Crossguns in PA

[Ron Vought]

I really don't care about the crossgun as a weapon itself but I do care about the negative impact it could possibly have on our archery seasons. I think most just assume the bow season will stay in tact however for example if the biologists feel that too many bucks are being taken prior to the rut then there could be an impact to our season. The crossguns in PA are driving harvest limits upwards. The crossgun is the main contributor. As more people rush out and buy crossguns my fear is our season is in jeopardy of being shortened and there is definitely no opportunity at an extension. Everyone has to think about the deer management initiatives and the impact a weapon can have on our seasons.

Ron

[Krex1010]

I hear you there Ron. I don't want the season shortened. I'm in south east pa as well, crossbows have been legal here for about 10 years ( that's a guess on my part) but the archery season has been opening earlier the last few years, basically we can hunt from late September through the end of January with only a couple days off. Is there serious talk of shortening the season? Or is it just a fear? As an aside Ron, please don't take offense to my playing devils advocate to you, Im enjoying this discussion with you.

[ChuckC]

All it takes is a couple bad winters or a bout of blue tongue and everything changes.  

Wisconsin had more tags than I would ever want to fill, including unlimited doe tags for my area, till this year.  

During 2014 nearly half the state had no doe tags.  Now add a whole bunch more hunters that have a way better chance of killing something to the mix and what is the likely outcome ?

Archery season was made to encompass a long period of time because the odds of success were a lot smaller than during gun season.  If we keep making it easier and the odds keep go up, it will affect the seasons, one way or another.  

Not fear, not guess, but future factoid.

We have been blessed, or cursed with large burgeoning deer herds during the last twenty or so years.  It wasn't always like that and it won't always be like that.

ChuckC

[Krex1010]

Chuck I don't know of anything that's future factoid besides death, taxes and that I'll do something in the next few days that will annoy my wife lol. I get it, this is a traditional archery forum and crossbows go against everything that most people here believe in. I just don't buy them as a boogieman that is ruining archery hunting. In Pennsylvania license sales haven't gone up significantly since they were legalized, and I don't think archery tag sales have increased significantly either, it's basically the same hunters only some have crossbows, maybe a few guys that used to just hunt rifle now buy archery tags. I hang with a lot of hunters, all different types. I'm not old but Im not a young pup either. Here's what I've seen, some guys fill tags every year, some don't. The weapon doesn't make the hunter, I know guys that killed several deer every year with a compound and switched to crossbows, they kill the same deer. I know guys who didn't fill tags with compounds and still don't since they switched to crossbows. I know rifle hunters that get deer every year and rifle hunters that go years between kills. Give a lazy compound hunter a crossbow and he won't all of a sudden be stacking deer up, because he won't do the work it takes to scout and get on deer. Crossbows may be rearranging the deer harvest a little as some guys that didn't used to archery hunt now do, but if they are a good hunter that just means that they kill a buck in October instead of a month later when rifle season opens.

[Rob DiStefano]

keith, perhaps you miss the point of some, including me.  

i have nothing against the crossbow per se ... except when it morphs into a crossgun, is put into the categories of "archery" and "bowhunting", and is allowed to be used during archery hunting season, at archery hunting venues.

crossguns take the sport of killing game into the realm of the firearm.  

cocked 'n' locked is the defining prime concern.  these are weapons that any fool who has a trigger finger can use.  a mere child can load and hunt with a 150# crossgun, just as easily as he/she can with a winchester .30-30 as both are preloaded and both easily fired.  

there are clearly two camps of bowhunters, with trad bows the most primitive, followed by the wheel and cam crowd.  crossguns both trump those easily and have a clear advantage.

so ... the only beef i have with crossbows is when they become crossguns and enter the bowhunting season and venues.

[Krex1010]

I understand what you're saying Rob. This is just a situation where something bothers you that doesn't bother me. I don't see the negative in some guys taking the crossbow shortcut. I'm sure there are things hunting related that bother me that you don't think twice about. We don't agree on this topic and that's fine, if we all agreed on everything there would be little to talk about.

[Rob DiStefano]

i dunno how more clear i can make my position ...

i don't care if someone uses a crossgun for hunting - THAT is NOT a problem.

THE PROBLEM is when the politicians decide to allow that crossgun during ARCHERY season, at ARCHERY venues.  this is the EXACT same as allowing firearms to hunt the same time and place as REAL archery bowhunting.

[Krex1010]

Rob, I clearly understand your position. I just don't share your stance on it. I'm willing to share the woods with crossbow hunters, grouse hunters, squirrel hunters, I don't put my pursuits ahead of anyone else's. I can accept that you don't feel the same as me, if you cannot accept that I don't feel the same as you...well that's your issue. I'm not trying to change your mind, just explaining why I feel the way I do.

[Rob DiStefano]

why is there an archery season and a firearm season?

[Krex1010]

in PA the firearm season was the original deer season, archery seasons were added later. And I'm sorry but hunting with a crossbow is similar to firearms in aiming, and firing only. Crossbows have about the same effective range as a compound, are limited by arrow drop like a compound. They don't shoot through brush, outside of 30 yards you have to really account for yardage, like a compound. The only real "in the woods" advantage a crossbow has over a compound is less movement to fire, which is really only a major advantage to ground hunters who aren't in a blind. Are crossbows easier to be accurate with? Yes yes yes yes and yes, but to me how hard a weapon is to master shouldn't be the deciding factor as to whether it should be legal in a particular season. I just simply do not agree that hunting with a crossbow is the same as with a firearm. Just because a crossbow can do fancy things at long range on the shooting bench doesn't necessarily translate to huge advantages in the deer woods. I don't hunt with my trad bow yet, I'm not ready. I still hunt with my compound.  I've shot crossbows, guys I hunt with use them. I'm familiar with what they can and can't do. When I'm in a treestand or blind with my bow, I honestly do not believe a crossbow would give me much of an advantage on killing a deer.

[Rob DiStefano]

just to be clear, and with full disclosure in mind, back in the late 50's to mid 60's my dad and i built and shot crossbows using car springs for the prods, along with our longbows (that dad built, not me).  i have nothing against crossbows whatsoever.  THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ARCHERY.

but they ARE "guns" because unlike an archery bow, they are preloaded.  whether the firing mechanism on a crossbow is a trigger or clasp, it is a "gun".  it stays loaded during the entire hunt until it is fired or unloaded.  THIS IS WHY CROSSBOWS ARE NOT EVEN REMOTELY IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS A HAND HELD ARCHERY BOW.  they NEVER compete with archery bows in tournaments, and they belong with the firearm hunters and not the bowhunters.

[Krex1010]

Rob I don't disagree with your statement that shooting a crossbow isn't archery. And I respect your opinion that you don't think they belong in the archery seasons. But to me crossbows being legal for archery seasons are just a case of different weapons of similar effectiveness being legal in a particular season. In PA archery equipment was always legal for use in the flintlock season provided you had a flintlock stamp. I guess you're just a little more strict on what you want allowed in the archery season, and I can respect that.

[Rob DiStefano]

i will repeat yet again, and then i'm done with this ...

• archery bows (longbows to cam bows) are not pre-loaded weapons, whilst crossbows are pre-loaded weapons.
• though they both have "limb engines", they are as different as night and day either at the target range or on the hunt.
• they are mutually exclusive and crossguns belong in the firearm hunt season, not the archery hunt season.

[Krex1010]

I guess I'm speaking Greek? I'm not arguing any of the points you just repeated again. You're free to repeat yourself, this is still America. You obviously are either missing my point, or you are not capable of accepting that someone else could possibly  have a different take on a topic. Good day.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Krex1010:
I guess I'm speaking Greek? I'm not arguing any of the points you just repeated again. You're free to repeat yourself, this is still America. You obviously are either missing my point, or you are not capable of accepting that someone else could possibly  have a different take on a topic. Good day.

if you advocate the use of crossguns during ARCHERY hunt seasons, at the same hunt venues, then i consider yer position as wrong and anti-archery.  that's about it.

[Krex1010]

thank you for your judgement Rob. I'll keep my thoughts about you to myself because somehow I get the feeling you're not the type of bloke who troubles himself with the thoughts of those who are obviously beneath you.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Krex1010:
thank you for your judgement Rob. I'll keep my thoughts about you to myself because somehow I get the feeling you're not the type of bloke who troubles himself with the thoughts of those who are obviously beneath you.

don't take my comments personally, they're not about you per se, they have only to do with crossbows, crossguns, archery and hunting.  

that you see it perfectly ok to allow crossguns to hunt side-by-side with archers/bowhunters, is yer own business.

BUT, i do NOT want anyone reading through trad gang posts to think WE (trad gang) endorse crossgun hunting during archery season.  we don't.  

CROSSBOWS/CROSSGUNS belong in the firearm hunting season.  just as firearms and crossbows do not compete with real archery tackle.

further, this is the only trad gang sub-forum where legal hunting weapons can be alluded to, but not specifically posted about IF they are not stick bows.  i like lots of different weapons for both hunting and target, crossbows definitely included.  

at this juncture, i think we're pretty much over about 'em with regards to hunting, we're not gonna have a change of mindset, so let's leave it all be, drop it, and move on.

[FOX SQUIRREL NUTS]

Not a complete advocate but i started with a crossbow and now build my own recurves.  cant say its had a terribly detrimental effect on me.  Especially since i still get to hunt with my dad.

[Ron Vought]

I just don't understand why anyone would use a crossgun or even supports its use in the archery season. Where do we draw the line on archery equipment? Is it when the crossgun fires a bolt using a 209 primer at over 1,000 fps? I have yet to see anyone that supports the use of the crossgun answer this question. Yes the crossgun harvest in PA is under the microscope now....stay tuned.

Ron

[FOX SQUIRREL NUTS]

Originally posted by Ron Vought:
I just don't understand why anyone would use a crossgun or even supports its use in the archery season. Where do we draw the line on archery equipment? Is it when the crossgun fires a bolt using a 209 primer at over 1,000 fps? I have yet to see anyone that supports the use of the crossgun answer this question. Yes the crossgun harvest in PA is under the microscope now....stay tuned.

Ron

I think the transition to game management by local DNR's has been the biggest factor.  Hunting used to a be a tradition, now its a functional element at a means to an end result.  The DNR's want me deer dead period. That seemed to start here is the early 90's and hasn't ended.  They don't care what you think just kill their deer.  Sad state of reality.  I now fear State biologist with a hidden agenda more than any weapon.  They have done more to reduce archery status than anyone thing is recent memory.