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Author Topic: Heat Treat Ovens  (Read 416 times)

Offline farmboy

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Heat Treat Ovens
« on: December 16, 2009, 10:07:00 PM »
For those of you who use an oven, How critical is the speed of which you get the knife from the oven into the quench?

Obviously the faster the better, but dont you loose a lot of heat when you open the door?  Iknow stupid question but i dont have an oven.

I am lookin at buying one so I can play around with some of the higher end stainless and also get consistent results with simple carbon steels.

thanx....Scott

Offline Loosenock

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 11:48:00 PM »
Scott I have been making knives as a hobby for about 35 years.  The last 15 I have forged my blades and used a Paragon oven for heat treating.  Time is critical when your going from your oven to the quench.  I heard that 1 second was critical but I don't know how in the world anyone could quench with only one second.

The oven is extremely hot (1475 degrees F) for 1095/O-1 when you open the door.  The mass of the blade will retain  pretty well while it is still in the oven.  The tang will loose heat through contact transfer when you grab it with your tongs.  I always have my oil (Brownells tough quench) as close as I can to the oven.  Once I have a secure grip on the tang I come out of the oven, down to the floor and as STRAIGHT into the quench as I can.  I try not to move the blade at all while it is in the quench and hold it as steady as I can.  I would think that from the time I open the door until the blade is in the quench is about 3 to 4 seconds.

I only work with high carbon steels.  Stainless steels I understand are air quenched.  Never tried it, but I heard you could use a fan blower or even an air compressor hose and nozzle to quench with.

Best of luck.

Loose
Joe

Offline farmboy

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2009, 12:10:00 AM »
Thanx! i deffinately get it.  Yes from what ive read stainless is air quenched.  I have also heard of plate quenching stainless using 2 big blocks of aluminium.  Apparently it prevents warpage and you end up with a harder blade?

Offline kbaknife

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2009, 03:13:00 AM »
That facet of knife making is one of the most important, yet most misunderstood, parts of knife making there is.
This is why I and Lin repeatedly profess using the CORRECT quenching oil for knife making.

It's two in the morning here, so I hope this comes across right - it's NOT the time in getting TO the quench.
You could probably walk across the room if your blade is hot and thick enough. It'll hold the heat just fine.
The important factor is the SPEED of the OIL!!
To avoid what is called the PEARLITE NOSE, (which looks like a "nose" when drawn on a graph of time/temperature) once you have quenched the blade and the oil BEGINS extracting heat from the, say 1500 degree blade, the QUENCHANT needs to be able to extract the heat from the steel down to about 950-1000 degress in around 1 second!! But, of course, that is only for simple carbon steels like 1084/1095/W1/W2.
If the steel does NOT get below this temp, (950 in UNDER one second!) the steel will REVERT TO PEARLITE, and NOT make the transformation to MARTENSITE.
When using deep hardening steels like O1, L6, 5160 or 52100, because of the higher alloy content, this Pearlite nose is the same temperatures, but you will have about 4-5 seconds instead of one second to get the steel below 950.
So, you use a SLOWER oil!!
Get it? It's once the steel has BEGUN its radical downward decline in temperature, as a result of the quench, that it needs to CONTINUE in that direction to UNDER 950 in a few seconds, or it will revert to a condition OTHER than what you want.
It's the SPEED OF THE OIL not the speed of the maker.
The relatively few degrees of temp you lose on the way from the heat source to the quench is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT.
I really hope a LOT of people on this forum read what I just wrote.
It was a really great question/topic and one that needed to be asked.
Maybe in the way it was asked, and in light of my answer, more guys will understand this basic aspect of making.
There is an EXTREME importance upon using the CORRECT QUENCHANT for the steel type being used. Goofy stuff like peanut oil and mineral oil and strange combinations of this and that, just do NOT have the correct additives to extract heat at the proper rate to avoid the Pearlite nose.
That's why so many new makers have such fits and failures in the beginning. Their oil doesn't get the heat out fast enough, and in all due honesty, the heat source itself is often insufficient as well. The combination of those two factors results in many, many failures and frustrations.
Then, instead of blaming the heat and the oil, they blame TIME in getting to the quench as the problem.
Hardening a blade is a piece of cake if the maker will only be humble enough to admit he has an insufficient heat source and the wrong quenchant.  
Good question!!
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline mater

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2009, 06:32:00 PM »
Good answer also, thanks. We do read this stuff, even if we dont reply with a comment.  Thanks Mark

Offline drewsbow

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2009, 06:50:00 PM »
Thanks Karl : Is there a guide to oils for different steel some place ? Drew
Try to be the person your dog thinks you are :0)
TGMM Family of the Bow
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BigJim 3 pc buffalo 48@28
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BigJim thunderchild 55@32 Jim's bow

Offline kbaknife

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2009, 07:57:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by drewsbow:
Thanks Karl : Is there a guide to oils for different steel some place ? Drew
Not that I know of.
Each oil spec has it's "speed" measured in seconds which indicates its capacity to extract heat from an industry standard sized piece of steel.
Then, it's the "steel worker's" responsibility to understand his TTT diagram which shows each type of steel's transformation rate from one condition to the next and to match the oil to the steel and what he wants to do with it.
Confused?
Don't be.
What we work with generally falls into one of two categories - shallow hardening or deep hardening.
Shallow would include such steels as 1070/1075/1080/1084/W1/W2.
Deep hardening would include O1/L6/5160/52100/CruForgeV.
Fast oil for shallow, medium oil for deep.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline Steve Nuckels

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2009, 09:20:00 PM »
Interesting!  Thanks!

I think I should frame that and hang it in my shop!


Steve
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Potomac Forge
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IN GOD WE TRUST

Offline Nosight

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2009, 10:32:00 PM »
Finally sopmeone explained the quench ????s with some clarity....

Thanks Karl...

Later.....Buzz
Remember...aim small miss small...

Offline Bobby Urban

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2009, 02:17:00 PM »
So what do you use and where do we get it?

Fast Oil:            

Medium Oil:

Best alternatives for both that can be picked up locally, ie. hardware store etc...(if there is such a thing)  

Thanks

Offline kbaknife

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2009, 03:02:00 PM »
If you are interested in purchasing Parks brand oil, contact this guys right here:
[email protected]
His name is Patriq something.
He has an on-going thread here:
 http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569729
I don't know the guy and I gain nothing from this.
He sells both Parks #50 and Parks AAA.
You won't find quenching oil in your everyday hardware store.
I got the oils I need for a long time some years ago and am not too up-to-date on current suppliers.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline drewsbow

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Re: Heat Treat Ovens
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2009, 07:23:00 PM »
Karl: That makes it seem alot less complicated thanks . Drew
Try to be the person your dog thinks you are :0)
TGMM Family of the Bow
N.Y. Bowhunters member
BigJim 3 pc buffalo 48@28
BigJim thunderchild 55@31
BigJim thunderchild 55@32 Jim's bow

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