bottom line on quality of blades made from files

[Scott Roush]

Hi... as you've seen recently, I'm new to making knives and right now I'm hot in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding of this craft. So far I've been looking into techniques for doing stock removal on 'recycled steel': saw blades, files, etc.

So... When I get into something like this, I really want to get to the point of making something that has true quality and lasting usefullness.  My question.... Can you make high quality, lasting blades from recycled files? Are modern files worth using?  Is there an exact point in time in which the steel in files became inferior? Can inferior steel in files be compensated for by more exacting hardening/tempering techniques??

I'm currently in the process of gathering resources... so what would be a good book for understanding the qualities of steel for knife making?

Thanks folks!

[kbaknife]

What methods and tools will you be using to turn that file into a blade?

[Ragnarok Forge]

Modern files suck!  Most will not harden properly and are very brittle.  Old, as in 1950's and older all work great, a few were still good for knives into the late 60's but not most.  I hit auctions and farm sales to find really old files that will work.  Flea markets sometimes have them as well.  Use your search engine on the web and you will find tons of references for steel and it's qualities.  I highly reccomend the Machinists Handbook for anyone wanting to work steel.  It covers a lot of what you want to know.  Look for an older used version on Fleabay and it will have the blacksmithing sections in it as well.

[kbaknife]

Let's not be too hasty to say "......will not harden properly and are very brittle."
They are VERY brittle because they are VERY HARD!
If they were tempered back to the point where they were NOT brittle, they would be too soft to do their job as a file.
That's the reasoning of my question above. If the files - of UNKNOWN ALLOY - are going to be softened so as to be filed, drilled, etc., then how is one to know the proper hardening method to get the blade back to about 58-59 RC, with small grain size, if one does NOT know the steel type?
If a person is going to soften the file to work, then he'd be better off to just get a new piece of KNOWN steel bar stock, that comes spherodized annealed, and start from scratch with easy to use tools and methods.
It's only AFTER one learns all the in and outs of basic heat treating that it should be suggested that he go off into the realm of working with unknown steel types.
As they are, old files OR new files are too hard to just try to remove everything that doesn't look like a knife. That's the way they are made.
But, if you get them too hot while working them, you'll blow the temper and end up with nothing.
Then, you'll need to re-harden and temper anyway, so you'd have been better off to use known steel to begin with!
Remember that we're talking from the perspective of a beginner.

[R H Clark]

Steel is so cheap I think you would be better off using known steel and heat treat methods known to get the best out of it.I think you would spend more money in gas looking for deals than the deal would be worth.

The only reason I see to work with scrap steel is if the nostalgic factor would promote the sale.Then you need to be sure you list the blade as old file steel or whatever.I think it would be a mistake to list a bowie as 5160 when forged from a truck spring unless you have the steel tested to be certain.

A rustic blade forged from an old buggy spring with a rustic mountain man sheath does have appeal just from the nostalgic factor.

[kbaknife]

Randy, you took the words right out of my mouth!
I was out working on a knife and thinking of this thread - I thought I had better come back and make another comment -
If your goal is to have fun, play with steel from all types of sources, learn the ins and outs of forging and how your tools work, and have neat stories to tell about how you came upon the knife steel, then by all means, use old files and saw blades, tines from ancient hay rakes and leaf springs from conestoga wagons, etc.
But, if your goal is make the BEST knife you can make with as few unknowns as possible, then spend a few bucks on newly made steel of known alloy with specific heat treating recipes and put more time and resources into improving your ability to offer fantastic knives!
Like Randy said above, you'll end up spending that same $$ trying to figure out how to properly work with files and other "unknowns", end up frustrated and with a knife of unknown quality.

[Kevin Evans]

Scott I belive in what the guys are telling you so much ,I'll send you some steel .Give me your address??
You'all be getting 5160 or 1084 your choice???
Send me a P.M.
After all a guy that likes bird dogs,and archery can't be all bad.
Then after you get it just listen and pay close attention to Karl

[LC]

Lots of good advice above but my take on it is just a little different. I love making my own equip from bows, strings, arrows, taxidermy and knives. I know it never will be up to the quality of professional made knives and bows you regularly see on this site but I don't sell my stuff either. My hats off with the utmost respect for guys like Karl, Len and several others who regularly and willingly post their knowledge of this subject. I read all of there posts and am amazed at their knowledge. I'm flat out blown away at the tortuer tests their knives are expected to pass. I know without a doubt my knives would never hold a candle to any of those tests but I can say my file knives pass my personal tests just fine. The one pictured along with the bow are my most recent makes. This bow has killed several critters now and the simple file knife has made meat of them all with very very little sharpening. I love it. Most folks would laugh at my setup, a simple two brick forge fired by a JTH propane torch, a magnet, a glassware container with olive oil,a old toaster oven, a grizzly knife belt sander with two belt grits and two buffering wheels with only two buffing compounds. I mostly just use wood obtained locally for the handles and bows.

The old man I learned from probably falls somewhere in the spectrun between Karl(top of the line) and me (bottom of the line). He makes mostly muzzleloaders but averages making and selling 60 to 90 knives a month all from "unknown" steel. All damascus from everything from skidder cable, chainsaw chains, Harley Davidson cam chains and garage door chains. He annually donates one knife to the NRA national convention and last year if memory serves me right it went for 3 grand. He's uses a gas forge, trip hammer and Paragon furnace for tempering but still uses a magnet and olive oil! The demand for his knives is incredible. lol

I guess the bottom line is it's just up to each one of us as to how in depth we take anything. I've bought some known steel and after reading Karls posts realized with the equipment I've got I wasn't getting the most of the steel anyhow or for that matter even with my file steel. However this file knife field dressed, skinned and deboned two deer without a sharpening just this season and I just shaved hair with it before taking this picture.

 

[Scott Roush]

Wow... great responses guys.  It's kinda late for me so I will have re-read these tomorrow. But my first thought is this:  I want to learn to make high quality blades that will last and are easily sharpened... however, the thing that's attracted me to knife making is the aesthetics. I love the look of the 'brute' finish, pits, the rasp teeth left after grinding, etc.  But it has to be a functional tool.

Anyway... I'm off to bed!

[Scott Roush]

Oh... as to methods... Originally I was planning to use a woodfire to heat to non-magnetic (I have a huge, beautiful magnet) and cool slowly in an ash bucket.  Do the shaping, then harden and temper in oven. But now I have that kiln I mentioned in another thread that will give me more control over temperatures. So... now I need to get a process down that includes the use of that kiln....

BTW.... these farrier files are definitely pre 1950....

[Scott Roush]

LC.... beautiful work and thanks for that perspective.  One of the reasons I'm becoming interested in knife making is the idea of using local material and making knives completely out of loca materials.  I like the idea of files... but what about this leaf spring stuff? Sounds like there is good steel in that stuff. What do I look for if I head out to our local iron scrap yard???

[Maxximusgrind]

Hey guys,would it be wimpish to say I agree with everybody???Using known steel with known heat treat methods definately give consistant results.And there is alot of difference in files nowdays.and I must also include that I do not consider myself to be of the same caliber as many of you.But that being said,I worked for years at a place where they litteraly threw away high end files everyday and couldnt pass em up.and my favorite skinner was made from one and does a fine job on elk.So my opinion is that files definately can make a good knife,but probably wont be as easy as a known steel.I have also used both leaf and coil auto springs,same deal-they could work good but it may be a headache to figure out what you're working with.Dont know if it helps,it sure is alot to think about.
  Robert

[Scott Roush]

I've still been thinking about this. And you bring up something... your skinner from a file.  If you use skinners like I do... they get don't take a lot of abuse and the edge doesn't suffer that much as long as you steer clear of bones and don't try to slice through hair... meaning I pretty much only use em up inside the animal the way they are supposed to be used. And I only use em (at least on big game) once or twice a year.  So my point is that I'm gonna make skinners out of my farrier files with their unknown steel. Rather than, say, a camp knife.

[Maxximusgrind]

If it isnt tempered and quenched right,It won't work for field dressing.It will dull or you will have it brittle as glass.But I had a scrade that I thought was a really good knife,till I got this one bloody.what I am saying is if you like the looks of the file grooves and the fact that anyone who sees it will know what you started with,you can make some great stuff,but you'll have to put in some sweat equity.
 If you know what steel it is you can get a step by step on heat treatment.If not you have to check and see if your process works and if not change it.Just test the blades before the handles go on.
 Hope it helps
Robert

[prarieboy]

I mean to step on no ones toes!
 But steel is cheap is a very relitive term. Cheap to You may blow My budget.
 Easy to find might be hard to find for me.
 All I truely know is I can make a better knife from a file than I can afford to go and buy.
 I do it old school nothin is perfect about it.
 I am havin a ball doin it.
 I am a guy with the luxury of time not money.
 Thinkin out loud again I know I'm in trouble!!!!
C-Yall Bob

[kuch]

not in trouble bob, kinda like bowhunting...lots of different things will work . i don't have to put food on the table by making knives ...i do it purely fore pleasure. there's a difference ...yes i want to make the best knife i can but the "pressure" and time frame of hving fun vs. making a living sets some different parameters.i'll make 'em out of files and will make 'em out of known steel ...for fun.i guy that is providing for his family must keep up with the competition and have less variables and may not have the luxury of a slower learning curve.

[prarieboy]

I agree that a guy trying to make a living from this would for the most part have to use what is a known comodity so that his customers are getting the best quailty they are capable of making.
 For a person like Me that has a source of free steel from farmers(Friends)and am able to barter a knife for a pile of ferriers rasps.Buying would seem very expensive.
 I have tried to take the proper attitude toward this craft by doing some testing on the blades to refine skills needed to build a quaility knife from what I have at hand.
 Thanks to Lin and Longbowkid and the use of a site called junkyard steels.this was the easy part for Me.
 The hard part has been learning to shape and grind the blade and scales into something that truely looks pleasing and is funtional at the same time.
 My point like Kuch is there are lots of ways to look at this ol world and I believe that all of this helps not only our craft but each other also.
 C-Yall Bob

[Lin Rhea]

Here is a book that I really enjoy and use for ideas and inspiration : Blacksmithing Basics for the Homestead by Joe DeLaRonde

This a paper back, but is rather large and has great drawn illustrations with instructions on a lot of projects, including forging blades from files and heat treating them. I ordered this book for the blacksmithing information, but was pleasantly surprised by the step by step blade forging and heat treat information. It's worth more than the $15 I paid for it. Lin

[Scott Roush]

Great book Lin... I got it for the same reason and was happy to see the knife and axe info.

[kuch]

thanks lin, don't have that one...and i have a few.will do a search for it.  chad