Crossbow bill in Illinois

[Mojostick]

That's cool, no problems whatsoever. We're just having a chat online. I think it's good to think of all sides of the coin.

I just hate to see Illinois traditonal bowhunters think they can go in mainly armed with the defense of "but a xbow isn't a bow", only to get steamrolled by the waiting tanks.

Unfortunately, the trend in demographics and culture makes the fight a losing cause, long term.

In my opinion, the best you can hope for is to mitigate the damage and hopefully gain something somewhere else, in return.

Maybe ask for a special "traditional bow only" season in September?

[BeNoIt]

Mojostick - Definitely interesting how the study looks at the demographics and paints a bleak recruiting picture for archery outside of current gun hunters. Hmmm. Logical step, recruit from gun hunters by introducing a bow / gun, i.e. the crossbow into the hunting picture. Thankfully in NY they had a trial x-bow season but they ran it during the gun season. I'm guessing they didn't have too much interest. I may be wrong though.

It really is a money thing as much as we may not like it. You almost need a lobby willing to pay people to vote your way.

Brad - thanks for bringing this up and sharing what is going on in your state. I'll be watching to see how things go for you all.

[Mojostick]

Actually, much of the research shows that archery deer hunting is one of the few aspects of hunting that's holding it's own.

In a way, that's the curse. Archery is keeping hunters active in the sport while firearms deer and especially small game hunting is dropping much faster.

So, states are looking at how to keep more hunters in the part of the sport that has the best retention, and that's archery hunting.

And just as states are looking to firearms only hunters to become archery hunters, since "new hunters" really aren't coming into the sport, that's why I contend that traditional archery needs to look towards existing compound shooters to grow traditional ranks, not "new archers". There's 1,000,000's of compound shooters in the USA and I'm a former compound shooter myself. I say it's a mistake to use terms like training wheels, etc when talking about compound shooters. There's 10,000's of great hunters who happen to use a compound. What we somehow need is more outreach to compound shooters who are bored with compounds and traditional hunters should never mock compound hunters themselves. I think there's a large pool of current compound shooters who'd love to try traditional bows, but they just don't know where to begin. Just my opinion.

If you want to see many of the studies that state DNR's look at when making decisions, go here. There's a TON of info here...
  http://www.responsivemanagement.com/huntingreports.php

[Ray Borbon]

Where's the evidence that crossbows increase license sales? All you have is gun hunters using crossbows and calling themselves bowhunters. They're simply looking for a different opportunity and they see a crossbow as a way to enter the archery season without learning the traditions of archery. The whole notion that crossbows should be lumped in with archery is a weak leg to stand on from my perspective. The idea completely disregards the fact that the guys who work and established the archery seasons worked hard to get what we have today. Against gun hunters who said archery was not effective. The fact is that many compound shooters also discredit traditional archery tackle as ineffective. These ideas are as bad as the gun hunters who think any bow is a bad bow because it is not an effective killing machine. Back to the crossbow - it doesn't increase license sales unless you can buy a bow and a rifle tag (depending on your state system of course) each season. Out here you can buy one but not both. So there is no sales increase at all. I read some articles in recent months that also indicated in states where users could purchase both, after enacted the crossbow addition did not amount to any extra revenue. The big benefit here is to industry making new crossbows, not to hunters. There is no additional opportunity with the crossbow. Archers should mainly be focused on increasing opportunity and that is why they often see the crossbow as an annoying or threatful proposition. It cheapens the challenge of bowhunting by removing all the mystery of the hunt. And it's the crossbow proponents trying to ride on top of the benefits of longer archery seasons and more opportunity after compound shooters and traditionalists established what we have today after generations of work.

[Ray Borbon]

"State DNR's and legislatures will only look at if a regulation change negatively impacts the resource in a noticable way. It they believe there's no downside to the resource to a change, they'll make it, especially if it increases participation."

Speak for your state. Out here that is not always true, we have swayed such decisions with critical and concise feedback just this year...

[Mojostick]

That could well be, meaning out west is different than east of the Mississippi. I'm speaking of heavily hunted and heavily populated area's. For example, we have 650,000 firearms hunters out on opening day and about 350,000 bowhunters, in just our state.
The reason for xbow passage here was there was no evidence presented that xbows would have much different impact and other states in the area showed about the same.
In states like Michigan, it's long firearms/muzzleloader seasons that pound the deer. No archery tackle, not even laser guided xbows can compete with 600,000 plus guys armed with 7mm mags and 200 yard slug guns and ML's.

Anyhow, back to not getting sucked into the debate much further. Take any suggestions as just that and consider them all.

[Al Dente]

David,  I am Al Bottari.  I am the 2nd VP and the Crossbow Committee Chairman for ew York Bowhunters, Inc.  I have been fighting this a really long time.  The truth is, the pressure is coming right from your neck of the woods.  The Erie, Niagara area is where all of this stems from.

Certain outdoor writers from that part of the State have been seduced by the crossbow manufacturers.  For 20 years they have been promising them NYS on a platter.

In 2010, a Bill was passed into law which allowed for crossbows to be used during the Regular (Firearms) season.  So, you would think that after 20 years of crying, and claiming that there is this huge support base for crossbows, that the woods would have been filled with them.  Well, according to the DEC harvest totals, during the 2011 hunting season, only 491 deer were killed with a crossbow.  Less than 1/2 of 1% of the entire harvest total.  So where is this support for it?

The modern crossbows that are being marketed are no where near in comparison to a compound.  They all have the capacity to shoot extremely accurate to 100 yards.  Just go to YouTube and type in "100 yard crossbow shot".  You will be there for weeks watching the thousands of videos.  The claim as a short distance implement is a flat out lie.  Why is every crossbow sold with a scope?  The averagr bowkill in NYS is 12 yards, with the Bowhunter Safety Program from the DEC stressing to take shots at 15 yards or less.  Yet, this can hit a bullseye at 100 yards on the first pull of the trigger.

On the Top Shot program 3 seasons ago, there was an archery episode.  All of the marksmen competing had to shoot a longbow and a crossbow.  Well, with the longbow, they pretty much couldn't hit the ocean standing on the beach.  But, when they picked up the crossbow, instant bullseyes.  The "expert" who tutored them was Bill Troubridge, the owner of Excalibur Crossbows.  And I quote, "The hardest thing about using a crossbow, is learning how to cock it."  Well, Parker Crossbows has even solved that.  Last year they introduced their Concorde model.  This crossbow utilizes a Co2 cartidge, that when activated with a push button, it automatically can cock or uncock the crossbow.  So now, even the hardest element of its' use has been addressed.

As far as new hunters being introduced, another lie.  The market is for firearms hunters to purchase and use an implement that they are familiar with during the archery seasons.  Studies have shown a ZERO increase in new hunters, but a crossover ratio of 35% and 39% in the States where the studies were conducted,  Ohio and Arkansas.

It simply is not a bow and it compromises the integrity of the archery season and experience.  Bowhunting is challenging.  Diligent practice is needed, a committment is needed to become nd stay proficient at it.  Not so with a crossbow.

In Albany last month, there was a faction present from a newly formed crossbow group.  One attending said to a NYB Board member that he needs the crossbow because he has 3 kids and HE doesn't have the time to practice and to teach them how to shoot a bow.  Right from the horses mouth, the truth came out.

[JCJ]

"As far as new hunters being introduced, another lie. The market is for firearms hunters to purchase and use an implement that they are familiar with during the archery seasons. Studies have shown a ZERO increase in new hunters, but a crossover ratio of 35% and 39% in the States where the studies were conducted, Ohio and Arkansas."


I doubt the data that is available from states like AR and OH is rich enough to determine if the inclusion of crossbows resulted in the recruitment of zero new hunters. I'd be interested in seeing data that indicates that direct correlation.

As far as marketing and trying to attract existing firearms deer hunters to bowhunting with the crossbow that is just the status quo.

Take a look at the AMO study that Damian Duda /Bissell did in Mojostick's earlier post. They found that more than 82% of bowhunters were first firearms hunters before they took up bowhunting.

It's no surprise that the converts to bowhunting because of crossbow inclusion are coming from the ranks of firearms deer hunters.

This conversion is what has fueled the growth in bowhunting since the 1980's.

[Ray Borbon]

Crossbow proponents want a weapon that is as close to a rifle as possible, and to use that weapon in the archery season because they want to spend more time in the field because they like opportunity. The problem is that the crossbow is very much like a gun (more so than most other archery tackle which is legal) and in states where bowhunting seasons are already getting shorter, it is a real bad idea to embrace the crossbow because a bunch of gun hunters are too lazy to pick up a bow and learn how to use it. There are studies which indicate that people bow hunt for the challenge. Removing the challenge will come at a cost.

[Al Dente]

The study that I cited was the Tonkovich (sp) study.  It was a joint venture between Ohio and Arkansas.  Which btw, those two states have had the crossbow for longer than almost any other.

[JCJ]

Al:

I know the study well. It was published as part of the proceedings from the first Bowhunting Summit.

Mike Tonkovich is part of the Midwest Association of FIsh and Wildlife Agencies Recruitment and Retention Committee. I chaired that committee this past year.

I have talked to him numerous times about what conclusions can or can not be made from his states data related to crossbows.

The claim that there is zero increase in new hunters as a result of crossbow inclusion cannot be determined by simply looking at harvest data or license sales data. This is what is available from both Arkansas and Ohio.

You would need to mine that data further, typically by surveying crossbow users,  to get at the value or lack of value crossbows may or may not have as a tool in hunter recruitment or retention.

Thanks for the good discussion.

Jay

[emt137]

Illinois being Illinois and Gov Quinn being himself I have to believe it all comes down to dollar signs. The state is miserably broke and he's running out of options on how to raise revenue.

We buy separate tags for archery season and gun season. There are far more gun hunters than there are bow hunters. So if they can get gun hunters to buy extra tags by allowing xbows then they are going to do it. No matter what the people really have to say about it. They don't care about tradition, conservation, the deer herd, or anything except gettIng more money ultimately for themselves.

Just my thoughts. As Chicago goes so does the state.…

[Cold Weather]

I own a xbow and have 3 stickbows.  Love shooting stickbows.

I support xbows as well.  I see xbows in all archery seasons.  no big deal.

[adeeden]

Looks like it passed, from what I gather they can't be used until after the first gun season though. Not sure if it goes into effect this year or next though. Either way I don't like it at all.

[PEARL DRUMS]

I will apologize upfront for not reading the entire thread. Michigan adopted a cross gun season that runs right along the regular archery season. As far as my circle and where I live most people that have tried them where shunned an teased enough that most went back up for sale and the wheelies bows came back out. The folks with physical impairments continue hunting with them as they have for years up here. I was mad at first because I thought I should be, not anymore. Its not such a big deal as I had expected. The local buck pools and such all had "bow" killed critters with a VERY few xgun critters in pics. Im sure its a geographical thing as well.

[turkulese]

They will take down every state... they do not care and have been bragging about victories on their forums. They have momentum, they have backers, and they are going to win. Because in the end the $$$ always wins... as do "Easy Buttons", in this day and age.

However, I am hopeful that in a few years... maybe many, that someone will come to their senses and fix the problem we have created. My suggestion... push for a single season, single weapon tag. That should put an end to the crossovers.

[LBshooter2]

Yes money is what wins out , however, we as a hunting community can turn the tide by our attitude towards crossbows. Now,they have a place for the disabled hunters and seniors who can't shoot a regualar bow. For the young able body hunter who wants to use one because they do not want to practice or master a trad bow or compound bow then in my opinion should not get the respect from others in the archery world. I know that I am going to get the typical argument about how we shouldn't fight wwithin our community but I don't buy it. Crossbows for able body hunters is not archery and they should be used during gun season, see how many use them during that time, very few, or give them a special season just like firearm season. For the last few years everytime you turned on a hunting show they had more and more crossbow hunts so you knew it was a matter of time, but it's funny how public opinion can change attitudes. jmo

[doowop]

I had this discussion with my good friend who owns a large archery shop. My idea was to let the crossbow hunters buy over the counter tags and let them hunt all the gun seasons. That would give them quite a few days to hunt if they wish. It won't be long before they will be allowed to hunt the entire bow season . With our access problem, Shawnee is going to fill up pretty quick.

[Scarne]

However, I am hopeful that in a few years... maybe many, that someone will come to their senses and fix the problem we have created. My suggestion... push for a single season, single weapon tag. That should put an end to the crossovers. [/QB]

It is already in the works here in Illinois.  Most sportsman just can't see the forest for the trees.  Sometime back somebody in the DNR said the goal was 1970's deer numbers.  We are on our way with the slaughter house rules that are currently SOP.  That's a one tag season.  Pick your poison.

When the cross overs can only buy one tag...it will be the easiest method possible. Crossguns will never go away...but they will never be given any respect.

[buckracks7]

Just got this today:

Thank you for contacting me with your concerns about crossbow hunting.

I believe that we ultimately reached a compromise that should satisfy most people.  While I understand your concerns about crossbow hunting, I also have learned that there are some able-bodied people who cannot easily operate a traditional bow, but who are interested in bow hunting.  To accommodate their needs while still protecting your right to practice traditional bow hunting, we established a short cross-bow hunting season that runs from the second Monday after Thanksgiving to the end of bow-hunting season.  If you find that crossbow hunters are interfering with your hunting experience, please let me know, as we could revisit this legislation in the future.

Please visit my website,  www.SenatorForby.com,  to learn more about my work on your behalf.  Feel free to contact me again if you have any additional questions or concerns.

Sincerely,

Senator Gary Forby
59th District – Illinois

District Office:
903 W. Washington, Suite 5
Benton, IL 62812
Email Senator Forby
Office: (618) 439-2504
Fax: (618) 438-3704
 Capitol Office:
537 Capitol Building
Springfield, IL 62706
Office: (217) 782-5509