Crossbows Legal Now in NY

[Cold Weather]

lol

of course it's archery.  It's a type of a bow that shoots an arrow.

and was invented long before guns where even thought of.

one could argue compounds aren't archery.  It's common to shoot the bow with a release-and now people are using laser rangefinders to determine distances.

calling a crossbow a "crossgun" just makes someone look ....silly to argue it's not archery equipment.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Cold Weather:
lol

of course it's archery.  It's a type of a bow that shoots an arrow.

and was invented long before guns where even thought of.

one could argue compounds aren't archery.  It's common to shoot the bow with a release-and now people are using laser rangefinders to determine distances.

calling a crossbow a "crossgun" just makes someone look ....silly to argue it's not archery equipment.

i'm not gonna argue with you, but i am expecting you to please abide by our rules.  

trad gang management does not consider the "crossbow" ("crossgun" et al) within the definition of "archery", and certainly not "traditional archery".  

the reason for this is quite clear - it is a preloaded weapon that can be carried cocked 'n' locked within its own cognizance for great periods of time, like any firearm, whereas any stickbow requires the strength and abilities of a human to "cock 'n' lock" - and carry.  

those are very great and vast differences.  if you disagree, that is surely your entitlement, sir.

so, please - there will be no talk of the "crossbow" unless it is within the context of said weapon infringing in any manner on traditional bowhunting, and those discussions belong in this specific forum.  

thank you for your understanding and please continue to enjoy trad gang.

[Steve in Canton]

I want to know how the inclusion of crossbows have ever infringed on anyone's bowhunting.  I choose to shoot a recurve, it is all I have ever used as a bow, I gave up on gun or  muzzleloading years ago.  I hunt with people who use a crossbow, they have also gave up all other forms of deer hunting.  

I hunt and live in Ohio, we have one of the longest deer seasons in the country, we also have some of the best trophy deer hunting in the country and the crossbow has been legal for 40 plus years.  If the crossbow was such a detriment to our bow seasons the state probably would not have added weeks to the season as they have done in recent years.

[Mojostick]

Do crossbows threaten those of us who choose to use traditional bows? If so, how?

If anything, greater numbers of hunters involved in archery seasons preserves archery seasons and will likely expand archery seasons in the future, as hunter demographics age and fewer American's hunt due to the urbanization of the world.

From what I gather, at least for deer hunting nationally, archery participation is strong and firearms participation is waning, almost crashing. Archery hunters are becoming more gung ho and the typical guy that used to only hunt firearms opener is taking up golf, as he retires in the sun belt.

In the future, we'll likely see liberalized archery tags, and archery seasons lengthening, and a drop in the "old school" casual firearms only hunter.

One could make that case that, if anyone is hurting the growth of traditional archery, it's the online militant anti-crossbow folks that seem rather detached from what the real issues are in the real hunting world and with our demographics. The folks claiming that the majority of deer hunters are opposed to crossbows and that somehow some tin foil hat lobbyists in secret backrooms are involved of the increase in interest in crossbows is rather silly and ignorant of the reality.

I know several compound hunters that are open to trying traditional bows, until they read some of the conspiracy theories online and they really don't want to be associated with the tin foil hat crowd.

Our hurdle isn't the crossbow, it's more often obesity,  Medicare and the Social Security card, among others. That's some of the drags on traditional archery, for some.

The more likely reality is, traditional archery grows because fellow compound shooters, the vast majority of bow hunters, grow bored with high tech bows and look for something else from their "bow" experience and turn to traditional bows.

Everyone reading has to ask themselves the question-Is traditional archery more or less popular now than it was 5 years ago? How about 10 years ago? What about 15 years ago? The truth is, traditional archery is a growing sport, more popular now than since the 1960's and crossbows have done nothing to hurt that growth or growing popularity. Instead, given the numbers and the data, the only case to be made is the counter-intuitive case that crossbows have actually helped traditional archery grow as a sport. A mind-blowing concept, but there's little to suggest otherwise, other than boogeyman cries of Wolf!

[Al Dente]

I guess I am a militant anti-crossbow person.  And I am damn proud of it.  I have been in the trenches for over a decade to protect and preserve the integrity and sanctity of the archery seasons and archery only areas of NYS.  I have witnessed the lies and deceit from lobbyists, and dubious outdoor writers paid for by the crossbow manufacturers.  I have seen a shameless parade of "poster children" brought out to tug at heart strings, gathering pity for those pawns in the crossbow game.  I have been called selfish, elitist, anti-hunter, animal rights activist, and a plethora of expletives. I do not subscribe to the "big tent" theory.  I believe that archery seasons and their implements are meant to be challenging and difficult to master.  That is why archery seasons take place prior to superior implements.  I believe that the crossbow manufacturers decided long ago to intrude upon a season that was already in place, one that they could entice game agencies to carve up until they got full inclusion, rather than lobbying for their own season.  They have a product to sell, and they want the firearms hunter to purchase their product.  That is their demographic.  As stated above, I am a militant anti-crossbow person, and damn proud of it.

[Cold Weather]

Al

now you are aware of the developments in the most popular form of archery bowhunting-that of a compound bow.

[dnovo]

Al,
Those are my feelings exactly. Thank you for expressing them.
Bowhunting is supposed to be more difficult than other methods and that is exactly what the allure is. It was never meant for everyone to be able to succeed at it and we shouldn't have to enable someone to do it if they can't physically
cut it. All I see now is more people trying to make it easier and that takes away from the idea.

[Cyclic-Rivers]

I don't understand why the rifle season ever gets any attention when people want an "extra" season in place. Why is it only the archery season?


Crossbow manufacturers albeit, market the product to rifle hunters, elderly and youth.

The disabled, with a permit already had the option.

Al,  I am there with you.  I am not anti crossbow, just anti lazy.

Just because rifle hunters are waning, just means archery season should be extended.   The rifle season here is liberal yet no attacks on their season have been made,.

Already we welcomed a youth gun season in the middle of our archery season.  I am ok with this, but don't understand, with the new inclusion why our whole season has been pawned off? Yet rifle hunters still do not have to defend theirs against anything.

Thanks for hearing my vent.

[Rob DiStefano]

personally, i have no problem with most other common hunting weapons - rifles, pistols, shotguns, spears, atlatls, crossbows, knives, whatever.  i use, or have used, them all at one point or another.  

i do have a problem when authorities consider crossbows as part of archery (stickbows and compounds).  

crossbows are NOT "archery", period.  i consider them the same as any preloaded, ready-to-fire, projectile weapon that can - if need be - be aimed and released/fired with one finger.  it is what it is, pure and simple.  common sense dictates it's just not archery.

for folks who can't draw and hold an archery bow, and want to hunt with a broadheaded arrow/bolt, a crossbow might be the weapon for them, and that's not a good thing, it's a great thing.  

since a crossbow uses preloaded and stressed limbs (or cams) to contain the projectile (bolt), that is the only difference between that weapon and a firearm that uses expanding gas to push a projectile (bullet).  

imho, crossbows should not be part of the archery hunting season, and should either find their own hunting time frame or be part of the regulated firearm hunting season.

[ChuckC]

I myself have to agree.  I have nothing against crossguns, but I do have something against their inclusion carte blanch  into our archery season.

In many places deer numbers are still high, but that is not a forever thing.  Here in WI the numbers are dropping.  In UP Michigan they are not what they were years ago.  The countryside is changing, maturing, there is less habitat and less food for deer, and what we have / had are hurting the ecosystem by eating it.  This is not conjecture, but fact.

Less deer, put under stress of more and more hunting, usually means decreased opportunity for those that do the hunting.  That is already happening here in Wisconsin.

Direct impact ?  I don't gun hunt here because for years the woods were orange.  You couldn't park in the parking areas provided on public grounds (cause they were full) and the idiots that showed up were boundless.  These are folks that do nothing to prepare all year and then beginning the week prior to season, they become proficient experts, especially at shooting deer running full bore thru a thick marshland or stand of trees.

I am out walking, scouting, and enjoying the areas I hunt (public grounds) all year and I REALLY don't want to see the woods full during the archery season too.  Selfish. .  you bet.

Ease of use. .  come on, if someone cannot pull and hold a 35# compound bow with 80% let off then they really can't do a lot of the other things that hunting requires.  There were already allowances in place (WI) for those that are elder or disabled in some way.

The next is not fact, just my own view.  I believe, with all my heart, that this crossbow thing has nothing to do with large groups of people WANTING it, but it was simply a huge market for some hucksters to  make a ton of new money.  That's all.  

We as a people are gullible and stupid.  Sound excited and tell someone how you can't live without "X" and then they gotta have it.  

Don't agree ?  Look at our clothing / fashion market, as just one example.  Give me a break, way more than half of the clothing folks buy is never worn out by the original buyer, it just goes out of style, and heaven forbid we be seen wearing something out of style.

The masses didn't demand crossbow inclusion until big business talked them into needing it, on top of all the other crap they sell us.

MONEY  MONEY MONEY  that's all

ChuckC

[Mojostick]

It's obvious some get really emotional about the subject, so I'll leave this topic with some light hearted thoughts. Then I'm going to go outside and shoot some vintage Bear bows.      

Just for fun, replace "crossbow makers" with "Fred Bear" and then replace "crossbow" with "compound", then replace "2014" with "1974".

Then add in the line "Become a two season hunter" (Bear's marketing push to fool gullible gun hunters into buying a bow) with "idiots".

For more fun, replace "some hucksters" with "Darton, PSE, and Bowtech". Oh, and Fred Bear.

Did you know that the founder of Parker Crossbows was not only a close friend of Fred Bear, but he worked with and for Fred Bear from 1975-84 and hunted with Fred Bear at Grousehaven every year? Now why would Fred Bear be so easily dupped?

Other random thoughts-

If bow hunting is supposed to be certain level of "challenging", should ghillie suits be legal? How about treestands? Camo? Deer bait? Scopes on rifles? GPS units? ATV's?

Should there be a hunting test before being able to buy a license?

If Fred Bear was alive, when he eventually pushed to make crossbows legal because he was the ultimate marketer and businessman, would there even have been a fight "since Fred was for them"?

Should crossbows be regulated by ATF? Should a background check be required to buy a crossbow?

Speaking of being all about money...

BEAR ARCHERY CO. WILL MOVE
Grayling to lose firm next September

GRAYLING - The verdict came in at 7 a.m. Monday. Bear Archery Company, Crawford County's largest private employer, is moving its plant to Gainesville, Fla. The relocation decision, announced after 12 months of study, ended months of waiting and speculation and reaffirmed the worst fears of Crawford County economy watchers.

 The loss of the archery company will be a serious blow to a community which has, for 30 years, been known as the archery capitol of the world. The plant presently provides approximately 342 jobs, expends a $4.5 million annual payroll and attracts more than 150,000 visitors a year via its museum.

Here's how the Detroit News handled it in their Nov. 20, 1977 edition:

The reason for leaving Grayling, according to Kelly, remains economic. "We're looking at the bottom line," he said. "We're paying an average $7 an hour, counting fringe benefits. Our nearest competitor pays $4. It's as simple as that. There's Ben Pearson in Arkansas, Jennings Archery in California, Precision Shooting Equipment in Illinois and Arizona. Every year the gap between what they pay their employees and what we have to pay ours gets wider. Overall wage rates in Michigan put us in a very noncompetitive position in our field. We have to hire labor in a market where the auto industry sets the pattern. We can't pay auto industry rates and sell bows and arrows."

 When asked if the UAW strike was a factor in the decision to move, Kelly went on, "We would have moved had there been no strike. Except for the first three weeks, the strike had no effect on our operations. It's been no secret that we were planning to move. Townspeople have come to us and asked, 'What can we do to help you stay here?' Really, there was nothing they could do. It was a case of looking at the bottom line and finding that we could do better in a different location. It's best for the company, I'm responsible for the well-being of the company. Whatever is necessary, I will do."

AN UGLY BREAK-UP
In that issue of The Detroit News they also quoted Joan Rasmussen, the president of the Bear Archery Employee's Association at the time and one of the most visible strikers out front of the plant: "I don't talk to scabs. I'll never talk to them again."

 She had been walking the picket line for 82 weeks by that time and continued for another year until we left town.

 Rasmussen, a Bear employee for 26 years, went on, "I grew up in this town and I have a lot of friends here. I found out who they were that first day when out of 200 people, 40 crossed our picket line. My friends are all out here. Nobody in this town will hire us. They tell us we're unreliable because we're involved in a labor dispute. Sixty of our people were arrested for name-calling. Fifty-nine of the cases were dismissed as soon as they got to court. This town is getting exactly what it deserves from Bear."

[Rob DiStefano]

personally, the manufacturers economics are not my prime concern.  it's the media, manufacturers and politicos who are avidly melding crossbows with archery bows that's of much greater concern.  this misleading rationale  - that since they both use pointy sticks with broadheads - they are one in the same is disturbingly wrong.  it's like what we had to deal with before the archery-only seasons - hunting the woods with gun hunters.  a crossbow IS a "gun" (of sorts).  umm, no thanx, if i hafta walk the woods with others using preloaded weapons - guns and/or crossbows - count me out.  guru's experience with a 30-30 bullet is a prime example of what can happen.

[TonyW]

This is not an archer.
But this shooter could probably win an Olympic gold medal in archery if they bent the rules.

[joe skipp]

The point is this is not a hand held, hand drawn weapon and this doesn't belong in our Archery season. I don't want to hear Compounds are 30" long and it's just an vertical crossbow. No it isn't.

You want to hunt with a crossbow here in NY...fine.
Not during our Archery season. Give them a few weeks in December or have them share the woods with the smoke pole crowd. Again...this is NOT a hand held, hand draw weapon. I'm adamant, stubborn on this subject and I really don't give a S**** what people who support this thinks.

[Cold Weather]

that pic looks a little like my xbow.o  My Exalibur has recurve limbs.

shoot one!

no doubt its a bow

[ChuckC]

Fred Bear also espoused using "the POD", which nearly nobody else did.  Just because he was for it doesn't mean anybody else was.  Fred shot a recurve, he found no use for compounds, and, as you pointed out, that bottom line is everything.
ChuckC

[Rob DiStefano]

folks, there will be no more discussion or debate about whether crossbows are, or are not, considered "archery".

trad gang admin does NOT consider crossbows within the definition of "archery".  we will not entertain arguments to the contrary, so please do not bother sending us emails or pm's.  

we ONLY allow non-trad archery weapons threads with regards to how such weapons might affect our trad archery bowhunting seasons, mostly in terms of legislation and politics.

thank you for your understanding.

[Steve in Canton]

I still want to know how a crossbow hunter affects my choice of hunting with my recurve, we choose to hunt with our traditional bows, they choose to hunt with a crossbow.  

We can still go to the woods and hung with our bows and we are the minority in archery.  Let's keep making a big stink and have them turn the tables on us and try to get our bows banned from archery season.

[ronp]

Steve, of course it doesn't impact your choice to use a recurve.  But it looks like anybody that wants to hunt with a cross bow in NY will be required to purchase a MUZZLELOADER tag, not an archery tag.  Is that an underhanded way to get muzzleloaders into archery season, which is what we are worried about?

[Rob DiStefano]

consider this ...

during hunting season, when you are stalking game in the bush, or up a tree hunting deer or bear, at the exact same time do you mind sharing the woods with a centerfire firearm hunter, or a muzzleloader hunter, or a crossbow hunter?  all preloaded weapons with a finger on a trigger.  

it's not about the weapon of choice, it's about immediately sharing your hunting venue with a non-archery weapon hunter - and at the very least, considering crossbows as archery - no, it's NOT.  and no, no thank you.

this is clearly a money game, because logic and common sense aren't part of the grand scheme.