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Author Topic: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions  (Read 14935 times)

Offline Jakeemt

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 01:38:00 PM »
I just don't  see any real difference between a 85% let off compound with optical sights, a trigger release, and a 32 in ata length. If we allow that in the archery season then we should allow crossbows. A lot of people talk about how it's so easy to shoot a crossbow but really it's no easier than a compound. As an example I wanted my dad to bow hunt with me. He has never bow hunted before and said he didn't have the time to dedicate to trad. So we went out and got him a compound. After getting sighted in he had a 20 yard group of 4 inches. That's in about 10 minutes and had never shot a bow before, I doubt you could do much better with a crossbow and the two weapon's trajectories are nearly identical. It took me a year of practicing 5 days a week to be able to do that sometimes. Often my groups at 20 were closer to 8 inches. I don't care though. I like to hunt with trad gear because I enjoy it I just dig it and accept that I have pretty big disadvantages. If it gets my old man out hunting with me then I say ok. If it gets other people out to hunt then that's ok with me too.

Offline Bill Leeming

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 05:32:00 PM »
Well said Darren !!!

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 10:19:00 PM »
We should leave the disabled out of this because everyone knows they have been able to getb crossbow permits for many years.
It seems like quite of few of the folks who are more accepting of the croosbow are younger people. If I'm wrong on this then I'm wrong.
However I don't think many of those have any idea of or even bother to look back at the history of bowhunting and what it took to even make it legal.
Maybe then they would start to understand why we try to protect the sanctity of a true bowhunting season.  Unfortunately now it seems to be a "how quick can I kill something and get back home" type of hunt. Do we want hunters who aren't interested enough to work a little bit to learn to bowhunt, but still want in our season with a weapon that mostly resembles the rifle they normally use?
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Offline Bonebuster

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2014, 10:07:00 AM »
Crossbows were legalized a few years ago in Michigan and they have LITERALLY taken over.

The DNR requires a free stamp to be obtained, I guess so they can THINK they know how many people are hunting with one...I can tell you, most people DO NOT get the stamp.

I spent a lot of time hunting ALL OVER the state on public land, and I ran into DOZENS of other "bowhunters" and only ONE was carrying a compound...O  N  E !!!!! The rest were crossbows.

I find it interesting, that in the outdoor magazines and publications that when someone kills a deer with a BOW, it is usually in the picture...now with crossbows, they show the picture, the date which tells you it was killed in bow season, but there is NO BOW in the picture...this is because it was killed with a CROSSGUN and not a bow.

Offline bjansen

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2014, 08:39:00 PM »
Missouri is allowing the public to comment on the idea in the following link:

 http://mdc.mo.gov/about-us/public-notices/deer-management-open-houses/deer-management-comments

This link is being sent around to the x bow users to try to rally support, and I think it would be a good idea to take 5 minutes to let them know where we stand on this as well.  I submitted my statement today.

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2014, 06:56:00 PM »
Good luck Missouri.  New York now allows them for parts of archery season.  BUT, in NY you will need a muzzleloading tag to hunt with one in archery season, and not an archery tag.  I guess our leaders here think they are closer to a muzzle loading rifle than a bow...
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Offline CoachBGriff

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2014, 02:31:00 PM »
I have no problem with people hunting with X-guns.  I just have a major problem with them being legal during archery season.  

Why not just allow rifles during muzzle loader season?  Rifles, like muzzle-loaders, shoot a bullet shaped projectile - just a little further, faster, and more accurate; X-guns must be bows too because they shoot an arrow-shaped projectile - just further, faster, and more accurate.  

It has nothing to do with getting kids involved - it also,  as they are claiming, has nothing to do with herd management.  

It has EVERYTHING to do with selling more tags and more crossbows, and it makes me sick that our conservation systems are working so hard to develop the European model of hunting here in America.
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Offline CoachBGriff

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2014, 02:41:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bjansen:
Missouri is allowing the public to comment on the idea in the following link:

  http://mdc.mo.gov/about-us/public-notices/deer-management-open-houses/deer-management-comments  

This link is being sent around to the x bow users to try to rally support, and I think it would be a good idea to take 5 minutes to let them know where we stand on this as well.  I submitted my statement today.
Thanks for the link!  I've left my comments, and I even tried to sound civil about it (although I'm infuriated because it's 100% about how many permits and crossbows they can sell).
For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
2 Peter 1:16

Offline Critch

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2014, 12:09:00 AM »
I'm not happy with the crossbow decision by our Conservation Department. I'm not close minded to the idea of allowing crossbows to bring people in, but , human nature being what it is, I'm afraid that many will just use it as an easy way out.

I also don't care for being allowed to use centerfire pistols during blackpowder season; I don't blackpowder hunt myself, but this just doesn't seem right either.
I don't know if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or imbeciles who mean it. -Mark Twain

Offline Jim Jackson

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2015, 03:40:00 PM »
Just got this today 2/3/15 via email.  Public meetings regarding crossbow regulations and season limit changes are now scheduled.  Also online comments available.  More details below:

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MDC seeks public input on proposed deer hunting regulation changes

Possible changes involve firearms season lengths, use of crossbows, archery bag limits, regulations on conservation areas, and non-resident permit fees.


JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. – The Missouri Department of Conservation (MDC) is seeking public input on proposed changes to the state’s deer hunting regulations for the 2016-2017 hunting season.

For the fall firearms deer season, MDC proposes:

    Maintaining the current timing of the November portion but reducing the length from 11 days to nine days,
    Expanding the late youth firearms weekend from two days to three days and having it begin the Friday after Thanksgiving instead of early January,
    Reducing the length of the antlerless firearms portion from 12 days to three days and beginning it on the first Friday in December, and
    Eliminating the urban zones portion.  

For the fall archery deer and turkey season, MDC proposes:

    Allowing crossbows as a legal method, and
    Reducing the limit of antlered deer during the archery season from two to one.

MDC also proposes simplifying conservation area regulations and also wants public comment on permit fees for nonresidents regarding a possible increase, decrease, or no change in price.

The proposed regulation changes are a result of public input and MDC deer management research and practices. During the summer of 2014, MDC gathered more than 4,000 public comments on deer management and possible regulation changes through open houses, online comments, letters and emails. MDC also surveyed many deer hunters regarding potential regulation changes. MDC staff will present final regulations recommendations to the Conservation Commission in late 2015.

MDC WELCOMES PUBLIC COMMENT

To explain the proposed changes and gather public feedback, MDC will hold the following public meetings around the state from 5 to 8 p.m.:

    Feb. 24 – MDC Burr Oak Woods Nature Center, 1401 N.W. Park Road in Blue Springs;
    Feb. 26 – MDC Powder Valley Nature Center, 11715 Cragwold Road in Kirkwood;
    March 3 – MDC Springfield Nature Center, 4601 S. Nature Center Way in Springfield;
    March 5 -- West Plains Civic Center, 110 St. Louis St. in West Plains;
    March 10 – MDC Cape Girardeau Nature Center, 2289 County Park Drive in Cape Girardeau;
    March 12 – MDC Northeast Regional Office, 3500 S. Baltimore in Kirksville;
    March 16 – MDC Central Regional Office, 3500 E. Gans Road in Columbia; and
    March 31 – MDC Northwest Regional Office, 701 James McCarthy Drive in St. Joseph.

MDC also welcomes public comments online. To learn more about the proposed regulations, MDC’s deer management plan, past public comments, and to provide comment, visit the Department’s website at mdc.mo.gov/node/28079.

Mail comments to: Missouri Department of Conservation, Attn: Policy Coordination, P.O. Box 180, Jefferson City, MO 65102.

RATIONALE FOR REGULATION CHANGES

MDC expanded the November portion of firearms deer season to 11 days in 1995 in response to a rapidly growing deer population in many parts of the state. Deer numbers in most parts of Missouri are now at or below desired levels. According to MDC biologists, reducing the length of the November portion by two days will help increase those numbers.

The Department’s reasoning for changing the timing of the late youth portion from early January to the weekend after Thanksgiving is that it should increase youth-hunter participation and success as a result of better deer activity and weather conditions. Adding the Friday after Thanksgiving will provide an additional hunting day when schools are closed.

MDC anticipates that reducing the length of the antlerless season from 12 days to three days will help increase deer numbers to more desirable levels. The antlerless portion of the firearms deer season was implemented in 1996 to increase the harvest of female deer, or does, in response to a rapidly growing deer population in many parts of the state. The deer population in most of Missouri is currently at or below desired levels.

According to MDC, eliminating the urban zones portion of the firearms season is being considered because firearms hunting in urban zones is significantly limited by city ordinances and safety concerns. As a result, this portion does not significantly lower deer numbers in areas where urban deer conflicts occur.

The department anticipates that allowing crossbows as a legal method during the archery deer and turkey season will help younger hunters enter the sport and also prolong participation for older hunters. MDC research shows that most deer hunters are in favor of allowing crossbows during the archery season and bow hunters are about equally divided on the topic.

Reducing the buck harvest during archery season from two to one per hunter will make hunters more selective and help more bucks reach older age-classes. Regulations allowing bow hunters to harvest two bucks were implemented in 1988 when there were fewer than 100,000 individuals with a permit to hunt deer during the archery season compared to more than 180,000 in 2013.  Also, the harvest of bucks by bow hunters has nearly doubled from 11 percent of the total harvest in 2000 to 19 percent in 2013.

The Department anticipates that simplifying deer hunting regulations on conservation areas to archery only, archery and muzzleloader only, or archery and firearms will both increase hunter satisfaction and allow area managers to adjust regulations based on current deer numbers.

MDC permit fees for nonresident hunters are competitive with those of surrounding states and have remained the same since 2009.
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Offline dhaverstick

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2015, 08:28:00 AM »
Representatives from several conservation minded organizations (United Bowhunters of Missouri, Missouri Bowhunters Association, Conservation Federation of Missouri, etc.) will be meeting with  Mike Hubbard (MDC Division Chief) and Tom Draper (MDC Assistant Director) on February 11th, 2015 to  discuss the crossbow issue.

One group that will be notably absent at this meeting is the Missouri Crossbow Hunters Association. Why? Because they don't exist!

If there is such a push by Missouri citizens to include crossbows in archery season then why isn't there an organization to lobby on their behalf? Hell, even the atlatl users have the Missouri Atlatl Association and you know there aren't too many of those guys.

There are currently 42 days in Missouri where it is legal to use crossbows to hunt deer. Many of those days overlap with the state's archery season. If there is such a desire to hunt with these weapons then why don't I see the woods full of people toting them around during these 42 days? I'll answer that myself. It's because most of those days it is also legal to use a firearm. It's easier to hunt with a firearm so why use a crossbow? Likewise, the folks who want to use crossbows in archery season think why spend my time learning to use a real bow if I could use a crossbow instead?

Darren Haverstick

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2015, 09:23:00 PM »
Well said, Darren.
I don't want to get started here cause I'm trying to watch my blood pressure. There are so many things wrong with this it's ridiculous.
I will be at the meetings when they get to my area.
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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2015, 09:44:00 PM »
I just got their email and politely replied my comments bluntly and politely.

Glad you can meet with them Darren!  :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:
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Online dnovo

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2015, 04:35:00 PM »
A big thanks to Darren, Brian, Tom, Dick and any others member of United Bowhunters of MO who can make the time to do this.
Lots of people sacrifice their time to ensure out bowhunting heritage can continue.
Too bad a lot of members of a site like this can't even bother to join a group who protects their hunting heritage
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Offline dhaverstick

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2015, 08:20:00 AM »
We had our meeting yesterday with MDC Assistant Director Tom Draper, MDC Division Chief Mike Hubbard and Conservation Commissioner Jim Blair. Organizations representing the archery community included the Missouri Bowhunters Association, United Bowhunters of Missouri, Archery Big Bucks of Missouri, Conservation Federation of Missouri and the Pope and Young Club.

Overall, I think it went well. Draper and Blair took a lot of notes, explained to us how the regulation approval process worked and made clear that this was not a done deal. Blair even said that he personally does not like crossbows. I believe the attendants did a good job of shooting holes in MDC's assertion that including crossbows in archery season would recruit new hunters and retain old ones.

Mr. Hubbard said that the push for crossbow inclusion was coming from the general public. The validity of this push was questioned by the mere fact that no pro-crossbow representative of the general public was in the room.

I also brought up the point that MDC's own data shows that, sadly, the majority of hunters in the state only buy tags one or two years in a row. Do we really want this group of people influencing long term policy when they might not even be participating come September?

Lastly, it was made clear that everyone in the room felt that archery hunting was about tradition, heritage and somewhat of a rite of passage. Even MDC touts these traits about hunting in general. So, with everyone agreeing on this point, then how do crossbows in archery season fit in with this sentiment when surveys show that the majority of folks who want to use them do so because crossbows are "easier" to use and the learning curve is much less steep? Plus, when these same folks learn that crossbows are not necessarily so easy to use, they abandon them altogether and quit hunting. So much for recruitment and retention!


We will see what happens...

Darren

Offline Ron Vought

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2015, 08:37:00 AM »
You don't want crossguns in archery season. We have it here in PA I am hearing that the PGC is looking hard at the increased number of bucks taken before the rut. Could end up negatively impacting your archery season. Also expect more deer drives with crossgun use....gun hunting mentality will carry over.

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Offline Jakeemt

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2015, 07:50:00 PM »
I suppose I am the lone voice in support of crossbows. I will be at the town hall meeting on the 28th to voice my support. I have no problems with crossbows and I think they belong in archery season. I hunt with traditional bows because I like them and enjoy the challenge but, I see no reason to exclude crossbows. I really do think they will bring more people into the sport. I am an example! I started with a crossbows and thought it was so much fun that I had to go out and get a "real bow" now I am hooked! Lol anyway please don't be rude I respect your guy's opinions about why crossbows shouldn't be allowed I simply do not agree. To me they are archery and belong in that season.

Offline Jakeemt

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2015, 07:57:00 PM »
Alternatively I think one of the best compromises we could make would be to allow the use of crossbows in archery only areas since, most of those areas are designated that way for safety, but only during the rifle and muzzleloader portion of the season.

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2015, 01:27:00 PM »
There is a water fountain in that big mall up north, it is big enough to paddle a canoe around.  Just think a wilderness experience with an orange Julius stand just a few yards away. Hunting is becoming more like that every year.   What dnr departments and state legislators are doing is a joke. Nothing is done for the sake of the experience, adventure, a wilderness ethic or the challenge, it is all about money and nothing but money. In Iowa the public hunting areas are just like shopping malls, there are cameras everywhere, people running around with all kinds of contraptions, the fight to get in just the right spot. Anything it takes to get the big deer and be the big man is justified. Gun and crossbow companies are owned by bigger companies and they have money to spend. They spend it on politicians.  The argument that it will bring more hunters to the sport doesn't fly. What archery needs is hunters that are willing to work to take on a challenge, hunters with ethics and backbone, that is what started the archery seasons in the first place. It was something that non-hunting politicians could admire.  There is nothing to admire about gadget laden woods with hunters that have weapons that take very little practice that anyone can sort of master in a few minutes. If we cannot sell the idea of taking up hunting as a challenge and an adventure with an ethic for the love of wild places, it is obvious that we really have nothing to sell. It is disturbing to me, how shallow people have become.

Offline Jakeemt

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Re: Missouri Dept of Conservation-Bad Decisions
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2015, 01:46:00 PM »
This may be true in Iowa but MO has one of the best (if not the best) Conservation Departments in the country! They are completely independent of the politicians in the Capitol. What's more they have there own source of funding that is substantial and cannot be touched by any other organization per our state constitution. There is a 1/10th of 1 percent tax of every outdoor related product in the state. That's not just guns and bows but, fishing gear, binoculars, back packs, trail bikes, canoes, kayaks, and more. I have 4 1000 acre + conservation areas within a 20 minutes of me and yes while you will have to occasionally pack out some slobs trash you will find no cameras, no orange Julius', and if you go deep off the trail to get to the good spots you will have yo pack out your buck on your lonesome as they do not allow vehicles of any kind. This is the situation throughout most of the state. If they have decided to try adding crossbows it is truly due to public input and not some greed corporate pressure. X-bows would represent just a drop in the bucket.

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