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Author Topic: Knife blade hardining.  (Read 7158 times)

Offline Wyostikbo

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Knife blade hardining.
« on: January 06, 2008, 08:27:00 PM »
I have a concrete saw blade I want to make a knife out of. I tried one and it came out fine, I just don't think the steel is hard enough. I can drill through it without heating it up red hot and letting it slowly cool down.
Can somebody tell me the procedure for hardening steel.
Thanks.
Brent

Offline Gene Roberts

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2008, 08:54:00 PM »
Can't you get it red hot then put it in water.
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Offline Holm-Made

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2008, 09:24:00 PM »
Can't help you unless I know what kind of steel it is.  Old saws work best because most of them are L6 tool steel.  Alot of the newer saws and files are case hardened and don't make good knives.  

Most high carbon steel is heat treated by heating it to 1650 degrees (cherry red) and quenched into oil heated to 120-140 degrees.  That is the hardening process.  Then the tempering process can be done in a kitchen oven.  About 1 hour at 300 degrees.  Chad

Offline LC

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2008, 09:31:00 PM »
I'd have to guess that the steel in a concrete saw is not good knife steel. Same for all blades that use diamond or carbide for the cutting action.
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Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2008, 09:32:00 PM »
I have some concrete saw blades, but I've noticed they dont rust much. I have concluded they may be or very close to being some kind of Stainless. It's very hard to temper for someone new to working steel. I would search around and find an old sawmill blade (L-6) and I can help you with that. It's a high carbon steel and will be more likely to make you a good knife. Lin
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Offline sticshooter

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 09:43:00 PM »
How big of blade you looking to make?<><
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Offline Wyostikbo

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2008, 10:05:00 PM »
I think you guys are right in thinking the steel isn't good enough for a knife blade. I was just hoping I could harden it somehow.
I'm not looking to build anything big, maybe 7"-8" OAL.
I don't have access to any old saw blades but would be willing to buy one if there are any available.
Thanks.
Brent

Offline loyd

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2008, 04:40:00 AM »
if i had your address i could send you some. loyd

Offline hickstick

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2008, 12:25:00 PM »
gotta be careful with that one gene.  oil hardening steels can rip apart violently if quenched in water...

aren't most concrete saws diamond blades?  if so they are relying on the hardness of the diamond powder to cut the conrete, not the steel...they are probably using a lower carbon steel for the blade part so it can stand the temperatures generated in the cutting???   just a guess.

you could do 2 tests...one like Lin said to see if its stainless...get gun blue and see if it blues...if it wipes right off its stainless and would require highly technical hardening/tempering  process....if it stains with the bluing do a 'quench test'....cut a small piece off, heat it to  red, then quench in oil (used motor oil, transmission fluid, veggie oil)  I use canola oil,  then clamp one end in a vise and whack it with hammer (donning proper safety attire, goggles gloves, apron, etc)..if it bends over it ain't hard. repeat the heat and this time quench in water....again if it bends it aint hard...no good.

if it snaps or shatters then its pretty hard...probably hard enough to make a knife.
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Offline jindydiver

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2008, 07:12:00 PM »
I often use concrete cutting saws for the steel in my blades. I only use the saws that are around 2 foot across or bigger and I test the steel before I make anything worth keeping.
It is true that when the saw is doing it's original job it is the diamonds that are doing the cutting, but the saw must be strong enough to be able to take abuse AND stay in one piece while doing some serious RPM, this requires steel of pretty good quality. It might or might not be L6 used these days (it was used in times past for saw blades WITH integral cutting teeth) but either way it is hardening and tempering fine and the tempering recipe (and the knives performance) is close enough to L6 for it to make no difference.

Some blades made with concrete saws
 

And one didn't like the quench
 

The test to see how good it will perform
 
 

I had this blade over at near 80 degrees before it snapped and the handle sprung back a heap.

I don't ever use those dinky little 12 or 18 inch saws. I had no luck with them earlier and don't believe that the steel is good enough to waste time on.
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Offline Wyostikbo

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2008, 09:29:00 PM »
My blade isn't 2 ft. But I think I will try the tests on a small piece and see what comes of it.
Sounds like I may need to find an old saw blade that's made out of real steel.
Thanks.
Brent

Offline ALW

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2008, 09:38:00 AM »
Not wanting to hijack the thread but I had a question.  I have been making a few knives out of 10" table saw blades.  They sharpen to a really good edge but I haven't had a chance to give them some use yet to see how well the edge will hold up.  I read on another site about doing a brass rod test on the blade to check the hardness.  Exactly what it this test?  I'm guessing you try cutting or peeling the brass with the edge to see if it will chip or hold it's sharpness.  Just wondering.  Thanks.

Aaron

Offline robtattoo

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2008, 10:00:00 AM »
The Brass Rod Test (as it appeared in BLADE Magazine) by Wayne Goddard

The brass rod test was demonstrated to me in 1959 by an old blacksmith who made knives in the 1930s. Here is my version of the brass rod test which is simple test of heat treating to help determine that a blade will hold up in normal use.

Clamp a 1/4-inch-diameter brass rod horizontally in a vise with the top half above the jaws. Or glue it to a piece of hardwood. Lay the knife edge on the brass rod at the same angle used for sharpening (about 15 degrees). Have a good light source behind the vise so that you can see the deflection caused by the rod on the edge. Apply enough pressure so that you can see the edge deflect. (When tested on a scale, the pressure works out to 35-40 lbs.) If the edge chips out with moderate pressure on the rod, the edge will most likely chip out in use. If the edge stays bent over in the deflected area, it will bend in use and be too soft to hold an edge. The edge of a superior blade will deflect on the rod and spring back straight.

The test is intended for knives in the hunting knife class. Thin filet knives or thick camp knives will not respond to the test in the same way. The blade that is too hard will chip out in normal use, too soft and the edge will bend. The brass rod test can quickly determine if the blade has a good balance of flexible strength and hardness sufficient to hold an edge.

The brass rod test as I present it is not intended to replace a hardness test to determine that a blade was fully hardened. It only applies to blades that have been tempered. I have worked out my version using it on blades made of alloy and carbon steel types that backyard heat treating methods are adequate for. The brass rod test is only a comparison test to determine what is in my opinion a hardness that will hold up in normal use. I started using is about thirty years ago and still think it is the best non field-use test I've found for testing the suitability of a blade steel and heat treatment for a working knife.
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Offline ALW

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2008, 11:24:00 AM »
Robtattoo, thanks for the quick response.  So much good information here.

Aaron

Offline hickstick

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2008, 12:42:00 PM »
re: brass rod test

if you don't have a brass rod handy a croc stick (ceramic rod) will work in a pinch.  I like to do it a little differently too...instead of clamping it in a vise, I like to lay the rod on a sturdy table, place the blade edge against it at the appropriate angle and roll the edge (and rod) from choil to point...with enough pressure to actually see the edge deflect, and if it stays bent or warps at all its too soft, if it chips from the pressure...its too hard.
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Offline loyd

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 06:01:00 PM »
Brent i have a small care package made up for you , will try to get it in the mail tomorrow. loyd

Offline tippit

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 08:35:00 PM »
The other good test for temper and edge holding sharpness is to see how many critters it skins without sharpening.  This past Bear Quest, I threw about 10 different knives out and let the guys do what they wanted with them.  It was incredible for me to see which designs worked best.  Plus I did different tempering to see how well the edge held up.  Got more info than any other testing so far...Doc
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Offline loyd

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 04:44:00 PM »
its on its way have fun, i want to see pics. loyd

Offline jindydiver

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 08:10:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tippit:
The other good test for temper and edge holding sharpness is to see how many critters it skins without sharpening.  This past Bear Quest, I threw about 10 different knives out and let the guys do what they wanted with them.  It was incredible for me to see which designs worked best.  Plus I did different tempering to see how well the edge held up.  Got more info than any other testing so far...Doc
I do a similar thing. One knife out of each batch gets given to my hunting buddy (who is notoriously hard on knives) and he tests it for function and performance. He is suitably brutal on me if I have made a dud

 
.

Mick

Offline kbaknife

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Re: Knife blade hardining.
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2008, 02:19:00 PM »
I’m a frequent visitor to Trad Gang, as well as a professional knifemaker. Please allow me to assist in flattening out your learning curve here a little bit on getting your steel hard.
It can be a rather daunting task to get things all identified and controlled, but with just the simplest of actions, you can make a serviceable blade.
First and foremost, you need to identify your steel type/classification. Different steel types contain different alloys and these effect the manner in which they will harden. Different temperatures and quenching media all come into play.
Here’s a basic procedure:
Heat up a piece of steel until it becomes non-magnetic and then cool quickly.
Simple, right?
At first glance.
One good thing is that all ferrous steel becomes non-magnetic at 1413 degrees. That is easily demonstrated! Heat up a piece of steel until a magnet no longer sticks to it!
That proves that atomically you have changed the condition of the steel. It is at that point that, depending on the steel type, you need to drop it’s temperature in only a few seconds to below 900 degrees.
Some need to make this drop in as little as 1 second, and others take as long as 4 seconds.
Too slow - no cigar.
Too fast - no cigar.
That is where the proper quench oil comes into play.
Firstly, canola oil is for cooking French fries.
Quenching oil is for cooling steel.
It is basically mineral oil, BUT! with special additives that absorb heat at a particular rate for the steel at hand. That is why there are different quenching oils for different steels, due to the rate of cooling necessary for that steel’s alloy content.
Have a known steel, but use the wrong oil, and you will fail.
W1 steel – quench in Water! O1 steel – quench in oil! A2 steel – air quench! And so on.
Then there are different oils for different steels speeds.
Here’s what happens – you bring a piece of steel up to that non-magnetic temperature and you have changed the steels condition. If you just let it cool slowly, it RETURNS to the same condition it was in when you started – soft.
You can watch it go black, and with your magnet, check as it slowly returns to a magnetic state.
But, if you heat it up to that non-magnetic condition and then quench it quickly in the appropriate quench media and cool it to below 1000 degrees at the proper rate for THAT steel, you “freeze” the steel atoms in a condition that is hard, because you stopped it from RETURNING to the condition it WANTED to go to – SOFT.
However, you have paid a price. It is really hard, but also brittle. It is not happy here.
So, we “temper” the steel to slightly soften and relieve the hardening stresses that have been induced in the alloy matrix.
Somewhere above I saw the temp of 1650 degrees or something like that. That’s way to high for the simple steels you will normally be using. A high temp for a chromium steel is 1525.
And, the mentioned tempering temp of 300 is way to low. More like 350 – 425 depending on how hard it got and the steel type.
Search you area for a gallon or two of medium speed quenching oil. A gallon can be ordered from Brownelle’s. I guess in a pinch, you would use Vet grade mineral oil from your local feed store. It will work for medium speed steels, but not the high carbon tool steels.
See, some oils remove the heat too slowly for “fast” steels. The steel will actually return to that “soft” state faster than a medium speed oil can remove the heat! Get it?
Some tool steels require the heat to be removed from 1500 degrees or so down to under 1000 degrees in less that 1 second!
Medium speed oils like mineral oil just won’t handle it.
That’s why so many new makers get frustrated by having good quality steel, but are quenching in the wrong media and can’t seem to get the steel hard! The oil is too slow.
Some guys quench in water and the blade cracks! The water is too fast!
Or, they don’t get that steel up to non-magnetic and change the steels condition. In that case, it won’t harden even if you have the correct quench media.
Lot of stuff to consider.
Know your steel.
Have the right quench media.
Get it up just past non-magnetic.
Hold it at the temp as long as you can without going too high.
Quench in the right stuff.
Do your research!
Good luck, guys.
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