff to fit my discussion points.

The gentlemans last name is escaping me right this moment, but I will remember it in short order.

His first name is Ron, he is well into his 70`s, a stocky guy with gray hair, and very active in the Maryland bowhunters.

I forgot to take my memory pills again this morning, so it may be a little bit before I recall his name.   ;)


BTW, I met some other PBS members in the main camp last year as well. I do not recall their names, but they were regulars at that camp, and darn nice guys. On of them killed a MONSTER bear for Quebec just a couple of years ago.....nearly 500lbs.
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Offline Kevin Dill

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Mitch,

It's probably worth pointing out that PBS' position on the crossbow is that they (we) are officially on the record as opposing their use and inclusion during the regular archery season(s). No PBS member is ever asked to swear allegiance to this position, or even to support it. If one is a PBS member and against crossbows in archery season...great. If not...that's not a deal-breaker. I'm pretty darned sure there are a lot of NRA, SCI, P&Y, B&C etc members who don't agree with every position of their organization. I'm just as sure that the organizations don't demand that every member walk the "straight and narrow". Example: There are plenty of PBS folks who use firearms for hunting during the year, and during the appropriate seasons. I'm one of them.

The guy you've described sounds like he's guilty of shooting off his mouth perhaps. Hypocrites are nothing new to any organization, as you of course understand. All the above named groups have had their share of embarrassments, and still their good work continues.

Glad you met some good guys in bear camp.   :)

Offline Mitch H

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I agree completely Kevin.  :)  And re-reading my comment shows me that it "could" have been taken as a slight against the PBS. Nothing could be further from my mind. I do not think of the gentleman I mentioned as a hypocrite, just a man that is doing what he has to in order to continue hunting.

As far as the other PBS members I met in camp........turns out it is a small world indeed.  ;)
Gerhart recurve
1960 Bear Grizzly
 Wes Wallace Mentor
Dave Miller "Old Mahoning" Hybrid Longbow

People that are not willing to stand up for what is right, deserve no protection from those that will!

Offline Cold Weather

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Quote
Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
I am glad you paid your taxes and take note that you "had" residency. Quite different from being born, raised, educated and a part of America for your entire life. I excuse you for not really understanding that.

Of course a crossbow is considered archery equipment. So is a bow-mounted lasing rangefinder (by some) but it's still illegal to use in most of "our" states. I appreciate you making my point for me.

Freedom of choice does not mean freedom to do anything you want...unless it's anarchy you're defending. All aspects of hunting weapons are controlled by laws in every state. If you don't stay within the laws (which definitely don't allow everyone to shoot whatever they want while hunting) you're a lawbreaker. Using democracy to defend unending freedom to choose is actually rather simplistic. Democracy gives you a voice and a vote. If you get voted down, you lose.

I think you can probably spare us the stories of little girls, fathers with children, handicapped veterans and all the other teary-eyed dogma of what makes crossbows so endearingly special to some folks. PETA has tried the same strategies to make us feel sorry for animals. It's old.

I'm always rather amazed...I have to chuckle...that people can only see this as a "crossbow" issue. It isn't. It's just that the crossbow (for many) is the "line in the sand" that represents excessive ease and technology. The crossbow (and users) are the whipping child of those who would stop endless technology. Of course crossbow users will scream...and loudly. As soon as you say "NO" to anyone, they'll likely behave that way. I'd be disappointed if it didsn't happen. We're not going to agree, so someone loses and will be unhappy.


"ultmately, what we have here-with a few-is those who self appoint themselves to decide what others use/don't use in a recreational hobby."

Well, you're not exactly correct. We fight for what we believe is good and right. We fight for what is ours. Remember "our" bow seasons? We don't get to decide what others use/don't use. We get to have a voice and a vote. Please go back and re-read this paragraph.

Then you may be on your way to grasping what democracy means, and what freedoms it gives us.
Kevin

you might want to educate some of the members on this forum.

they actually believe a crossbow isn't a type of bow and that because it's called a CROSSBOW-it isn't a bow.  Hmmm..longbows are called are bows too.  ;)  

I use a laser rangefinder with my compound bow and also my crossbow.

bow seasons are not my season-or anyone's season.  They belong to the state or province.

excessive ease with a crossbow?  you mean the crossbow allows it to be easy to bowhunt?  I actually shoot better with my compounds than my crossbow.

again, you seem to not realize we are talking about a recreational sport here.  Just because something is hard or even not hard does not entitle one to participate in it.

I really don't see this is a THEM (crossbow users) and US (traditional bowhunters etc.)  Many traditional bowhunters will also use the crossbow as they shoot compounds right now.

having choice, or more choice creates opportunity for everyone.
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Offline Cold Weather

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Kevin

you mentioned about standing up for what is right.

I know a guy who hunts with a compound who feels that trad bowhunters have no business in the woods hunting because their shooting is so poor and that their bows are ineffective.

he believes they should be outright banned.

while I don't share that view-I think we can agree if an archery accuracy test to qualify for bowhunting of say..9" plate at 20yards..it would disqualify a number of trad bowhunters.

I really don't understand why you make issue with myself being an American or even not.  It is regardless of the discussion.

and, no I wouldn't agree with you if I was educated in the USA-born in the USA-lived in the USA.
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Offline Kevin Dill

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Hi CW,

"bow seasons are not my season-or anyone's season. They belong to the state or province."

Again, I'm sorry for your confusion and powerlessness. Maybe you should have lived longer in the USA and taken some ownership.

_________________________________________________


"Many traditional bowhunters will also use the crossbow as they shoot compounds right now."

Why not take an impartial poll and find out how many "many" is? Do it right here on TG. We'll all watch the results.

________________________________________________


"I think we can agree if an archery accuracy test to qualify for bowhunting of say..9" plate at 20yards..it would disqualify a number of trad bowhunters."

Using your logic, the only qualification to have a driver's license would be "the ability to drive a car down a road". There's just a little bit more to it than that.

I think I can agree that if accuracy was the only criteria for being a qualified hunter (bow or firearm) a significant percentage of hunters would never make it to the woods. Now, if we based qualification to hunt on things like knowledge and understanding of ALL aspects of taking an animal's life, an entirely different group of people would be disqualified. I'm thinking the "instant archery hunter" wouldn't cut the mustard.

It is the "instant accuracy = instant success" mindset that puts crossbows and other technology on the front of retail shelves. There happens to be many who believe that just because you "can" shoot a projectile into an animal doesn't mean you "should". That's why some states have mandatory hunter education. Incidentally, it wasn't the governments that wanted hunter education...it was pushed by hunters (responsible ones) who were heard and had their way. They changed "their" laws and "their seasons.
  ________________________________________________


"I really don't understand why you make issue with myself being an American or even not. It is regardless of the discussion."

I seem to recall that you weighed in on an issue that pertains to how the PBS interacts with state organizations regarding crossbow initiatives. I don't mind that you have an opinion on that. I'm pretty certain that you have a distorted outlook (not sure where that originates) on who owns what, and who comprises the State here in the United States. I don't advise you to apply your interpretation of things you "think" you understand, and then presume to lecture the American members of this site with statements like, "bow seasons are not my season-or anyone's season. They belong to the state or province." That kind of behavior will not endear you to the country that you used to temporarily reside in. I do understand where your confusion comes from, but can't do a darned thing to help you there.
  ;)  


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"and, no I wouldn't agree with you if I was educated in the USA-born in the USA-lived in the USA."

Of course you wouldn't. I wouldn't have it any other way, either. We'd disagree and I would use whatever influence I had to defeat a technology-driven agenda. That's how democracy works here. You don't get a free crossbow pass just because you think you're entitled. Sorry if that hurts.

________________________________________________

"Kevin

you might want to educate some of the members on this forum."

Not a chance Skippy. I happen to believe they are all very capable of understanding the issues. A few hundred members are reading this thread every day. If you'd like to talk down to them, and presume to "educate" them, I invite you to do just that. We're waiting....

Offline J.F. Miller

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wow. nicely stated, Kevin.   :thumbsup:
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled." Mark Twain

Offline Kevin Dill

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Jamie...you're every bit the wise communicator. Always like hearing your viewpoints!


CW...appreciate yours too.   :)  

"they actually believe a crossbow isn't a type of bow and that because it's called a CROSSBOW-it isn't a bow. Hmmm..longbows are called are bows too."

What's in a name? A peanut isn't a nut. A pronghorn antelope isn't an antelope. Government Intelligence is an oxymoron to some. Crossbows can just as easily be accurately named Stringguns. The name is relatively unimportant. As said before...Take any piece of technology and add "-bow" to the end of the name, and many will automatically think it qualifies for bow hunting. That is relatively short-sighted and self-serving. The manufacturers and market place depend on automatic inclusion and acceptance. The sheep will always want new grass.

_______________________________________________


"having choice, or more choice creates opportunity for everyone."

Not so. That is simply liberalist thinking and dogma with no controls applied. It borders on simple propaganda. Some folks think they should have the right ("choice") to do whatever it is that pleases them, and any effort to control or moderate that is somehow just unfair. "Communist Dictatorship"!! How can more choice be bad? I really think you are smart enough to sit down and list 50 different scenarios in which "choice" for everyone would result in chaos.

Maybe this comes down to a conservative vs liberal perspective (on hunting regs). I have no problem with that characterization. I'm conservative in my views on hunting and what's best for it in the long term. If that means the occasional battle fought, just as fine. Bruises heal. Democracy works for me. Slowing down...retarding...affecting...damaging the inclusion of unrestricted technology into my bowhunting seasons is a worthy goal.

Offline JCJ

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I always liked this passage written by Jay McAninch... "while the subject of disagreements always fades, the manner in which we treat each other when we don't agree lingers and says volumes about our character."

Offline Mitch H

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Quote
Originally posted by JCJ:
I always liked this passage written by Jay McAninch... "while the subject of disagreements always fades, the manner in which we treat each other when we don't agree lingers and says volumes about our character."
I can clearly recall many a venomous discussion back when the evil compound bow started to make serious inroads within the bow hunting community.

They were every bit as much a product of the devil as crossbows are today.    ;)
Gerhart recurve
1960 Bear Grizzly
 Wes Wallace Mentor
Dave Miller "Old Mahoning" Hybrid Longbow

People that are not willing to stand up for what is right, deserve no protection from those that will!

Offline Kevin Dill

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No weapon by itself is inherently bad. It takes the misuser to create that situation. Crossbow users have used the argument for decades that "2 bent limbs and arrow makes it a bow" (ignore the gunstock, the trigger, the scoped gunsights, the safety, etc). If that holds water, how will they feel when someone creates the hybrid gunbow that uses compressed air or perhaps gunpowder to assist the "2 bent limbs and an arrow"? Is there a point where the existence of "2 bent limbs and an arrow" in combination with whatever technological triumphs we invent, is no longer a suitable archery hunting weapon?

The entire point now is that people disagree on how the future should look. It's not just about talking or convincing. It's about winning and defeating...if possible...that which you disagree with. That is how we do things here, like it or not. No apology needed. Better get your gloves on, or get out of the way.

 ;)

Offline Al Dente

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I am tired too of hearing this quote: "A gun goes bang and a bow goes twang."  And Kevin, there already is a hybrid, if you want to call it that.  The Airrow is a barrel that you attach to you Ruger .22 caliber rifle.  It shoots arrows from the rifle barrel.  The future is here and now, so besides having to prepare to fight more advances on the crossbow, you also have to watch out for the arrow shooting firearm.  
The repeating crossbow can't be too far off, especially now that you have an auto-cocking one from Parker.  
The TenPoint models can also be cocked with either a cordless drill or cordless screwdriver.  Yeah, this is archery tackle!
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Offline JCJ

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How big an organization is PBS in terms of number of members?

Offline Ray Hammond

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Cold Weather,

Your argument is the "big tent theory" reprised- it's been around for years.

That same arguement was used in a very different sphere of life by Europeans at the beginning WW II- at that time it was called Appeasement.

"we'll give them Poland and Holland and they won't come after us in England or France" That didn't work very well, as we know from our not as yet altered history books.

If you shoot your compound bow better than you do your crossbow, then what rational argument do you use to allow yourself to hunt with a crossbow?

If you are a person of character and have compassion for the creatures you hunt as I am certain you do it would seem selecting the weapon one has the greater confidence in would be the right choice.

After all, in your world both are equivilant because as you say, they're both bows- so you have the option to select one or the other based on what I hope is your primary criteria- how effective are you with it?

You instead go counter to that and are electing to hunt with the "bow" you shoot more poorly than the compound?

I'm discounting your argument in favor of the crossbow as tainted by your profession- and am making the logical assumption that since you work in the hunting business -pushing crossbows is "GOOD" for your business and therefore, like the rest of the crossbow's proponents I have interacted with you have something monetary to gain by its introduction and expansion into archery seasons. I'm also guessing that since you were born in 1960 you missed all the hard work bow hunters had to do to even have an archery season while you were hunting with firearms and such.  

And since you are a multi-weapon hunter you don't really care whether archery season is curtailed as the result of these actions because you'll just move on to some other weapon.

JCJ- I believe there are less than 500 members in PBS....I could be off a little
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Schultzy

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Kevin,

You are the man!! Great, great posts!!

CW,

Technology will ruin bowhunting. The kids of these days think whats out there now Is the norm. That's sad and It's not the kids or the beginners fault. Tradition In bowhunting has been on It's way out since technology flooded the compound market. It's now hitting the xgun market. You haven't seen nothing yet. You give someone an Inch and they'll take a mile. Just look at the compound manufacturers.

Offline Kevin Dill

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Quote
Originally posted by Schultzy:
You give someone an Inch and they'll take a mile.
Exactly right. Our children try to do this because they are...well...children. Setting limits and enforcing them is a good thing, no matter how badly the "I want it all!" crowd responds. There is no end to the taking...ever. You control that by NOT giving. You also ignore the cries, screams and protestations of the sheep.

They don't like fences.

Offline Savage

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Re: PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2011, 02:02:00 PM »
Momma says "Crossbows are the Devil!"

You guys are hilarious!!!

Crossbows ARE archery equipment, they are just another step in the evolutionary chain of the bow. Just like the firearm has transformed from the musket to the high powered sniper rifles used by todays military.

Hell, I don't care what a person shoots, with less people hunting all the time there are more than enough animals to go around.

Drink a beer, sing kumbaya, group hug or something.

This is America for pete's sake and variety is the spice of life. We fight for the freedom to choose. If you don't like what someone hunts with, don't hunt with them or set your own rules on your land. Other than that, JUST GO HUNT!
US Army
Kosovo - 2005
Iraq - 2008

Offline Lucas K

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Re: PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2011, 01:27:00 PM »
Tim I don't think anyone is trying to stop people from hunting with a crossbow, but the advantages that the crossbow offers should preclude its use in archery only seasons.
Lucas Kent

Offline tim roberts

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Re: PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2011, 09:42:00 AM »
Really, it isn't just about the crossbow, and when we get into conversations and discussions like this one emotions run high, and it makes it hard to get out some of the needed points.  Kevin, you have done a great job in your post, thank you.

Its not to far back that one has to go, maybe further for some, but I remember times when a guy could pull into his yard with a deer, and folks that knew him would come over to hear the story, and really marvel at the fact that this guy took this animal with such a simple hunting tool, a stick and string, and even in the early days of compounds, there was still a lot of that "awe" and respect, those days were limited or no sights, and a guy had to still get close, well inside the animals comfort range, draw the bow back and make the shot, doing all of this at the risk of being detected and having nothing to show for his efforts.
it is for this reason that decision makers, and public perspective has always been in agreement that bowhunters should have and can enjoy longer seasons.  The amount of hours that we put in per animal harvest compared to gun hunting is/was vastly different.
Now lets fast forward to a time in the not so distant past, technology; treestands, range finders, trail cameras, lighted-light enhanced pins, electronics, the perception that we can shoot further, all these things in one extent or another has changed the public's view and the understanding of game managers that bowhunting is not really as hard as it once was, and that bowhunters no longer need the longer seasons.  This coupled with other attitudes, as the I want it now, with no work involved, money,  greed, etc. has the power to change what bowhunting was into something that, is well quite unacceptable to those of us that remember the "Good Old Days" .  
There was a time when bowhunters who were successful, owned every part of that opportunity called bowhunting, and the ones that weren't knew they had things to learn, hence mentoring became one of the greatest things about bowhunting.  Today, the majority of people that call themselves bowhunters, own very little of the opportunity, they have traded things like woodsmanship skills for trail cameras, and scent sealing clothes, the ability to judge distance for a piece of electronics, the list goes on.  
The point to this though is, it isn't just the crossbow, or technology, its retaining ownership of something that is a very important part of many of our lives, it's realizing that as many in our ranks surrender that ownership, we will soon loose the chance to have this in our lives as something that is a part of us.  It's about heritage, traditions, two things that I am willing to fight for.

Cold Weather,
Not meaning to poke at you, and am not trying to get in a peeing contest with you, but I find it hard to believe that you can say you have met Glenn St. Charles, and have such little respect for the things that he and many others fought so hard to preserve and protect.
Tim

TGMM Family of the Bow

I guess if we run into the bear that is making these tracks, we oughta just get off the trail.......He seems to like it!  
My good friend Rudy Bonser, while hunting elk up Indian Creek.

Offline tuscarawasbowman

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Re: PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2011, 10:21:00 AM »
I think the big point is where do we draw the line? When does new technology and new equipment take away the fair chase aspect? Yeah it's evolution but when is it too much? Newer,better,faster,stronger they may be good in everything else but to me hunting is about personal challenge. The rewards are proportional to the effort involved. And like Farr West Leather said when do we effectivly shoot ourselves in the foot with the non-hunting public? When will they go "wow look at all this stuff they use. They don't need an extra season". Just my rambling thoughts......

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