Brining out hamon?

[Steve Nuckels]

I know this subject has been discussed before, but please induldge me,  I clay coated and quenched/tempered x3 a Nicholson file and it turned out very nice.

I etched for 30 min. wiping the oxides off half way thru. and finished to 1200 grit.  the temper line is visable, but I would like to bring it out more!  The second pic is out of the etch, before finish work.

Could I use Burchwood Casey Super Blue?

Any recommendations?


 

 

Steve
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Potomac Forge
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ABS Apprentice

[beaver#1]

what are you using to ecth wiht.  i use feric cloride, and it works very well.the longer its in there the darker it will get

[Steve Nuckels]

Yep, thats what I used!

Steve
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Potomac Forge
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ABS Apprentice

[Jeremy]

I finish the blade out to as far as I go, then etch in a dilute ferric chloride for about 30 seconds, then finger polish with flitz.

Here's the progression
 
 
 
 
 

Here's a better pic of the end result
 

To get a finish truer to the traditional Japanese finish requires you to polish above and below the temperline differently.

[Bobby Urban]

So the stove and Firplace goo goes on, you heat to non-magnetic in the forge and quench - then do you remove the goo before tempering in the oven?  Then sand, polish and sharpen to final profile before etch?  Then polish with Flitz?  

Am I on the right track

Bob Urban

[Jeremy]

Bob, that's pretty much it.  The entire process was explained to me by Terry Primos when I first got started making knives... I bugged him quite a bit and owe him a bunch.

The fireplace mortar (the stuff rated to 3000 degrees) dries almost instantly in the forge.  After the blade reaches it's critical temp I quench the whole blade immediately.  I crack off any remaining mortar when I'm wiping the oil off, then hit it briefly on a dull 80 grit belt to clean it off.  I check with a file to make sure the edge hardened (the back will be soft) then temper.  After that I go through the grits until I'm done hand rubbing the blade (I generally stop at 600 grit for a working knife - gives a nice satin finish that doesn't mar as easily as a mirror polish)  Then I etch for 20-30 seconds in a 1:1 mix of ferric chloride:vinegar (used to be 1:2 mix of ferric chloride:water)  Then finger polish with Flitz.  You can do the whole blade together, or concentrate on one area or the other.

To mimic a Japanese polish use a more aggressive polish (or stones or paper) initially on the area above the hamon to get a very bright finish and barely touch below it... stop when it looks frosted.  The end result is nice, but even the "easy" way to do it takes too long!

[Bobby Urban]

thank you

[Steve Nuckels]

Thanks Jeremy, you have been very helpful providing good information and materials to me.

I followed your advise and it did enhance the hamon.

Steve
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Potomac Forge
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ABS Apprentice

[Scott Roush]

Steve.. I've been working on hamons all week. Got a few decent ones from edge quenches in brine.  I wanted a 'matte' finish so I sanded to 600 using WD40 as my oil, etched with dilute FeCl and rubbed with a paste I made from FFF pumice powder (from Rockler) and synthetic motor oil.  I got that tip from a japanese sword smith (although he would take it much finer than 600).  You can also get finer FFFF pumice.  I will be posting stuff soon....

[Steve Nuckels]

Thanks Scott,  looking foward to seeing your work.

Steve
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Potomac Forge
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ABS Apprentice

[kbaknife]

A quick message here is in order.
Sort of need to get words defined.
A "hamon" will only be visible from a shallow hardening steel that has been fully quenched.
This may or may not require clay, depending on how the blade was brought up to heat, speed of the quenchant, and steel thickness.
A "quench line" will be visible when only part of the blade is quenched.
That's not a hamon.
Now, a "differential hardening line" will be visible when a DEEP hardening steel has been clayed, fully austenized, and full-blade quenched.
In other words, don't expect to do the same thing with 5160 that is done with W1 or 2 and hope to expose the "hamon". It won't have one. It MIGHT have a differential hardening line where the clay was - maybe - but it's not a hamon.
The spine might be soft, but then maybe not, because 5160 will air harden!
Seriously, there is just a TON of variables.
But, the fun part is, you're guarenteed to  have a good time and the stuff you come up with ccan be outrageous.
This is a hamon:

 

[Jeremy]

http://www.dfoggknives.com/Metallurgical/METALLURGICAL%20REPORT.htm

An analysis of the different structures in a differentially hardened 1095 blade.

[Scott Roush]

thanks... i didn't realize the diffrence....

[Jeremy]

It's all about the different mix of crystal structures in the transition zone between the hard edge and softer spine.  You can manipulate that transition zone by affecting the rates of cooling - varying clay thickness, position, quenching media, and yes, edge quenching.

Like Karl said, you won't be able to get this with all steel types (at least not easily) and it will take some playing around to get it working the way you want it to.

[kbaknife]

Good stuff here.
One thing to keep in mind that in creating a true hamon - as opposed to a hardening line or a quench line - in shallow hardening steel, the clay does NOT dictate the configuration of the hamon, it only influences it.
For example, in the picture I posted above, where the hamon is exposed is NOT precisely where the clay was placed, and in actual fact, I had absolutely NO CLAY whatsoever near the rounded integral "bolster" area. This simply did not harden because:
1. This thickness of steel won't through-harden in
2. Shallow hardening steel.
Hence, the steel thickness itself created the hamon.
The clay only influenced it.

[Scott Roush]

I'm having a problem with a knife that has a nice quench line.  It is a 7 inch blade and there is no plunge line. Just ground even from the tang to the tip.  I've sanded it to 800 and you can see a beautiful wavy, frosty line.  But when i etch it in FeCl, it refuses to etch (in the same manner)in the ricasso area.  This blade has a nice distal taper and that happens to be the thickest area.  It etches differently than both the area in front of (the edge) and behind (the spine).  It's frustrating because it just doesn't look right.  Originally, I had a plunge line and decided to grind it away after hardening... so I'm assuming that this area is much softer and therefore etches differently...?  Other than re-quenching or just going with a hand-rubbed finish and no etching???