Wolf controversy...

[Bear Heart]

The problem came when the greenies and Feds kept uping the number of wolves that were to be present before removing their protected status.

[Bladepeek]

It would really be nice if we were intelligent enough to manage the wolf numbers properly.

If we stopped hunting whitetails, they would over run their browse and die of hunger or disease. If we don't limit the kills, we wind up with what we had in the late 40's early 50's in Michigan - a rarity that hardly anyone got to see.

The raptors used to be controlled (not eradicated) in Germany. Then, the Green party got some power and they became totally protected. Pheasant and grouse numbers plummeted to nearly nothing.

It seems to me that we have sustainable numbers of wolves around the country and it should now be up to the wildlife biologists at the state level to regulate the packs to keep them at sustainable numbers while controlling the predation. We can't hunt them if they are wiped out and we won't have anything else to hunt if they aren't controlled.

MN just had the first ever recorded wolf attack on a human, so it's not like the old stories of the Steppes of Russia where they terrorized villages. At the same time, I can understand that if I were a sheep farmer I'd expect to get a control permit. One of the strong arguments for allowing elephant hunting is that the high license fees pay for much-needed game wardens to control poaching. Maybe we could do something similar - use part of the wolf license fees to compensate ranchers for lost sheep/calves.

We just had a black bear attack on a 12 year old girl in Michigan. Anybody want to wipe out all the bears?

Guess we can't please everybody and sometimes not even anybody.

[ishoot4thrills]

Originally posted by jhg:
 

Originally posted by Frank V:
...Grand parents killed wolves for a reason.
Personally, I'd like to see them all gone.

They killed them all out of ignorance. If we can't figure out a way to manage them, its our failure.........Joshua [/b]

The best way to manage them was to not reintroduce them back in the west in the first place. Then, we wouldn't have reintroduced the problems that we have now with them. I hear some elk guiding services are going out of business because there aren't any elk where there once was.

So, you're right, it's our failure.

[koger]

A bowhunter, woman, was attacked in Idaho the other day. Wolf saw her from a ways off, charged her. She put down her bow, pulled a .44 magnum, and killed it at 10feet! She is also a long time, licensed, professional guide. F&W said good to go on her part. This was on a varmint hunting forum. It is just plain common sense, man cannot live, in peace, with uncontrolled wolves, people have know that for hundreds of years throughout Europe!

[Etter]

First off, they didn't "re-introduce" anything.  The wolves that they stocked were not the native wolves.  They stocked much larger and more aggressive grey wolves.  

Secondly, the people who pushed for the "re-stocking" were largely enemies to the hunting community.  There were public meetings in every state and most ranchers and outfitters attended and voiced opposition and it was totally ignored.  

I would love if these things could co-exist today with the world, as it exists, but without massive hunting and trapping efforts, they just can't.  There are so many outfitters closing down because of them.  The economic impact is massive.  There was very little thought put into these decisions and 99% of these states residents are regretting what's been done.  

I've heard them howling in Idaho and Quebec.  I've seen their tracks and found their kills.  I'd love to witness one as I'm hunting and tip my cap to a fellow predator, but we don't live in 1800 anymore.  The world has changed, and sadly, they just don't fit here anymore.

Canada and Alaska are different stories.

[Stickbow]

Originally posted by jhg:
 

Originally posted by Frank V:
...Grand parents killed wolves for a reason.
Personally, I'd like to see them all gone.

They killed them all out of ignorance. If we can't figure out a way to manage them, its our failure.
 Hating them because they have changed what we are used to is not a very good reason to wipe them out.
I'd like to think we have "evolved" enough to find a way to keep them around that balances the the various issues.

Wolves are a great animal to hate. Do some research on how/why we have chosen to hate them so much. It is pretty interesting.


Joshua [/b]

How is this for research.

 http://www.tetonvalleynews.net/news/wolves-kill-sheep-near-fogg-hill/article_f79754fc-08eb-11e3-82d9-001a4bcf887a.html

[Bear Heart]

Why do people assume our ancestors were ignorant of wildlife?  They experienced it first hand. Not from a book! Those wolves need to go.

[Friend]

Should expect to see rises in grizzly attacks.

Grizzlies are learning to follow wolf packs and are scavenging well enough that hibernation is delayed and some are forgoing hibernation altogether.

[jwhitetail]

The wolves in my part of the world (an active pack less than 10 miles from my land/cabin)were not "stocked" or re-introduced.  Then came down from British Columbia of their own free will. Nobody told them where the border was, I guess.

As far as I can tell they like the land for the same reasons that I do... deer and elk and lots of wild space to live.  Frankly I'm fine with them back in the neighborhood.  They should be managed from a Biologically sustainable standpoint (by non-political biologists)... tag a few and let a few hunt and reproduce and live.  

Here is my way of seeing it... the forests are anything but static... they are dynamic systems where for thousands of years, populations of everything have fluctuated.  I have fewer deer on my place in 2013 because the forests are much more mature than they were in the 50'/60's and 70s.  But I wouldn't advocate clear-cutting all of the firs and pines for the elk and deer.  Just the way it is.
 
Deer, elk and wolves have co-existed for thousands and thousands of years in the American West... something tells me they will do just fine together now that they are back in touch.

Wolves are here to stay... that may mean tougher hunting.  Personally, I am ok with that.  I didn't take up trad-archery because it was easy and I don't want our woods to be big over-managed zoo where some wild critters get a free ride and others can't exist because they don't play nice.  

But that's just me. I really like my woods wild and I don't mind sharing with some big predators that kill a few deer and big trees that shade out some of their browse.    

[Sixby]

You guys advocating for wolves need to ask yourselves this question. Do you want wolves to be the hunters or do you want to be hunters. You claim to be bowhunters. You will not have any animals if this keeps up to bowhunt in the western USA. As a 40 year bowhunter in the state of Oregon I have seen our game herds go fron huge to zilch in just a few years from over predation. Not all of it wolves but a combination of new hunting laws passed by feel good people such as yourselves. They banned hunting bears with bait or dogs. They banned couger hunting with dogs by popular vote and not by sound biology . Then you add a few wolves , a poor economy upping poaching and in about 5 years you have so few animals that I fear that we will not even have a breeding population.
I hunted over a 30 x 30 mile square area in which in previous years I have seen from 50 to 300 elk and lots of deer every hunt day just recently. I saw a couple of old track, no animals at all except one small buck. I saw beautiful fields that used to have an elk track on every square foot and no tracks, no beds no droppings at all. I covered miles on foot and nothing. Its still beautiful elk habitat,. The water is there, The meadows are there . There are no other hunters at all,. There are no elk, no deer and little of anything else.
If that is what you want keep advocating for wolves.
Hunting will die in America/

God bless, Steve

[Izzy]

A healthy eco system requires not only varied species but the land and habitat to support them.  Not enough room in the lower 48 to sustain a population that can coexist with their prey base.

It seems like bison and elk were at the top of their menu in the west and until there is enough land to bring back millions of free ranging bison, the wolves will have to adapt to a foreign landscape with a prey base that has been manipulated by humans for 150 years.Their prey cannot migrate hundreds of mile in a year like they once did .

      I think that it is unfortunate but they were reintroduced at the wrong time and place, too late for it to make biological sense.

[Precurve]

I think Izzy's got it right.  Wolf advocates are trying to turn back the clock on something that can't be brought back.  How many subdivisions, shopping malls, air strips, etc existed in pre-settlement times?  Our population was a few million versus 300 million+ and racing quickly to 400.  The prey and predator species of today are unfortunately condensed into a much smaller environment as hunting lands are lost and populations grow.  Competition between man and other predator's is intense and diminished prey populations are a certainty.

[Bowwild]

They were put here for our use and we are to have dominion over them. It is arrogant of us to think we know better than Him.

There is room for the wolf but they must be managed and we can't pretend the country is uninhabited by man.

I remember in the 19080's many of my scientist peers thought the wild turkey needed 10,000 acres of contiguous forest to make a comeback. They were of course wrong.

[VictoryHunter]

Thanks guys this is all great stuff! I wish these Fish and Game officials had never brought them in. That's what the greenies want though, for the wolves to do the hunting so we can't.

[Stickbow]

No state agency is responsible, it was the USFW. The states have paid a great price.

[jwhitetail]

USFS in Montana... In Washington State they just walked in from British Columbia.

[Al Dente]

Just read a very disturbing article in Bear Hunting magazine about the wolves in Michigan.  A log of bear dogs have been attacked and killed by wolves while trailing bears.

[Frank V]

Originally posted by Al Dente:
Just read a very disturbing article in Bear Hunting magazine about the wolves in Michigan.  A log of bear dogs have been attacked and killed by wolves while trailing bears.

That's happening in Montana too.

[Traxx]

Wolf"Reintroduction"

A politically correct way of saying,Federally sponsored Eco Terrorism.

[Frank V]

Originally posted by Traxx:
Wolf"Reintroduction"

A politically correct way of saying,Federally sponsored Eco Terrorism.

If that weren't so true it'd be funny.   :mad:
Feds mess with a lot of stuff they should stay out of.