Do ATV's or 4 wheelers hurt your bowhunting area?

[Lenny Stankowitz]

Sorry Blaine, I agree with what you said but I totally disagree with the reasons why.

"Today, the main stream media generally portray hunters as fat lazy ignorant slobs that take joy in killing things and will do anything to accomplish this goal. They are portrayed as backwards and unenlightened at best, or as a villain at the worst."

Hunters are portrayed that way not because that is the way the majority act, it is because the meain stream media now has an AGENDA that is anti hunting.  If you think for one minute that this will change because we outlaw 4 wheelers or certain equipment, you are sadly mistaken.  They will simply move on to the next thing until hunting is completely outlawed.  

The fact of the matter is, there have always been "slob" hunters and there always will be.  This is becuase there have always been "slob" people and as long as some of those people hunt it is going to carry over.  The only difference is that now we have ALLOWED the media to define us.  Worse yet is that we have some among us that are more than willing to agree with them, thinking this will appease them.

Make NO mistake about it. To an anti hunter or to the media that is willingly furthering their agenda, there is no "ethical" hunting.  They will continue to chip away at whatever they feel they can get some agreement on and then move on to the next thing until it is all gone.  Sooner or later we will all look back, scratch our heads and say "WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED??  I THOUGHT THEY AGREED WITH ME?  

Does anyone honestly thing for one minute that HSUS cares HOW an animal is killed by a hunter, or how he got to his hunting spot?  Do you think for one minute that they admire us because we walked, or because our arrows are made of wood?  No offense, but if you honestly believe that, enjoy it while you can because you have just handed them the victory they so desperately want.

Lenny

[Reg Darling]

I'd like to add something else to the discussion. I'm 58. I've had one neck surgery and may need another if I live long enough. I have two bad discs in my lower back. I'm recovering from a torn bicep and I don't even know how the heck I did it. My legs and heart are still strong, so I'm still able to roam freely, but the number of years left of that ability are scarily finite. Unless something else gets me first, the day will come when I won't be able to head down into the valley and up to the ridgetop on the other side on a whim. When that time arrives the solution won't be an ATV. I'll adapt my hiking, my hunting, and my desires. Age and infirmity are not injustices to be redressed with technology--they are opportunities for spiritual and psychological growth.

[Orion]

Reg, I'm a little older than you so I'll probably reach that point before you do, but I'm in the same boat, physically and intellectually.  Well said.

[Talondale]

I agree with Lenny.  I was just about to write the same thing when I read his post.  The media doesn't hate us because we're slob hunters, they hate us because we are HUNTERS.  It's not because our ranks have changed, even if they have, it's because their ranks have changed.  We could be a homogonous group of angelic sportsmen with the ethics of Pope, Young, Audobon, Muir all rolled into one and they'd still find fault with us.  Recreational hunters are the reason these people have anywhere to go to mountain bike, hike, or any other outdoor activity outside of a city park.  We are the reason they see most of the wildlife they do see when they are out there.  Teddy Roosevelt was a hunter, he started the National Park service, Audobon was a hunter, Muir was a hunter. Our license fees bought and improved the habitat long before it was trendy to be "green".  We reintroduced species that had wiped out and encouraged populations of species that persisted.  Yet they still hate us.  I won't go into the why of it, that's better suited for the Politics forum (as I feel this whole thread is).

One thing to keep in mind is that not all ATV and offroaders are hunters.  We share some of that blame with the recreational BMX, motorcross, atv crowd as well.  So don't be pinning the hunting crowd with more than our share of guilt.

[Orion]

Talondale:  "We could be a homogonous group of angelic sportsmen with the ethics of Pope, Young, Audobon, Muir all rolled into one and they'd still find fault with us."  

We don't know that because we never have been.  The point is that a lot of current hunting behaviors are offensive to others, and if we don't demonstrate those behaviors, the media can't report them.

Good point re not all ATV users being hunters.  All the more reason to distinguish ourselves from that crowd in a positive way.

[Lenny Stankowitz]

Orion:

"We don't know that because we never have been. The point is that a lot of current hunting behaviors are offensive to others, and if we don't demonstrate those behaviors, the media can't report them."

There are many good, ethical hunters out there that demonstrate the qualities that you and I both agree with yet the media CHOOSES to report the bad things.  This is because of their predominantly anti hunting agenda.  If the media were clammoring for good things to report about hunting, the are literally thousands upon thousands of them every year to choose from.  In spite of all this, they will always resort to the cat or the duck with an arrow stuck in it story.

As long as we are willing to throw each other under the bus, they will win.  It's only a matter of time before they find a picture of a cedar arrow stuck in a cat.  If they can't find one they will either fabricate one or worse yet, make their own.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

 

Lenny

[last arrow]

Lenny, let me make several comments for further consideration.  First, I do not believe the non-hunting public or the media has an agenda on hunting issues.  They are followers in this regard. If not given a story on hunting I doubt they would report on it at all. Currently, the anti’s are much more effective in influencing their views and providing those stories than hunters are.  Next, hunters have not allowed the media to define us. We have allowed the slobs and profiteers to define us by saying nothing about what they are doing.

Reg, your attitude on aging is inspiring.

[Larry247]

I'm sorry about that Ken, i guess i was being a little smart. This is a touchy subject.

Guy's don't think for a minute that because i use my atv to hunt or whatever that i haven't had somebody mess me up while in the woods some where. I've had to grit my teeth more than once and mumble something under my breath.

A lot of people ride here in our state, poeple drive here from all over the country just to ride. For the most part they are good law abiding people, and then there are some that run wild.

Even though i've had some bad experiances while hunting with some one else riding an atv near me, i won't complain about it and add fuel to the anti-fire's.

[Lenny Stankowitz]

Blaine:

"First, I do not believe the non-hunting public or the media has an agenda on hunting issues."  

You may well be correct about the non-hunting public but in my opinion you are being extremely naive if you think the main stream media has no agenda when it comes to hunting.

Furthermore, they DO define us by default.  We can define ourselves all we want but if we have no outlet in which to tell our story, it is as if we don't have one.  Our media outlets (for the most part) are no longer interested in reporting news, they now need to MAKE news.  This is completely different than it was just 15 years ago.  Political correctness has taken over and to a great extent, the "news" is going to reflect the opinions of owners of the outlet.  Just enough opposition is allowed so they can say that they are not biased.  

It's kind of like the old "if a tree falls in the woods where there is nobody there to hear it, does it really make any noise?"

Lenny

[LC]

Concerning the media and what they report and how they report it reminds me of a joke. A guy seriously and constantly depressed goes to see a pschologist. The first question the doctor asks is if he watches the nightly news. The guy says yes for a solid hour every night. Then the doctor tells him to stop immediately and come back and see me in a week.

Seriously you'll have to watch the news for atleast a hour before you'll hear one good news story.Sad, disgusting, horrible stuff is news worthy not some girl scout club saved pennies and sent some sick child for a much needed operation.
 
"Make NO mistake about it. To an anti hunter or to the media that is willingly furthering their agenda, there is no "ethical" hunting."

Couldn't agree with you more Lenny it's the non hunting public the largest number in the equation that concerns me.

"We can define ourselves all we want but if we have no outlet in which to tell our story, it is as if we don't have one"

Oh we have great outlets. Now that you quit watching the news, watch the Outdoor Channel with a non hunting friend and then ask them what he thinks of hunters? It's hard, no  dang impossible, to over come the images 90% of those shows leaves in my head much less someone who hasnt' seen or experienced the proper way to hunt.

 "Political correctness has taken over and to a great extent, the "news" is going to reflect the opinions of owners of the outlet. Just enough opposition is allowed so they can say that they are not biased."

Couldn't agree with you more but it's been that way for a long time now.

  I honestly think if the true sportsmen and women  don't unite and clean up our standards we are doomed. I cringe everytime I hear the statement if it's legal than I'm all for it. I know my behind is getting a little wet standing under the big tent and its already coming in over my boots.

[bayoulongbowman]

This makes one think, this was good one!

[last arrow]

I agree with LC that we have excellent media outlets for hunting.  Not only does the outdoor life channel show hunting content, Foxsports and ESPN 1 & 2 occassionally do to.  The problem is that this content is primarily marketing for the sponsers.  It generally does not provide a true view of what hunting is about, why we hunt or the benifits of hunting (economicaly, to wildlife or spiritually).  This is what hunters need to influence.

Note that ESPN is owned by ABC (Disney), viewed by most as a large media outlet with an "agenda".  ESPN's occasional hunting programming makes me think that ABC's agenda is not to eliminate hunting but to make money by provideing "entertainment programing".  They will air what people watch and what advertisers will pay for to meet this goal.  Like any other coorporation, they will adjust thier "agenda" to achieve thier profit goals.  We hunters need to use that "agenda" to our advantage.  The antis are.

Companies like Ford GM and Toyota (as an example) love hunters becuase they buy high profit 4x4 trucks.  Thier advertising dollers does influence the media outlets and can when it comes to hunting.  Hopefully someone smarter than me will figure out how we can use this advantage.

[gregg dudley]

It seems ironic to me that hunters, who are often the victim of erroneous stereotype, do not hesitate to assign an equally erroneous global condemnation to another group such as atv users.  

Lenny made a strong point that was glossed over when he compared the rationale of blaming atvs to the rationale of blaming guns.  Both are hunks of steel that require a human to operate.  By themselves, they are incapable of the attrocities attributed to them.  Blaming cars for traffic is as one dimensional and makes about as much sense.

Laws exist for the responsible use of atvs.  What we need is consistent enforcement of what is already in place.

[Recurve50LBS]

Originally posted by gregg dudley
Laws exist for the responsible use of atvs.  What we need is consistent enforcement of what is already in place. [/QB]

This is exactly the point I wanted to make. I wish that I had the tallent to write in my 2 pervious posts on this subject. Thank you  Gregg

[LBR]

It was said several times over the course of this thread--here is one quote that puts it in a nutshell for me.

 

Irresponsible hunters in general, whether on foot, auto, or ATV is what spoils hunting.  

The way I see it, blaming ATV's for hunting problems goes along the same lines as blaming guns for killing people, forks for making people fat, high-tech bows for making hail-mary shots at game, etc. etc. etc.  They are simply a tool--how they are used or misused depends on the operator.

Yes, I do own one--I live on a farm, and it sure comes in handy.  As far as using it for hunting, that's a rare occasion other than getting an animal out of the woods (on private land).  Season opens on October 1st here in MS, and it's not at all unusual for the temps to be in the 80's--meat spoils dang fast.  We usually don't even get cool weather until late November, and I'm in the Northern part of the state.  

I guess I could just stay home the first six to 8 weeks of the season, or just cut out the backstraps and get them in a cooler and hope the rest doesn't spoil before I can get it out.....yeah, right!  Ain't gonna' happen, as long as I have acess to an ATV.  I do plan to train my mule (4-foot, hay burning type) to possibly take the place of the ATV, but until then...

I've had/seen hunts spoiled by folks in trucks, on horseback, and on foot--so do we ban trucks, horses, and boots?  If you ever had someone walk in on your spot, did you get mad at the shoes they were wearing?  If you catch a poacher, do you get mad at their weapon?  If not, and you get mad at ATV's, why didn't you get mad at the shoes or weapon?  They are just as much to blame as the ATV.

I understand the frustration, but I don't understand getting mad at the tool vs. the individual operating it.  Personally, I don't much care about the insinuations that practically everyone that owns an ATV uses it irresponsibly.  Sure, there's plenty of idiots that own ATV's, just like there's plenty of slob "hunters".  I won't judge the whole by the actions of a few, and I don't want to be judged that way either.

Chad

[Kip]

LBR  I was trying to say the same thing in my post but yours was better.Kip

[Lenny Stankowitz]

Let me clarify something I said earlier.  When I said we had no outlets for our stories, I meant that the MAIN STREAM media defines us to the GENERAL PUBLIC.  Yes, we have outdoor shows and hunting channels but the only people that watch them (for the most part) are people already interested in hunting.  Showing hunters in a good light to other hunters does us no good.  We all agree that it is the non-hunters that we need to appeal to and the fact remains that the only media outlets that non-hunters watch (in any great numbers) are the ones that have an anit-hunting bias.

Preaching to the choir...you know the story.

LBR is exactly right.  Some of you are accusing an inanimate object of ruining your hunt.  I have personally been bothered much more by hunters on foot than on ATV's.

When will we realize that we do NO hunters any good when we throw other hunters under the bus.  Hopefully we will wake up before the bus kills us all.

Lenny

Lenny

[Rooselk]

Laws exist for the responsible use of atvs.  What we need is consistent enforcement of what is already in place. [/QB]

Many state game departments already have a shortage of enforcement personell. Sorry, but I prefer that those we do have be able to spend their time enforcing the game laws, not being traffic cops.

[Adirondack Bowman]

Why ride when you can walk ?  Makes no sense to me.

[IDABOW]

In answer to the original question of "do ATV's or 4 wheelers ruin my hunting area", the answer is HELL YES! If other hunters are being irresponsible, then I have no problem throwing them under and or running them over with the "bus". Certainly, one of our biggest problems is ourselves and how we choose to or not to act in the areas we hunt.  I'm not going to turn my head to bad choices by other hunters, that just perpetuates what some of the Anti-hunters use against us.
Bill